Why does my God allow children to die? Is he evil?

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

And those were indentured servants-- they sold themselves into slavery and yes some sold their children as well.

Nope that's slavery. Not indentured servants. It plainly says slaves.

They were owned. Hebrew slaves works be released. Regular non-Israelites unfortunately were for life. They didn't sell their kids their kids were possessions.

 

[CG Didymus]

I would argue that Adam and Eve are allegorical. Given what we have learned now which many will of course Deny, it would not be possible for two humans to populate the earth especially in a World as cruel and crude as this one is supposed to be, not to mention that the genetic variety found in our race would not have been possible. But the burden is on you to prove that the serpent in the garden was actually the devil. As I don't think anyone of Jewish descent would even at all entertain that thought. As even in genesis it says "the serpent was the craftiest" indicate that it was the nature of the serpent itself, something found in large amounts of mythology that snakes are crafty, sneaky creatures.

Here's a wiki article on satan in various religions. Look at the one from Judaism

Satan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's why I mention picking and choosing. As Christians we tend to just grab parts of the Jewish midrash's(sp) that we agree on and discard the others. The concept of original sin, does not work in the context of the Old Testament.

And again we have to willfully ignore the evidence that comes before us. Continuously we pick and choose what fits in our reality and disregard the others. That tendency to cling to the old and reject the new. For instance if I asked you who wrote the gospels you would give those names on the top. But scholarly concensus says no, rather we accept what was said long ago as true.

I'm glad you noticed that. It's amazing how it is assumed the serpent was satan. And, like you said, it is not how Jews see it. Christians need a fallen angel that is named satan and they need him to be the one who deceived Eve. But, strange why would that be his name from the start? Was he created to be the adversary? Did God know from the beginning that he would rebel and cause Adam and Eve to sin? If he did, and I don't see how a Christian could think otherwise, then don't blame the dumb humans.

 

[kjw47]

I'm glad you noticed that. It's amazing how it is assumed the serpent was satan. And, like you said, it is not how Jews see it. Christians need a fallen angel that is named satan and they need him to be the one who deceived Eve. But, strange why would that be his name from the start? Was he created to be the adversary? Did God know from the beginning that he would rebel and cause Adam and Eve to sin? If he did, and I don't see how a Christian could think otherwise, then don't blame the dumb humans.

rev 12:9--rev 20:2

 

[SkepticThinker]

rev 12:9--rev 20:2

Great. Thanks god.

He couldn't have hurled him into outer space or something?

 

[kjw47]

Great. Thanks god.

He couldn't have hurled him into outer space or something?

One thing is for sure--- God who hangs trillions of ton planets onto nothing, and takes--Ashe,dust, and water--walla a mortal human being. Knows exactly what and why things are the way they are at present. So one must agree it has to be this way for right now. Gods kingdom will put and end to all wickedness and human suffering. That is where the real life is--one needs to live for that now by doing this( Few can) Matt 16:24-- and listening to Jesus carefully and applying.

 

[SkepticThinker]

One thing is for sure--- God who hangs trillions of ton planets onto nothing, and takes--Ashe,dust, and water--walla a mortal human being. Knows exactly what and why things are the way they are at present. So one must agree it has to be this way for right now. Gods kingdom will put and end to all wickedness and human suffering. That is where the real life is--one needs to live for that now by doing this( Few can) Matt 16:24-- and listening to Jesus carefully and applying.

What? The planets are not hanging from anything.

And no, I dont agree it must be this way. Hence my comment about it.

 

[adi2d]

One thing is for sure--- God who hangs trillions of ton planets onto nothing, and takes--Ashe,dust, and water--walla a mortal human being. Knows exactly what and why things are the way they are at present. So one must agree it has to be this way for right now. Gods kingdom will put and end to all wickedness and human suffering. That is where the real life is--one needs to live for that now by doing this( Few can) Matt 16:24-- and listening to Jesus carefully and applying.

But it just seems to be excuses. "It has to be this way" no it doesn't HAVE to be this way. That's the whole point. Its this way because God made it this way (atts)

 

[kjw47]

But it just seems to be excuses. "It has to be this way" no it doesn't HAVE to be this way. That's the whole point. Its this way because God made it this way (atts)

The issue of Gods universal sovereignty was brought into question at the rebellion in the garden of Eden. In front of all creation( angels)--God says mortals should only know good--satan says its best for all to know good and bad, then, since they would be like God--they wouldn't need God to tell them how to live and find real happiness. The issue must be settled once and for all time--it is almost done--Gods kingdom is at hand. If the issue isn't settled once and for all time, it could occur again and that is no good, it has to be this way. Or God could have killed the rebels on the spot and no one who ever lived would have been born--the only choices available--God chose right.
Listen to his son to find the narrow gate.

 

[adi2d]

The issue of Gods universal sovereignty was brought into question at the rebellion in the garden of Eden. In front of all creation( angels)--God says mortals should only know good--satan says its best for all to know good and bad, then, since they would be like God--they wouldn't need God to tell them how to live and find real happiness. The issue must be settled once and for all time--it is almost done--Gods kingdom is at hand. If the issue isn't settled once and for all time, it could occur again and that is no good, it has to be this way. Or God could have killed the rebels on the spot and no one who ever lived would have been born--the only choices available--God chose right.
Listen to his son to find the narrow gate.

Ok help me understand. Why couldn't God have told Adam and Eve and the rest not to eat of the tree. Told them what would happen if they did AND block their access to it (like he did later with the tree of life? Why even allow satan in the garden?


Many years ago I lived in an apartment with a swimming pool. I told my kids not to go near it and what could happen if they did. That didn't stop me from watching them and ensuring that the gate was shut so they couldn't get in even if they wanted to.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

rev 12:9--rev 20:2

I see you didn't read my link.

The idea of the serpent being the devil started after the return from Babylon and Persian rule. As a sovereign nation Israel/Judah did not have te concept of duality of two forces of good and evil. Isaiah makes it no clearer than when it is written that God visits good and evil(calamity) upon everyone.

When Saul is overtaken the evil spirit is that of The Lord. It is the angel of death that fought for Gideon(something people forget now a days as death is seen as an enemy). Even Jesus reference to Peter as satan (get thee behind me satan)is a call back to satan being a title not a person.

Yet the Persians practitioners of Zoroaster had beliefs of cosmic good and cosmic evil and then you start seeing further change as the ill that falls on man is distanced from God and put on to another being in Judaism. Something that they tried their hardest to squash.

 

[CG Didymus]

Ok help me understand. Why couldn't God have told Adam and Eve and the rest not to eat of the tree. Told them what would happen if they did AND block their access to it (like he did later with the tree of life? Why even allow satan in the garden?


Many years ago I lived in an apartment with a swimming pool. I told my kids not to go near it and what could happen if they did. That didn't stop me from watching them and ensuring that the gate was shut so they couldn't get in even if they wanted to.

It's lucky a talking snake wasn't there to open the gate for them, because then you would have had to curse them.

 

[CG Didymus]

rev 12:9--rev 20:2

What part of the Hebrew Scriptures is "rev"? Christians made the devil/satan who he is, not the Jews. It doesn't count if hundreds of years later Christians say the serpent was satan. It doesn't count when they find verses that pretend to talk about the devil being cast out of heaven. You well know how some Christians can fabricate things,like the trinity for example.

 

[Rapture Era]

I would argue that Adam and Eve are allegorical. Well, you can argue that they are allegorical all you want but it doesnt change the fact that they were the first human beings on the earth! Given what we have learned now which many will of course Deny, it would not be possible for two humans to populate the earth especially in a World as cruel and crude as this one is supposed to be, not to mention that the genetic variety found in our race would not have been possible. How is it not possible?
Here is something that might help,
Bible Timeline and World History
Dont forget, people in those days lived to be 7,8, 900 years old. Methuselah is the oldest recorded human being, died at the ripe old age of 969! But the burden is on you to prove that the serpent in the garden was actually the devil. Well, no, actually I dont have to prove anything, the Bible says he was, as Christians thats all we really need. (Revelation 12:9)
9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
Believe it or dont believe it, doesnt matter to me.

Read more: Was Satan the serpent in Genesis chapter 3?​

As I don't think anyone of Jewish descent would even at all entertain that thought. As even in genesis it says "the serpent was the craftiest" indicate that it was the nature of the serpent itself, something found in large amounts of mythology that snakes are crafty, sneaky creatures. Where do you think those that believed in mythology got it from?
Doesnt matter if the jews would entertain the thought or not. Scripture says he was, what can I tell ya? As far as the serpent being the craftiest, it has nothing to do with the nature of the snake, but it has everything to do with the evil spirit manifesting itself within the snake which makes it the great deceiver! Here are some other names if you care to look, this dudes a real piece of work! There is a reason why he is called the father of lies! He's got so many people confused they dont know what they believe which is fine with him! Actually he doesnt really care what you believe, he would love for everyone not to even believe he exists for that matter. But whatever you do, dont believe in Christ as your savior! Because for those that do, he's lost control over them forever, and that really ****** him off!
Names of Satan, other names for Satan

Here's a wiki article on satan in various religions. Look at the one from Judaism

Satan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's why I mention picking and choosing. As Christians we tend to just grab parts of the Jewish midrash's(sp) that we agree on and discard the others. I dont know what you mean by "As Christians we" . . . . . what Christians are you talking about? I dont know of any Christians grabbing anything from a jewsish midrash. Our truth is from the bible. The concept of original sin, does not work in the context of the Old Testament.
Why not?

And again we have to willfully ignore the evidence that comes before us. What evidence do you speak of? Continuously we pick and choose what fits in our reality and disregard the others. That tendency to cling to the old and reject the new. For instance if I asked you who wrote the gospels you would give those names on the top. But scholarly concensus says no, rather we accept what was said long ago as true.

Maybe you can tell me, who did write the Gospels? What does your scholarly concensus (whom ever that might be) say? So . . . . . .what exactly was said long ago?

 

[Ingledsva]

rev 12:9--rev 20:2

Revelations was written long after Jesus - by who know whom.

There is no evil Satan in Tanakh.

*

 

[kjw47]

What part of the Hebrew Scriptures is "rev"? Christians made the devil/satan who he is, not the Jews. It doesn't count if hundreds of years later Christians say the serpent was satan. It doesn't count when they find verses that pretend to talk about the devil being cast out of heaven. You well know how some Christians can fabricate things,like the trinity for example.

Revelation was written over 1900 years ago-- its prophecys are passing before the eyes of the earth as we speak.
satan is mentioned at Job 1:6-12

 

[kjw47]

I see you didn't read my link.

The idea of the serpent being the devil started after the return from Babylon and Persian rule. As a sovereign nation Israel/Judah did not have te concept of duality of two forces of good and evil. Isaiah makes it no clearer than when it is written that God visits good and evil(calamity) upon everyone.

When Saul is overtaken the evil spirit is that of The Lord. It is the angel of death that fought for Gideon(something people forget now a days as death is seen as an enemy). Even Jesus reference to Peter as satan (get thee behind me satan)is a call back to satan being a title not a person.

Yet the Persians practitioners of Zoroaster had beliefs of cosmic good and cosmic evil and then you start seeing further change as the ill that falls on man is distanced from God and put on to another being in Judaism. Something that they tried their hardest to squash.

Job 1:6-12

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Revelation was written over 1900 years ago-- its prophecys are passing before the eyes of the earth as we speak.
satan is mentioned at Job 1:6-12

Ha Satan is mentioned in Job.

You see several key things there

1. Satan is mentioned as walking into heaven (he was kicked out of heaven...and sealed on earth...so how could he be walking in heaven?)

2. God asks him where has he been (Ignoring that an omniscient God would not need an answer, this is not something you would ask someone who you had kicked out of your own home).

3. God cannot tolerate sin (If Satan is the embodiment of Sin or the first unrepetant sinner, he would not be able to stand in the presence of God).

4. God brings up Job (you have to assume that God just knew what Ha Satan was thinking)

5. God calls Job blameless (the story is definitely allegorical, but even if it was not, Job was obviously n ot perfect right, since no one but God is perfect, yet still considered blameless and upright).

6. Ha Satan says "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land.--job 1:10 But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.--Job 1:11

Stretch out YOUR hand. Not "let me stretch out my hand" but YOUR hand, referring to God.

7. God gives Satan permission to go do whatever he wished to Job as long as it does not result in Jobs death. God gives the permission, it is not Satan acting of own accord.

Using Job to defend the Christian Idea of Satan does not work.

And when God is confronted by Job, Gods response boils down to "I'm God, I do what I want"

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Maybe you can tell me, who did write the Gospels? What does your scholarly concensus (whom ever that might be) say? So . . . . . .what exactly was said long ago?

1. Adam and Eve are not fact. No evidence of their existence exists outside of the Bible, not to mention it flies in the face of all biology for two humans to propogate a species. Even if however you want to go with the route of reality, they certainly would not have been the first humans.
a. You'll notice that Genesis 1, says that God created Man and Woman (not out of dust, and not separate). Genesis 2, has God create Adam and place him in the Garden, followed by later creating Eve. The storie of Genesis can be regarded as either two separate accounts of creation Or the second chapter is an explanation in more detail of the 1st chapter.
The problem with that is that you would need to complete ignore the verse that says "Cain knew his wife" later on in Genesis. The account of Genesis has Adam and Eve producing Cain, then Producing Abel, followed by Cain slaughtering Abel.

So who was Cain's wife? Was it a sister not mentioned? Seth is later mentioned after Abel has passed. Or was it another woman?

If you accept it was his sister, you're more than welcome to, but that would be ignoring biology. Which I'm sure you are fine to do.

2. You of course are ignoring that all those 7-900 year old people...are not fact. As there is no evidence of their existence. There isn't even archeological evidence of the existence of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob or Moses.

The Bible does not say it is the word of God, because the Bible is a composite of books, books that have theological, poetic, historical, and mythological natures. There is no indication at all that these books were supposed to be put together into one book, and even when that was done, there was still not a full consensus on what books belonged there. You also ignore that these were oral traditions. I'm not sure if you ever played the game telephone as a child or perhaps with your own children, if you have you would know that oral communication is unreliable.

Adam and Eve - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

3. I also didn't know that you took the book of Enoch as part of biblical theology, because it is rather obvious that is where Revelations is drawing inspiration from. It is the book fo Enoch that speaks of the rebellion of angels.

Since you didn't read the link I put I"ll give post it for you

The Second Book of Enoch, also called the Slavonic Book of Enoch, contains references to a Watcher (Grigori) called Satanael.[17] It is a pseudepigraphic text of an uncertain date and unknown authorship. The text describes Satanael as being the prince of the Grigori who was cast out of heaven[18] and an evil spirit who knew the difference between what was "righteous" and "sinful".[19] A similar story is found in the book of 1 Enoch; however, in that book, the leader of the Grigori is called Semjâzâ.

4. Pre-tribulation rapture theology was developed in the 1830s by John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren,[12] and popularized in the United States in the early 20th century by the wide circulation of the Scofield Reference Bible.[13]

I wanted to post that because I notice your name was Rapture Era.

You are of course under no obligation to believe any of what I have written here and I doubt that it will convince you to look explore any further.

 

[1robin]

To switch your words around a bit--Anybody (like someone claiming to be a prophet) can make anything morally right by claiming God said it. IRobin acts as if there is only one definition and moral code of the supposed "One God." He is many and people have built their moral standards around their own definitions of that "One God." He is whatever people make him to be. 1Robin's version is very much like a fundamentalist/conservative God. That's the one, that if he exists, does seem very evil. He's nothing like the God that is described in Psalm 91 (Koldo's post #1612). In fact, he's fickle. He keeps changing the rules himself. One time he'll say, "Love thy neighbor" and the next "Go kill your neighbor and all his children and livestock." One time he'll say, "I love my creation" the next he's flooding it and saying "I'm sorry I created man." An absolute moral standard from that guy? Come on 1Robin.

Christianity has used the same definitions for God as the Hebrews did and they have remained static for 5000 years. No one is redefining God so he may fit where we wish him to. We take him as he was described by bronze age men incapable of knowing what needed to be faked to answer questions in the 20th century. God does not declare morality into existence. He is morality and declares it for our benefit. No matter what "problems" are invented and contrived to allow dismissal of God by those who wish to they are infinitely worse for a human based morality. We have changed laws as often as opinion because that is what it is based on. We are no closer to a moral solution to out obvious sickness than we were 100,000 years ago, in fact were further away.

 

[1robin]

Where do you get these ideas?

About 4000 years of philosophy and 5000 of theology, scholarly debates for a few thousand more, the greatest thinkers in history, and common sense.

Human worth is not dependent on a god.

Yes it is at least in the context we are discussing. When it comes to declaring equality an actual truth unless God made men that way who ever claimed it would be lying. Either God endowed life with equality, value, and sanctity or it does not have any. Evolution without God has never created two equal things in history and would easily justify claiming humans and races especially are not equally developed. Exactly hat are you worth if God does not exist? What makes you equal with anyone or anything else? Jefferson could not make that argument even though he was no Christian.

We have evolved to the point where we have personal, cultural, and collective moral values, laws, and "worth."

Not one single thing you mentioned equals worth nor all of them combined. You still attempting to assert reality into existence. Not to mention you have no way to know evolution produced a single thing you mentioned.

These are brought about by our experience - not god.

How does experience equate actual (not subjective and opinion based) worth to anything?

We are not without value because we were not created by a god.

The by all means what endowed us with this objective worth. It is impossible that we have so what else do you have?

Our "worth" is self realized, and implemented. Self preservation expanded to a group creates our moral ideas and laws.

So if I self realize that I am the greatest running back in history, I actually become that by thinking it. Do you have a way of detecting worth? How? You are still trying to smuggle in needed things that are only true with God but exclude God. It will not work and never has. Prove a single thing you claimed here is true as they are stated as fact. Your post was one long unknowable and unjustifiable assertion.