Why does my God allow children to die? Is he evil?

[Awoon]

So, has anyone figured out why her God allows children to die? Is he EVIL?

 

[CG Didymus]

In Hebrew scripture Satan is the opposer of man and God. That eliminates any claim that he is viewed in a non-malevolent way by the Hebrews.

What I heard from Jews that he was God's agent in testing humans. Where in the Hebrew Bible is he God's enemy?

As usually happens in progressive revelation old and sketchy concepts are amplified over time.

Interesting that you use "progressive" revelation. Has revelation stopped or is it still progressing? The Baha'i Faith says that it is still progressing and God's latest revelation to humans has made clear the misunderstood concepts of the past--like hell, the devil, the trinity and so on. Oh, and speaking of the trinity, didn't you say something about God being defined the same way. I think you meant by Christians and Jews wasn't it? So then the Hebrews defined God as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

 

[CG Didymus]

Strange how you answer an obvious joke but ignore the honest question the joke was responding to

If you were God how would you teach them to be careful around the pool? I guess you would have put your kids next to the pool, forget a fence. The day would have to be burning hot, and you'd tell them, warn them, that in no way are they allowed to go into the water or something bad will happen to them. Then, you'd invite the neighborhood bully (dressed like a serpent-like snake) to the pool to go swimming knowing he would tease and taunt your kids until they broke down and jumped into the pool. What could you do? They broke your rule. You'd have to punish them, maybe even curse all their descendents too. Fortunately, none of us are god. We'd never get away with that kind of behavior.

 

[CG Didymus]

As I said the snake issue is very common to Biblically ignorant debaters. If that was false assumption (I do not read every post which might impact every one I respond to as that is impossible or prohibitive then ignore it. I see that claim made in all sincerity constantly so even if an incorrect assumption it was a reasonable one.

So a snake is not a serpent? Sorry, I was ignorant of that fact. Thanks for straightening me out. But then a serpent is satan, an evil fallen angel? And, that's how even the Jews see it?

You really don't get the joke do you. You worry about a serpent being called a snake when calling the Christian devil the same as the Hebrew "satan" is not a problem?

 

[adi2d]

If you were God how would you teach them to be careful around the pool? I guess you would have put your kids next to the pool, forget a fence. The day would have to be burning hot, and you'd tell them, warn them, that in no way are they allowed to go into the water or something bad will happen to them. Then, you'd invite the neighborhood bully (dressed like a serpent-like snake) to the pool to go swimming knowing he would tease and taunt your kids until they broke down and jumped into the pool. What could you do? They broke your rule. You'd have to punish them, maybe even curse all their descendents too. Fortunately, none of us are god. We'd never get away with that kind of behavior.

Hey friend you might want to read my posts again. I was questioning why an all knowing creater of all would been outwitted by a snake(satan serpent). Why would God allow him in the garden? Why not put the cherebum and sword he used to guard the tree of life aroynd the tree of knowledge if He didn't want A and E to eat from it? It doesn't make sense the way it is written. Why that punishment for being conned when they knew so little?





Oh and since you asked so nicely. I tried to teach my children WHY the pool was so dangerous, taught them to swim.as soon as I could(one could float in the pool before she could walk) and tried to keep my eye on them every minute of every day. Not being an omni dad I couldn't but I tried. And I worried about that pool every day until we could move away from it


Now if I could plan that why couldn't God come up with a better plan than. Don't do it or tou will die?

 

[Ingledsva]

Where do you get these ideas?

About 4000 years of philosophy and 5000 of theology, scholarly debates for a few thousand more, the greatest thinkers in history, and common sense.

LOL! They got one heck of a lot of stuff WRONG!

And common sense would recognize evolution - not invisible beings - leading to ideas of self worth.

Human worth is not dependent on a god.

Yes it is at least in the context we are discussing. When it comes to declaring equality an actual truth unless God made men that way who ever claimed it would be lying. Either God endowed life with equality, value, and sanctity or it does not have any. Evolution without God has never created two equal things in history and would easily justify claiming humans and races especially are not equally developed. Exactly hat are you worth if God does not exist? What makes you equal with anyone or anything else? Jefferson could not make that argument even though he was no Christian.

Pure religious bull. You are starting from an unproved premise - that a god existed to do this. There is no proof of this and your argument collapses.

But we do know that people evolved - as did every emotion - feelings of worth, group worth, law, etc.

We have evolved to the point where we have personal, cultural, and collective moral values, laws, and "worth."

Not one single thing you mentioned equals worth nor all of them combined. You still attempting to assert reality into existence. Not to mention you have no way to know evolution produced a single thing you mentioned.

See above.

I might add - LOL - that "attempting to assert reality into existence," - is quite funny coming from someone that believes in an invisible man with no proof.

These are brought about by our experience - not god.

How does experience equate actual (not subjective and opinion based) worth to anything?

It is funny how you try to twist things.

I have science, - you have an invisible man.

I'm going to guess I'm closest to the facts.

We are not without value because we were not created by a god.

The by all means what endowed us with this objective worth. It is impossible that we have so what else do you have?

What do you not understand about evolution and the brain?

Our "worth" is self realized, and implemented. Self preservation expanded to a group creates our moral ideas and laws.

So if I self realize that I am the greatest running back in history, I actually become that by thinking it. Do you have a way of detecting worth? How? You are still trying to smuggle in needed things that are only true with God but exclude God. It will not work and never has. Prove a single thing you claimed here is true as they are stated as fact. Your post was one long unknowable and unjustifiable assertion.

You can claim to be the greatest running back - however interaction with other running backs will show what you are. Self aggrandizement is not the same thing as worth.

We evolved personal and external ideas of worth, and laws over time to allow people to live in groups. We have decided whom has worth - and these ideas are very obviously different in different ages, and cultures.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

NO! We are not BORN sinners - that is ridiculous.

Apparently this is an attempt to assert something into existence. Since me or you actually know this or can prove it let me move on to something that is known. We have a epidemic problem with evil that is getting worse. We have in our march toward the uberman or super secularism now have the capacity to kill everything on Earth and almost have twice. We are going the wrong direction and regardless of what we are born with or not we are heading towards a self imposed Armageddon, but the worst part is we are insane enough to think things are getting better. You can't fix what we are to stupid or corrupt to admit is broken.

Bull we can't prove it. Babies do not have the capability at birth to be sinners. Thus they are not "born sinners."

*

 

[johnhanks]

Typically the reason people leave Christianity or this belief in God is because something bad happend to them or to someone in their family and they blamed God for it.

Typically? Do you have data to back up that claim? I would suggest (with an equal lack of data) that people give up on religion because they no longer see any reason to believe in it.

And can you really straight-facedly propose that people stop believing in god because they think the god they just stopped believing in was responsible for their misfortune?

 

[Ingledsva]

When Adam and Eve were created they were perfect in a perfect world, which is what God intended. ...

Christians keep repeating this - however - if they were perfect they wouldn't have been able to sin, - so - they were NOT created perfect.

This is just a story.

*

 

[desideraht]

Well let me ask you Atheists would you attempt to comfort these mothers with your precept that there is no God? No heaven and no hell? That their children are reduced to dust as they came? That the man who murdered them who took his life is also Dust and there is no justice for them either? Both parties cease to exist, one guilty, one innocent, both have the same fate in the end.

Death is a part of Life. Death gives value to Life. We all come from the same Source, we all are made of the same material, we all face the same ultimate fate. Yes, regardless of our choices in Life. There is no punishment for wrongdoings nor is there a reward for good behaviour. You are simply supposed to be Good out of the kindness and compassion in your heart. If you are doing it for a reward, you are not truly Righteous. Justice in Death is a life of fulfillment and Enlightenment. Children are innocents, and while it is true that in a premature Death they are deprived of fulfillment and Enlightenment, they are also deprived of the atrocities in life. There is no special, cruel judgment singling them out. Everyone has to die and most do not die in glory.

Evildoings must be punished in life. It is our Duty to give Judgment to those who are among the living, for in Death there is no Judgment.

Life has no purpose whether the person lives a long life or dies young. It's only "purpose" is that which the individual ascribes to his or her own existence. A child has not likely had such a profound thought.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes it is at least in the context we are discussing. When it comes to declaring equality an actual truth unless God made men that way who ever claimed it would be lying. Either God endowed life with equality, value, and sanctity or it does not have any. Evolution without God has never created two equal things in history and would easily justify claiming humans and races especially are not equally developed. Exactly hat are you worth if God does not exist? What makes you equal with anyone or anything else? Jefferson could not make that argument even though he was no Christian.

What makes you equal WITH God? The Bible suggests that we're nothing more than "pots" that the "potmaker" is free use (or smash) as he pleases. Where's the worth of a human being in THAT equation?

 

[Rapture Era]

Fall on deaf ears? Why are you assuming that I would not take your points into consideration if you've extended to me the same courtesy? Because it doesnt seem to work that way here. If you are a Christian, the game is try and give em one liners and let them explain and put the burden of proof on them. Then give em another one liner and so on. Its kind of comical actually but thats why I say fall on deaf ears. You say you have answers, it does no mean your answers are correct, but it dkesnt mean i wont listen to them. See, you are already assuming that my answers are wrong! So why would you consider anything I have to say from the Christian perspective? Have you ever had people looking off into space as you were talking to them? I mean, whats the point? What I have presented to you are the evidences that present the origin of the being known in Christianity as Satan. Now if you want to say that Judaism had it wrong by all means you are welcome to do so, but please defend it. This is where two opposing belief systems will just go round and round and round and I am not interested in doing that, at all! You are telling me I have to defend the origin of satan? I will defend it by using Gods Word! I wasnt there and neither were you. So I take my truth from the one that was there and the one that says He created satan, actually Lucifer until he got thrown to earth, then his name changed to satan. Gods Word tells us how beautiful and powerful and adorned Lucifer was.

As for me, I haven't turned from God, I simply do not agree with some points in Christianity especially relating to parts taken from Judaism, to me to be a part of something requires knowing its history, if you don't you are just participating in something that you have no idea what it means. I have met people who have turned away from God for number of reasons, some because bad things have happened to them, some because they just stopped believing and I've seen people come to God for various reasons as well. This is so true, HEY! We found common ground! LOL! My wife and I and our boys went to Israel this last April. It was the most amazing adventure in my life! For us, the bible now comes alive when I read it because all the places we visited were so awesome! So now when I read about Jesus at the sea of Galilee I dont have to imagine what it looked liked, I was on it! Very cool! We love the Jewish people and we love their beautiful country! Dont agree with their theology but I think its important to love people regardless of their belief system. We want to go back next year and are seriously considering it but its expensive.

If you think evolution is being shoved down people's throats that's fine you don't need to believe it. Did I have a choice in school? Did you? Did the school say, you have a choice young man, do you want classes teaching creation or evolution? NO! Thats why I said that because it is. Same in our universities! You dont have a choice. Now reverse it, what if they only taught creationism? You'd have riots! Especially from the professors that teach biology, physics, chemistry, psychology and sociology etc., etc.. I have studied biology, and I'm still on the fence with evolution simply because in science things can be proven false. But given the evidence that we have, it is a well supported theory. See, I dont know what evidence you speak of. There isnt any more EVIDENCE for evolution as there is for creation. Actually more for creation due to the fact that God explains in His word that He made trees and plants with fruit bearing seed, all the creatures in the sea, the cattle and all the creaping things on the earth not to mention man and woman. All of which has the ability to procreate! Look around you, dont you see these things as EVIDENCE? I mean, what more could you ask for? And, has anyone or anything in history as we know it claimed to have done that? NO! Then look at the other side, that all these things devoloped out of some primordial goop? Really? Thats why I say, it takes a whole lot more faith to believe in evolution than it does in a creator. But again, thats just me. Obviously, creation doesnt make sense to everyone. But I guess if you dont believe in the living God of the bible, you have to believe in the alternatives, right? And satan has been busy for thousands of years keeping people away from the God of the bible, can you guess why?

What I have found is that people tend to stick with what they knew and fear things that are new. Sure, look what happend when Jesus came to earth! He challenged the old ways of the Jews and threatend the Pharisees among others! Claiming he was God incarnate was blasphemy! There are some religions like Isam that you are born into and have no choice. If you want to explore other beliefs or leave this religion, your family will disown you and you may even be under threat of your life! Is that crazy or what? The story of genesis has been circulating for over 2000 years. Modern science and researching is relatively new. So I'm not surprised that people would challenge science in regards to its discoveries regarding what was the accepted norm.

The question is, what IS the accepted norm? What foundation does "The Norm" sit on? Anyway, those are just my thoughts.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

The question is, what IS the accepted norm? What foundation does "The Norm" sit on? Anyway, those are just my thoughts.

1. I said they might be wrong key word is might. I don't like using aboslutes, but even if the answer is wrong, doesn't mean I dont' want to hear it. It may help me shape a better argument for my position. I like knowledge, because I like knowing, so to me the idea of right and wrong does not mean a voice should be heard. Being heard does not mean it will be accepted.

2. My point is that you are using a particular interpretation of Gods word. Even when you say Lucifer, lets look at Isaiah in Context, because it is from the KJV we first draw the name Lucifer meaning Morning Star:

"Sheol from beneath is excited over you to meet you when you come; It arouses for you the spirits of the dead, all the leaders of the earth; It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones. 10"They will all respond and say to you, 'Even you have been made weak as we, You have become like us. 11Your pomp and the music of your harps Have been brought down to Sheol; Maggots are spread out as your bed beneath you And worms are your covering.'…2"How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!…

In context this is referring to a human, but yes if you take what is spoken of in the second book of Enoch it does follow the idea of Satan being cast out of heaven

The Second Book of Enoch, also called the Slavonic Book of Enoch, contains references to a Watcher (Grigori) called Satanael.[17] It is a pseudepigraphic text of an uncertain date and unknown authorship. The text describes Satanael as being the prince of the Grigori who was cast out of heaven[18] and an evil spirit who knew the difference between what was "righteous" and "sinful".[19] A similar story is found in the book of 1 Enoch; however, in that book, the leader of the Grigori is called Semjâzâ.

Of course we are not in agreement because we view the bible differently. I do not find it to be infallible, however I do find it as a good source of varying human perspectives of God. So to me there isn't a conflict between what the Bible says and what history shows, because history shows the struggle and the bible has that struggle recorded. I also see the bible as a mix of various themes, some historical, some mythical (that doesn't mean not true but used to convey a message), and some poetic (used to express how humans view their relationship with God). But simply not being in agreement does not mean that I do not want to listen to your views.

3. Evolution wasn't shoved down my throat, my school taught biology, but barely mentioned the E word. I had to look it up myself, because I wanted to know what all the hooah was about, and the material presented for evidence of evolution is so much that it takes a long time to read. But even then I accept the premise that it can be falsified, simply because in science that's how things works. You say there isn't an evidence for evolution, but have you actually read the Origin of Species? Have you been following up with genetic research?

I guess the difference is that, I have a love of knowledge (does not mean I take all that I read to be true), and I contionously look at what are arguments for both sides. Where did X come from and why. So for me I don't look at these things as "Satan trying to deceive" I see it as man attempting to understand the world God has created.

But to each their own, our children will know much more than we will ever know.

 

[1robin]

Whether you remember it or not, the conversation happened.

I never denied any conversation occurred. I denied it had any real impact on my claim.

You kept harping on minute differences between individuals and I kept pointing out to you that we're talking at the RACE level.

Are you suggesting that what would have produced (if it existed in isolation from God) the Congo bush people and the greatest nation in human history is minute? If I find a race that is still chopping each others heads of and I am from a race that has cured cancer it would be completely reasonable to think my race should rule over the other if only for their good and that evolution had a huge impact on the differences between the two races. That is unless God is accounted for. There are no levels in nature. There is one long string of in equal things. If we as is our habit draw categories that do not exist in reality around things that do actually exist then the inequality would be less within that range than over all but even the slightest differences (as every professional evolutionist has claimed) can and does produce massive differences.

You also tried to point out the subtitle of Darwin's book as some kind of justification for your claim that evolution is racist, which several people explained to you has little to nothing to do with human evolution. Remember yet?

What about favored races is not indicative of inequality among even humans? I remember a bunch of things that had no more ability to counter the fact that evolution never produces equal things than anything you have said here. Since you so unable to see this I will give another example. Even if humans had basically identical evolution as far as biological equipment goes, even behavior and environment can produce massive differences in capacity and has. You believe that evolution exists and God does not. So in effect anything in reality is a commentary on that view. Do you for a minute deny that for most of history certain races, cultures, even tribes have been far more advanced than others. That alone is all the evidence necessary to justify me claim.

You never did bother explaining to me what the differences are that make one race (only a social construct) radically different from another that would justify your statement that evolution is racist. That's what it would take to back up your statement.

I think I have given two and history records an almost infinite example of what I claimed. It is an absolute fact races, tribes, and cultures have been massively unequal in capacity over the entire course of human history. You are only left witch 2 very bad ways out of this.

1. You can say that what produced that inequality has not one component of it that evolution explains. That would be ridiculous but not something I put past anyone debating evolution. That theory seems to stretch and contract as needs arise. Let me state that I am virtually certain that evolution would be a factor in those inequalities even if you do not agree.
2. That you do not think the differences unequal enough to justify my claims. Since the inequalities differ in reality by massive gulfs this one is unsustainable at all.

The inequality is simply a matter of fact. Evolution's roll in it is beyond serious dispute. All that is left is degree.

 

[1robin]

Other religions? What other religions have I mentioned unless you are talking about Judaism in which case if you take away that aspect then you don't use much to go on for the NT

It may not have been you. Someone mention the concept of the "antagonistic spirit" as being common to pagan and other faiths. If it was not you I am at a loss how I got mixed up but it is irrelevant.

If I am not mistaken you agreed Genesis is Hebrew theological text. So Satan is established as being accursed long before Christianity ever appeared. Not even claiming the serpent is not Satan would change this as it is indicated that it is Satan that is either in, controlling, or is actually the serpent in the garden. I will admit I would prefer more info on him in the OT but the theme of his being an enemy to God and man is not deniable. It takes no strain to even find Satan in Genesis 3:15.

 

[1robin]

What makes you equal WITH God? The Bible suggests that we're nothing more than "pots" that the "potmaker" is free use (or smash) as he pleases. Where's the worth of a human being in THAT equation?

What makes that question relevant seeing I never thought, indicated nor gave the slightest hint I thought this? I am going to be generous and believe you either misunderstood what I meant by equality or I typed it wrong. I meant humanity is made equal in and by God. It introduces a transcendent standard that would supersede the inequality that evolution would produce and cancel it. I am equal in value with you and you with an emperor in God's eyes. I am not nor ever will be equal to him. That is not only unbiblical it is impossible. Now that I have cleared that up I hope to not see it again as it could be considered an insult to a Christian.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

It may not have been you. Someone mention the concept of the "antagonistic spirit" as being common to pagan and other faiths. If it was not you I am at a loss how I got mixed up but it is irrelevant.

If I am not mistaken you agreed Genesis is Hebrew theological text. So Satan is established as being accursed long before Christianity ever appeared. Not even claiming the serpent is not Satan would change this as it is indicated that it is Satan that is either in, controlling, or is actually the serpent in the garden. I will admit I would prefer more info on him in the OT but the theme of his being an enemy to God and man is not deniable. It takes no strain to even find Satan in Genesis 3:15.

Satan is not present in the Garden, as it clearly indicates that the Serpent did so of it's own accord.

Hebrew scripture does not attribute the serpent with Satan, I think that may have actually come from Justin Martyr.

We know that some snakes have vestiages in their bones of what were once feet, it also stands that in the wilderness they would be among the most dangerous animals due to their venom and mankind has a long history of dislike for snakes and find them frightening. The story seems to be reflecting human behavior towards snakes more so than alluding the snake was Satan.

 

[1robin]

What I heard from Jews that he was God's agent in testing humans.
Where in the Hebrew Bible is he God's enemy?

Is that why the serpent Whether actually Satan or under his direct influence was cursed and his actual doom predicted by Genesis 3:15?

Interesting that you use "progressive" revelation. Has revelation stopped or is it still progressing? The Baha'i Faith says that it is still progressing and God's latest revelation to humans has made clear the misunderstood concepts of the past--like hell, the devil, the trinity and so on. Oh, and speaking of the trinity, didn't you say something about God being defined the same way. I think you meant by Christians and Jews wasn't it? So then the Hebrews defined God as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

Should not have been that interesting as it is a common place doctrine and consistent with common sense. Yes I believe revelation still occurs, Christ said it would. I am well aware of what the Baha'i say and I reject their claims it is from God, and thereby reject anything it claims. I did not say old revelations were corrected or changed outside of covenant. I said the holes and gaps are filled in. New things may be given but they never contradict old things. New revelation clarifies and adds to old revelation but it al stands as one. That being said we would have to debate whether any specific claim may be new revelation. Christ and the apostles gave the criteria new revelation and prophets must meet. Bahaullah and Baha'i fails every test.

 

[1robin]

So a snake is not a serpent? Sorry, I was ignorant of that fact. Thanks for straightening me out. But then a serpent is satan, an evil fallen angel? And, that's how even the Jews see it?

Not all serpents are snakes. The Hebrew says serpent not snake. It might have been but there is no way to know. It is irrelevant whether snakes are serpents because we need to discuss what all serpents are.

You really don't get the joke do you. You worry about a serpent being called a snake when calling the Christian devil the same as the Hebrew "satan" is not a problem?

Not only do I not know what joke your talking about, I have no idea what your Satan, devil comments mean. They are English words and mean little in a Biblical discussion. I claim neither are in the Bible yet both refer to the same entity.

 

[1robin]

Bull we can't prove it. Babies do not have the capability at birth to be sinners. Thus they are not "born sinners."

*

I have a problem believing you could not know that I meant to say couldn't instead of could as the use of other words all indicated very strongly. In fact I do not believe it. There is no way to demonstrate whether we are born sinners or not. However it makes no difference what so ever because we learn it before we learn almost everything else and therefore the problem is the exact same.