Why does my God allow children to die? Is he evil?

[1robin]

It's lucky a talking snake wasn't there to open the gate for them, because then you would have had to curse them.

How do you know serpent equals snake in the Hebrew culture from 4000 years ago?

 

[1robin]

What part of the Hebrew Scriptures is "rev"? Christians made the devil/satan who he is, not the Jews. It doesn't count if hundreds of years later Christians say the serpent was satan. It doesn't count when they find verses that pretend to talk about the devil being cast out of heaven. You well know how some Christians can fabricate things,like the trinity for example.

In Hebrew scripture Satan is the opposer of man and God. That eliminates any claim that he is viewed in a non-malevolent way by the Hebrews. As usually happens in progressive revelation old and sketchy concepts are amplified over time.

 

[adi2d]

How do you know serpent equals snake in the Hebrew culture from 4000 years ago?

Strange how you answer an obvious joke but ignore the honest question the joke was responding to

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

In Hebrew scripture Satan is the opposer of man and God. That eliminates any claim that he is viewed in a non-malevolent way by the Hebrews. As usually happens in progressive revelation old and sketchy concepts are amplified over time.

In Hebrew Ha-Satan can have many meanings.

Ha-Satan with the definite article occurs 13 times in the Masoretic Text, in two books of the Hebrew Bible:
Job ch.1–2 (10x),[8]
Zechariah 3:1–2 (3x).[9]
Satan without the definite article is used in 10 instances, of which two are translated diabolos in the Septuagint and "Satan" in the King James Version:
1 Chronicles 21:1, "Satan stood up against Israel" (KJV) or "And there standeth up an adversary against Israel" (Young's Literal Translation)[10]
Psalm 109:6b "and let Satan stand at his right hand" (KJV)[11] or "let an accuser stand at his right hand." (ESV, etc.)
The other eight instances of satan without the definite article are traditionally translated (in Greek, Latin and English) as "an adversary," etc., and taken to be humans or obedient angels:
Numbers 22:22,32 "and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him."
32 "behold, I went out to withstand thee,"
1 Samuel 29:4 The Philistines say: "lest he [David] be an adversary against us"
2 Samuel 19:22 David says: "[you sons of Zeruaiah] should this day be adversaries (plural) unto me?"
1 Kings 5:4 Solomon writes to Hiram: "there is neither adversary nor evil occurrent."
1 Kings 11:14 "And the LORD stirred up an adversary unto Solomon, Hadad the Edomite"[12]
1 Kings 11:23 "And God stirred him up an adversary, Rezon the son of Eliadah"
25 "And he [Rezon] was an adversary to Israel all the days of Solomon"

That's a list of uses for Adversary or Ha-Satan

Some cases it refers to a person much as when Jesus told Peter "To get behind me Satan"

In others as in the story of Job it is referring to a member of the divine council.

 

[1robin]

On this context, the correct sentence would actually be: Might makes mine.

In what way does the creation of something from nothing not endow the creator with sovereignty over that which was derived from nothing, even if that God was so weak in every other way as to have no might.

Our right to own property only exists because we, as in our societies, acknowledge it.

Rights do not exist because they are acknowledged. They exists because they are true. We are said to be endowed with the right to the pursuit of happiness. We would still have that right even if a future government stifled them. A right is something that our nature (given God) suggests should not be intruded on by man's laws. If God does not exist then no one has any right even if a government permits a concept to be practiced. Humans do not possess other rights to distribute. Your describing permissibility and legality not rights.

If you do not claim sovereignty and/or nobody attempts to enforce it, it doesn't exist on practice.

I was discussing foundations and sources not the capacity to force compliance. Just for the heck of it let me grant that might is a component of God's sovereignty just to see what it is you think is meaningful about this. Sovereignty is not derived from the capacity to enforce it. Force is used to enact sovereignty but is not it's source. However if it was, what do you think pointing out might's role in enforcement means?

Why wouldn't it be true?

Are you asking me why this is not true or why it has no justification? Wow. Just wow. So why don't we just kill all the babies now then, and save them this fall into wickedness followed by eternal torment that surely awaits then if we let them live to adulthood. Sounds like we'd be doing them a favor.

 

[1robin]

Strange how you answer an obvious joke but ignore the honest question the joke was responding to

Believing Satan is a snake is a common mistake people make about the Bible. I did not review all posts that preceded it.

 

[1robin]

In Hebrew Ha-Satan can have many meanings.

Ha-Satan with the definite article occurs 13 times in the Masoretic Text, in two books of the Hebrew Bible:
Job ch.1–2 (10x),[8]
Zechariah 3:1–2 (3x).[9]
Satan without the definite article is used in 10 instances, of which two are translated diabolos in the Septuagint and "Satan" in the King James Version:
1 Chronicles 21:1, "Satan stood up against Israel" (KJV) or "And there standeth up an adversary against Israel" (Young's Literal Translation)[10]
Psalm 109:6b "and let Satan stand at his right hand" (KJV)[11] or "let an accuser stand at his right hand." (ESV, etc.)
The other eight instances of satan without the definite article are traditionally translated (in Greek, Latin and English) as "an adversary," etc., and taken to be humans or obedient angels:
Numbers 22:22,32 "and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him."
32 "behold, I went out to withstand thee,"
1 Samuel 29:4 The Philistines say: "lest he [David] be an adversary against us"
2 Samuel 19:22 David says: "[you sons of Zeruaiah] should this day be adversaries (plural) unto me?"
1 Kings 5:4 Solomon writes to Hiram: "there is neither adversary nor evil occurrent."
1 Kings 11:14 "And the LORD stirred up an adversary unto Solomon, Hadad the Edomite"[12]
1 Kings 11:23 "And God stirred him up an adversary, Rezon the son of Eliadah"
25 "And he [Rezon] was an adversary to Israel all the days of Solomon"

That's a list of uses for Adversary or Ha-Satan

Some cases it refers to a person much as when Jesus told Peter "To get behind me Satan"

In others as in the story of Job it is referring to a member of the divine council.

Are you suggesting that Genesis, etc.. are not a part of Hebrew theological literature?

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Are you suggesting that Genesis, etc.. are not a part of Hebrew theological literature?

Genesis in reference to the serpent in the Garden?

It clearly says that "The serpent was the craftiest of Gods creations" I don't think that indicates that it was possessed, being used, or had willingly given itself up to God. This touches a bit on Animism, you find various stories of trickster animals in a lot of mythologies.

Which you seem to agree with.

My point is that Satan in Hebrew has quite a bit of meaning and in none of the contexts of the OT does it seem to indicate an adversary of God. It does indicate an adversary of Man, be it one that is sent by God to accuse or referring to a person who is just being a thorn in your side.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Yes it is at least in the context we are discussing. When it comes to declaring equality an actual truth unless God made men that way who ever claimed it would be lying. Either God endowed life with equality, value, and sanctity or it does not have any. Evolution without God has never created two equal things in history and would easily justify claiming humans and races especially are not equally developed. Exactly hat are you worth if God does not exist? What makes you equal with anyone or anything else? Jefferson could not make that argument even though he was no Christian.

You're still going with your "evolution leads to racism" idea, I see, while still comparing individuals, rather than races. In order for your claim to be true, you have to show that there are genetic differences at the race level, that demonstrate distinctions between human races (a completely social construct to begin with).

Until you can do that, your claim is empty.

 

[adi2d]

Believing Satan is a snake is a common mistake people make about the Bible. I did not review all posts that preceded it.

Well if you had "reviewed" my post(it was quoted on the post you responded to) you would have seen the gate was around a swimming pool. No mention of the biblical snake or serpent

 

[1robin]

Genesis in reference to the serpent in the Garden?

It clearly says that "The serpent was the craftiest of Gods creations" I don't think that indicates that it was possessed, being used, or had willingly given itself up to God. This touches a bit on Animism, you find various stories of trickster animals in a lot of mythologies.

Which you seem to agree with.

My point is that Satan in Hebrew has quite a bit of meaning and in none of the contexts of the OT does it seem to indicate an adversary of God. It does indicate an adversary of Man, be it one that is sent by God to accuse or referring to a person who is just being a thorn in your side.

Once it is granted that Hebrews is Hebrew scripture I will get into what case can be built upon it. So you do agree that teachings above and beyond the two books you gave exist in Hebrew texts? Your objection to Satan on the basis on what other religions state in common (though I doubt the extent of he commonality) does nothing to show that the Biblical concept of Stan is wrong.

 

[Rapture Era]

1. Adam and Eve are not fact. No evidence of their existence exists outside of the Bible, not to mention it flies in the face of all biology for two humans to propogate a species. Even if however you want to go with the route of reality, they certainly would not have been the first humans.
a. You'll notice that Genesis 1, says that God created Man and Woman (not out of dust, and not separate). Genesis 2, has God create Adam and place him in the Garden, followed by later creating Eve. The storie of Genesis can be regarded as either two separate accounts of creation Or the second chapter is an explanation in more detail of the 1st chapter.
The problem with that is that you would need to complete ignore the verse that says "Cain knew his wife" later on in Genesis. The account of Genesis has Adam and Eve producing Cain, then Producing Abel, followed by Cain slaughtering Abel.

So who was Cain's wife? Was it a sister not mentioned? Seth is later mentioned after Abel has passed. Or was it another woman?

If you accept it was his sister, you're more than welcome to, but that would be ignoring biology. Which I'm sure you are fine to do.

2. You of course are ignoring that all those 7-900 year old people...are not fact. As there is no evidence of their existence. There isn't even archeological evidence of the existence of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob or Moses.

The Bible does not say it is the word of God, because the Bible is a composite of books, books that have theological, poetic, historical, and mythological natures. There is no indication at all that these books were supposed to be put together into one book, and even when that was done, there was still not a full consensus on what books belonged there. You also ignore that these were oral traditions. I'm not sure if you ever played the game telephone as a child or perhaps with your own children, if you have you would know that oral communication is unreliable.

Adam and Eve - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

3. I also didn't know that you took the book of Enoch as part of biblical theology, because it is rather obvious that is where Revelations is drawing inspiration from. It is the book fo Enoch that speaks of the rebellion of angels.

Since you didn't read the link I put I"ll give post it for you

The Second Book of Enoch, also called the Slavonic Book of Enoch, contains references to a Watcher (Grigori) called Satanael.[17] It is a pseudepigraphic text of an uncertain date and unknown authorship. The text describes Satanael as being the prince of the Grigori who was cast out of heaven[18] and an evil spirit who knew the difference between what was "righteous" and "sinful".[19] A similar story is found in the book of 1 Enoch; however, in that book, the leader of the Grigori is called Semjâzâ.

4. Pre-tribulation rapture theology was developed in the 1830s by John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren,[12] and popularized in the United States in the early 20th century by the wide circulation of the Scofield Reference Bible.[13]

I wanted to post that because I notice your name was Rapture Era.

You are of course under no obligation to believe any of what I have written here and I doubt that it will convince you to look explore any further.

Well, my name "Rapture Era" only signifies my belief that we are living in the last days that Jesus described to his apostles. This catastrophic event will take place. I wont go into any details at this point because I dont believe you care anyway. The first mention of it was in the book of Thessalonians chapter 4 verse 17. Although the word "Rapture" in not in the text, it was derived from the greek word "harpadzo" meaning to take away quickly, to snatch up etc.. The apostle Paul describes it here when he wrote 1 Thessalonians in the year ca. A.D. 51. Yes, Darby and many others popularized it during the time you mentioned but the event itself has been on the books for thousands of years. I have answers to your statements above but it would all fall on deaf ears or lead to more rabbit trails so Im not going to waste my time but just let me say this; God says that He has put into every mans (and womans) mind of His existance through His creation. Evolution was never apart of our thinking untill it was jammed down our throats when we were little kids in school. Typically the reason people leave Christianity or this belief in God is because something bad happend to them or to someone in their family and they blamed God for it. You know, "If God loved me, why did he allow this to happen?" kind of thing. They never blame satan and his demons, they always blame God. Anyway, my question would be, what made you jump ship? You, meaning anyone who has this
attitude. Why did you turn against God or give up the belief in him?

 

[1robin]

You're still going with your "evolution leads to racism" idea, I see, while still comparing individuals, rather than races. In order for your claim to be true, you have to show that there are genetic differences at the race level, that demonstrate distinctions between human races (a completely social construct to begin with).

Until you can do that, your claim is empty.

I am "still doing so" on the strength of the logic behind it. I see you are attempting to categorize something as invalid because it was stated before. I do not remember a single claim you or any one else made that even rises to a challenge to my claims and in fact the same conclusion has been drawn by many people in the past and acted on. I do not have to show that genetic difference exists at the race level to show the obvious fact that evolution would have never produced two perfectly equal things. The only debate would concern how different the differences are and that would depend on which of the ten million versions of evolution you subscribe to today. In my views it would include behavior responses to environment and alone (even if no other distinction exists) would produce massive differences in capacity for self government and moral capability in governing others.

 

[1robin]

Well if you had "reviewed" my post(it was quoted on the post you responded to) you would have seen the gate was around a swimming pool. No mention of the biblical snake or serpent

As I said the snake issue is very common to Biblically ignorant debaters. If that was false assumption (I do not read every post which might impact every one I respond to as that is impossible or prohibitive then ignore it. I see that claim made in all sincerity constantly so even if an incorrect assumption it was a reasonable one.

 

[kjw47]

Ha Satan is mentioned in Job.

You see several key things there

1. Satan is mentioned as walking into heaven (he was kicked out of heaven...and sealed on earth...so how could he be walking in heaven?)

2. God asks him where has he been (Ignoring that an omniscient God would not need an answer, this is not something you would ask someone who you had kicked out of your own home).

3. God cannot tolerate sin (If Satan is the embodiment of Sin or the first unrepetant sinner, he would not be able to stand in the presence of God).

4. God brings up Job (you have to assume that God just knew what Ha Satan was thinking)

5. God calls Job blameless (the story is definitely allegorical, but even if it was not, Job was obviously n ot perfect right, since no one but God is perfect, yet still considered blameless and upright).

6. Ha Satan says "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land.--job 1:10 But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.--Job 1:11

Stretch out YOUR hand. Not "let me stretch out my hand" but YOUR hand, referring to God.

7. God gives Satan permission to go do whatever he wished to Job as long as it does not result in Jobs death. God gives the permission, it is not Satan acting of own accord.

Using Job to defend the Christian Idea of Satan does not work.

And when God is confronted by Job, Gods response boils down to "I'm God, I do what I want"

Satan raised more issues against God and his followers--yes God was protecting his from satan so satan couldn't get to them, but satan said that those would not follow him without everything God gives them and the protection. This issue had to be resolved as well--so the protection and material things were removed--yet Job stood strong.
But we see it was not God who stretched his hand out against Job, it was satan who had permission to. because the issues raised had to be resolved just like the issues raised against God in the garden of Eden.

 

[kjw47]

Ha Satan is mentioned in Job.

You see several key things there

1. Satan is mentioned as walking into heaven (he was kicked out of heaven...and sealed on earth...so how could he be walking in heaven?)

2. God asks him where has he been (Ignoring that an omniscient God would not need an answer, this is not something you would ask someone who you had kicked out of your own home).

3. God cannot tolerate sin (If Satan is the embodiment of Sin or the first unrepetant sinner, he would not be able to stand in the presence of God).

4. God brings up Job (you have to assume that God just knew what Ha Satan was thinking)

5. God calls Job blameless (the story is definitely allegorical, but even if it was not, Job was obviously n ot perfect right, since no one but God is perfect, yet still considered blameless and upright).

6. Ha Satan says "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land.--job 1:10 But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.--Job 1:11

Stretch out YOUR hand. Not "let me stretch out my hand" but YOUR hand, referring to God.

7. God gives Satan permission to go do whatever he wished to Job as long as it does not result in Jobs death. God gives the permission, it is not Satan acting of own accord.

Using Job to defend the Christian Idea of Satan does not work.

And when God is confronted by Job, Gods response boils down to "I'm God, I do what I want"

Satan wasn't kicked out of heaven until rev 12-- when war broke out in heaven.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I am "still doing so" on the strength of the logic behind it. I see you are attempting to categorize something as invalid because it was stated before. I do not remember a single claim you or any one else made that even rises to a challenge to my claims and in fact the same conclusion has been drawn by many people in the past and acted on. I do not have to show that genetic difference exists at the race level to show the obvious fact that evolution would have never produced two perfectly equal things. The only debate would concern how different the differences are and that would depend on which of the ten million versions of evolution you subscribe to today. In my views it would include behavior responses to environment and alone (even if no other distinction exists) would produce massive differences in capacity for self government and moral capability in governing others.

Whether you remember it or not, the conversation happened. You kept harping on minute differences between individuals and I kept pointing out to you that we're talking at the RACE level. You also tried to point out the subtitle of Darwin's book as some kind of justification for your claim that evolution is racist, which several people explained to you has little to nothing to do with human evolution. Remember yet?

You never did bother explaining to me what the differences are that make one race (only a social construct) radically different from another that would justify your statement that evolution is racist. That's what it would take to back up your statement.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Once it is granted that Hebrews is Hebrew scripture I will get into what case can be built upon it. So you do agree that teachings above and beyond the two books you gave exist in Hebrew texts? Your objection to Satan on the basis on what other religions state in common (though I doubt the extent of he commonality) does nothing to show that the Biblical concept of Stan is wrong.

Other religions? What other religions have I mentioned unless you are talking about Judaism in which case if you take away that aspect then you don't use much to go on for the NT

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Well, my name "Rapture Era" only signifies my belief that we are living in the last days that Jesus described to his apostles. This catastrophic event will take place. I wont go into any details at this point because I dont believe you care anyway. The first mention of it was in the book of Thessalonians chapter 4 verse 17. Although the word "Rapture" in not in the text, it was derived from the greek word "harpadzo" meaning to take away quickly, to snatch up etc.. The apostle Paul describes it here when he wrote 1 Thessalonians in the year ca. A.D. 51. Yes, Darby and many others popularized it during the time you mentioned but the event itself has been on the books for thousands of years. I have answers to your statements above but it would all fall on deaf ears or lead to more rabbit trails so Im not going to waste my time but just let me say this; God says that He has put into every mans (and womans) mind of His existance through His creation. Evolution was never apart of our thinking untill it was jammed down our throats when we were little kids in school. Typically the reason people leave Christianity or this belief in God is because something bad happend to them or to someone in their family and they blamed God for it. You know, "If God loved me, why did he allow this to happen?" kind of thing. They never blame satan and his demons, they always blame God. Anyway, my question would be, what made you jump ship? You, meaning anyone who has this
attitude. Why did you turn against God or give up the belief in him?

Fall on deaf ears? Why are you assuming that I would not take your points into consideration if you've extended to me the same courtesy? You say you have answers, it does no mean your answers are correct, but it dkesnt mean i wont listen to them. What I have presented to you are the evidences that present the origin of the being known in Christianity as Satan. Now if you want to say that Judaism had it wrong by all means you are welcome to do so, but please defend it.

As for me, I haven't turned from God, I simply do not agree with some points in Christianity especially relating to parts taken from Judaism, to me to be a part of something requires knowing its history, if you don't you are just participating in something that you have no idea what it means. I have met people who have turned away from God for number of reasons, some because bad things have happened to them, some because they just stopped believing and I've seen people come to God for various reasons as well.

If you think evolution is being shoved down people's throats that's fine you don't need to believe it. I have studied biology, and I'm still on the fence with evolution simply because in science things can be proven false. But given the evidence that we have, it is a well supported theory.

What I have found is that people tend to stick with what they knew and fear things that are new. The story of genesis has been circulating for over 2000 years. Modern science and researching is relatively new. So I'm not surprised that people would challenge science in regards to its discoveries regarding what was the accepted norm.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Satan wasn't kicked out of heaven until rev 12-- when war broke out in heaven.

And when did that occur? As the book of Enoch mentions that before the writin of revelations....