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Why doesn’t God communicate directly to everyone?

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
As you just mentioned, just because they "believed" they had some communication from God, doesn't mean they did...
If you mean the Prophets, there are True Prophets and false Prophets. It is our responsibility to determine which ones are True, if we want to know. Matthew 7:16-20
If God wanted us to have a Law book, it would be installed into our operating system; not declared in only one language, millions of years after creation.
I have no idea what you mean by "operating system."
I believe that Laws are revealed by the Prophets, whom I normally refer to as Messengers or Manifestations of God, in every new age of history. NEW Laws need to be revealed in every NEW age because society and the world we live in changes over time; thus the Old Laws of the Old Testament no longer apply to this New Age.
The prophets are telling us we're already going the wrong way, and here are the consequences they've foreseen.
They might have been telling us that before, but that does not mean that we are STILL going the wrong way... Much has happened since the Old Testament was written.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
God dosent exist except in people's minds. It's a mental puppet.

It's no surprise then why people say God only communicates from within the person's psyche.
I understand that is what you and many atheists believe, but that does not make it so.
There is no proof that God exists, but that does not mean God does not exist.
There is plenty of evidence that "indicates" that God exists, for those who actually want to know. :)
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
I have no idea what you mean by "operating system."
Meaning they're hard coded into our body, like we're automatically designed to seek boobies for food, to seek a partner; thus God could has programmed us to know when we steal, lie, it is wrong, as our heart starts racing...

We didn't need Law books to restate what we should've already known.

In my opinion
. :innocent:
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
I understand that is what you and many atheists believe, but that does not make it so.
There is no proof that God exists, but that does not mean God does not exist.
There is plenty of evidence that "indicates" that God exists, for those who actually want to know. :)


That last word should be believe, not know
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I understand that is what you and many atheists believe, but that does not make it so.
There is no proof that God exists, but that does not mean God does not exist.
There is plenty of evidence that "indicates" that God exists, for those who actually want to know. :)
What's such an indicator?

The argument for complexity that leads people into thinking something is being designed?

A person's personal feelings?

I know of no indicator that exists that cannot be discounted in some shape, way, or fashion.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Because every human being has inherent value. And Knowledge is freedom, not ignorance. So therefore, every human being deserves credible communication with god as much as any other. If god has anything important to say and cares about us.
I asked why everyone deserves direct communication from God. Why is the communication to a Messenger who can convey all the necessary information to everyone not good enough? This is the hundred-dollar question nobody seems to be able to answer.

Why does God owe it to everyone to give them their own personal message?
If the message revealed to the Messenger is not credible to them, why is that God’s fault?
Bahai is one of the better versions of Abrahamic religion. Much better than it's Islamic root. But it still suffers from this fundamental logical ethical problem. A benevolent almighty God is not limited to communication with prophets.
That's the sort of thing humans would invent because it makes them feel superior.
An omnipotent God could communicate to everyone. I have probably said this about 100 times. The first question is why God is obligated to communicate to everyone? The second question is why this is necessary?

The third question is this: Could all humans understand God? No, they could not, and that is one reason God does not communicate to anyone except His Messengers who are human but more than human. They have a universal divine mind and heavenly intellectual power which is beyond human nature. It embraces things and is cognizant of things, knows them, understands them, is aware of mysteries, realities and divine significations.

Without understanding that the Messengers are another order of creation above an ordinary man, and that they have a universal divine mind that is different than ours, there is no way anyone can understand why God only speaks through them.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
There are only three the logical possibilities given the empirical evidence:

1. God exists and communicates using Messengers (theist), or
2. God exists and does not communicate at all (deist), or
3. God does not exist (atheist)

You pick. Any more of those is as logical as the other one. :)
These three are not equally logical.

The last two are pretty straightforward. The first requires believing implausible, internally inconsistent, things.


I asked why everyone deserves direct communication from God.
Because everyone has value.

Why is the communication to a Messenger who can convey all the necessary information to everyone not good enough?
Because humans claiming to speak for God lack credibility.
This is the hundred-dollar question nobody seems to be able to answer.
It's been answered several times. You just don't like the answers because they contradict your belief that you are special enough to know things most people don't.
Tom
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
You seem to be contradicting yourself. Are you saying that God should communicate directly to certain people but not to everyone?

No.

What is the lame-*** excuse you agree with? Does God need an excuse for how He communicates to humanity? If so, why?

I am saying it is a lame*** excuse to say "that people have to be willing to sincerely search for God using their own innate powers of reasoning in order to be worthy of knowing God exists, rather than just sitting back and doing nothing, waiting for God to communicate to them".

It is just a convenient excuse.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
I asked why everyone deserves direct communication from God. Why is the communication to a Messenger who can convey all the necessary information to everyone not good enough? This is the hundred-dollar question nobody seems to be able to answer.

Why does God owe it to everyone to give them their own personal message?
If the message revealed to the Messenger is not credible to them, why is that God’s fault?

An omnipotent God could communicate to everyone. I have probably said this about 100 times. The first question is why God is obligated to communicate to everyone? The second question is why this is necessary?

The third question is this: Could all humans understand God? No, they could not, and that is one reason God does not communicate to anyone except His Messengers who are human but more than human. They have a universal divine mind and heavenly intellectual power which is beyond human nature. It embraces things and is cognizant of things, knows them, understands them, is aware of mysteries, realities and divine significations.

Without understanding that the Messengers are another order of creation above an ordinary man, and that they have a universal divine mind that is different than ours, there is no way anyone can understand why God only speaks through them.

Above an ordinary man ?
This sounds just like what @columbus was saying.
It sounds like something that humans would invent to make them feel superior.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Or it could be that God doesn't communicate with anyone directly at all. Those who claim to be "His Messengers" could very well be lying.
It could be that, but to assume that without even checking out what a Messenger wrote and did on His Mission is somewhat presumptuous, given there is a lot at stake if a certain Messenger actually spoke for an Almighty God.
This is common to all religions. They always claim that they have the "true message" and the "true word of God," while also claiming that other religions are false and that punishment awaits them for turning away from the "true word."
Sure all religious people claim that, all people have an ego and a stake in being right, but that does not mean they are right. Moreover, the fact that they all say they are the only true religion does not mean that they are the only true religion.

Logically speaking, if religions contradict each other, they cannot all be true. However, parts of what each one of them teaches can indeed be true. That is the Baha’i belief. All of what was originally revealed by God to a Messenger and ascribed to Him in scriptures is true, but over the centuries the older scriptures have been changed so much by various translations and interpretations, so they no longer represent the pristine Word of God. As such, there is really no way to determine how much of what is in the scriptures is the truth from God.
I feel that as long as one remains true to oneself and stays true to one's own personal beliefs, regardless of whether they come from a messenger or a holy book, then that should be sufficient. It doesn't really matter what one believes, as long as one is sincere. If someone chooses to believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster or the Great Pumpkin, that should be considered just as valid as any belief, as long as they remain true to that belief.
Yes and no. I think it is important to have the knowledge of God, but that is because I believe God exists. If one is sincere and their deeds and morals are good, regardless of whether they believe in God and regardless of whether their beliefs come from a messenger or a holy book, they are far better off than one who claims his belief in words but whose actions are not good. Those are the hypocrites.
It's the hypocrites and liars you have to watch out for. Those who say one thing and do something different. Those who don't fulfill their oaths or fail to live up to their own stated principles, regardless of what they might be.
We all have different capacities so we can only do what we are capable of but we should not profess one thing and do another. Sincerity and effort are what is most important.
As an agnostic, I say "I don't know if there's a God," and that's a true and honest statement to make from my point of view. I don't know if some messenger or holy book is really true - and I can't really see how anyone else can claim to know either.
That is a very sincere statement, you don’t know. Others do know but how we know is unique to each individual. We cannot prove that what we believe is true, all we can do is explain how we know, to those who are interested in knowing that.
Even if it's true that God only speaks to His Messengers, then if *I* don't get to speak directly to any of the "messengers," then how can I trust the messengers of the messengers? How can I trust any holy book which is rewritten and revised, not by the actual "messengers," but by their followers after their death?
Those are very good questions. As I always say, I am just a messenger for the Messenger so all I do is point people to the mailbox where He delivered the mail. Nobody should believe anything I say about the Messenger. People have to go to the mailbox and get the mail He delivered, open it up and read it for themselves.

Much unlike the Holy Bible which was written by men, not by Jesus, Bahaullah wrote His own scriptures with His Own Pen or he dictated to His secretary who transcribed them as He spoke, after which time Bahaullah read over what was written to ensure its accuracy and only then did He stamp the Tablets with His Official Seal. His handwriting has been authenticated by modern technology so we know it is authentic. For the first time in the history of religion, we now have the actual writings of the Messenger of God. This is unprecedented.

The Original Writings of Baha’u’llah are kept in a vault for safekeeping in Haifa Israel. Nobody has access to them except the Universal House of Justice, who authorizes and coordinates their translation into English and other languages.
Is God truly going to fault me for being leery and skeptical of some snake-oil salesman and not taking a leap of faith? As long as I stay true to my own beliefs and remain honest with myself, then how can God fault me, even if you think it's the "wrong" belief?
What I think does not matter one iota. The only thing that matters is what is true, but everyone has to determine that for themselves, if they care to. In the Baha’i Faith, that is called the independent investigation of truth: How to Independently Investigate the Truth

God is not going to fault you for being skeptical; in fact God wants you to be skeptical because otherwise you could easily get duped. It is better to have no belief than to have a false belief, because once someone has a false belief it is difficult to extricate themselves from that, but as an agnostic you can always come to discover the truth if you are a sincere seeker of truth.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Yes, everyone deserves it. However, imagine a radio that only picks up AM signals. An FM message ain't gonna hit and it's not the radio's fault. Given that there is some neural anatomy that seems necessary to "feel the divine presence" or whatever, even if you think it's just a sensation and not "real", the thing is that it still seems to be necessary to be born with the proper equipment to feel that way.
I do not believe that everyone deserves direct communication from God, a personal message. There is no reason why God owes anyone any such thing. The All-Knowing and All-Wise God communicates in the best way possible such that all of humanity is able to get the communication. The fact that a small number of people do not "like" the way that God communicates does not mean God is obligated to communicate differently.

God is under no obligation to humans. God forms a Covenant with humans whereby God guarantees certain blessings but that Covenant also requires humans to do their part... A Covenant is an agreement between two parties. God agrees to send His Messengers throughout all of eternity, but humans have to do their part and recognize and follow the teachings and laws of those Messengers.
God only communicates to His Chosen Messengers because only they have the capacity to understand what God communicates. They have a universal divine mind and heavenly intellectual power which is beyond human nature. Their mind embraces things and is cognizant of things, knows them, understands them, is aware of mysteries, realities and divine significations.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
That's silly. IF there is some all knowing creator god then this god KNOWS that it created me with a brain that requires verifiable evidence for belief. IF this god WANTS me to believe in it then god should never have created me with a skeptical rational thinking mind. That's like claiming that god WANTS me to be able to breath under water as if I had gills, but then he went and created me with lungs instead. Any god with half a brain would know that I am never going to be able to breath under water as if I had gills.
God does not and never has provided verifiable evidence (proof) of His existence.....
God does not care if you need verifiable evidence (proof) of His existence.....
God does not need your belief so God is not going to barter with you...
God does not barter with humans because God is All-Powerful and All-Knowing.
God reveals Himself through His Messengers, and people can choose to believe in them or not.....
God is not going to change His Method of communication, so if people don’t like it they will just have to remain nonbelievers.
And how exactly is providing verifiable evidence for something 'overriding human free will'? If I claim that I can run a mile in less than 4 minutes and then provide you with verifiable evidence that I can, have I somehow 'overridden your free will'? If you think so, then you really don't have a clue what free will is.
Providing verifiable evidence that God exists is the same as providing proof that God exists......
If God proves He exists that means you no longer have to choose because you would know God exists......
If you knew God existed for certain you would no longer be free to choose to believe or not believe.....
That is precisely why I believe in God even though I do not always want to. :oops::rolleyes:
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
The question is moot. God DOES communicate to all. From Romans 1: " . . . Since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."

However, the Bible explains that due to sin, God sparsely communicates with individuals. Anyone who seeks truth will find God for communications--is what the Bible further says.
So you’re relying on a supposed revelation to one person, shared with humanity, that God doesn’t just give one person a revelation to share with humanity? o_O
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Meaning they're hard coded into our body, like we're automatically designed to seek boobies for food, to seek a partner; thus God could has programmed us to know when we steal, lie, it is wrong, as our heart starts racing...

We didn't need Law books to restate what we should've already known.
But God did not program us that way. God programmed us with a higher spiritual nature and a lower material nature, and God gave us the free will to choose between the our two natures. The teachings of religion are like a guidebook from God; by following those teachings we are choosing to live according to our higher spiritual nature. The Laws help us to live according to God's Will.

“The beginning of all things is the knowledge of God, and the end of all things is strict observance of whatsoever hath been sent down from the empyrean of the Divine Will that pervadeth all that is in the heavens and all that is on the earth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 5
 

GoodbyeDave

Well-Known Member
I've done some study on schizophrenia over the last 17 years, At anyone time up to 2.5 % of the population are effected.
According to an article in the Lancet, cited in Wikipedia, the actual figure is less than 1% over a whole lifetime!

Of course auditory hallucinations are not necessarily schizophrenic. It is estimated that up to 28% of the population have such hallucinations
Again, where's your evidence? Investigations into people's religious experiences in both Britain and the USA show that they are quite different from halucinations. There's also the point that surveys have also shown that mental illness is less common among those practicing a religion. (For citations of original research, see C. F. Davis, The evidental value of religious experience, OUP, 1989)

Are atheists incapable of getting their facts straight? Well, I suppose that's why they're atheists.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
God does not and never has provided verifiable evidence (proof) of His existence.....
God does not care if you need verifiable evidence (proof) of His existence.....
God does not need your belief so God is not going to barter with you...
God does not barter with humans because God is All-Powerful and All-Knowing.
God reveals Himself through His Messengers, and people can choose to believe in them or not.....
God is not going to change His Method of communication, so if people don’t like it they will just have to remain nonbelievers.

Providing verifiable evidence that God exists is the same as providing proof that God exists......
If God proves He exists that means you no longer have to choose because you would know God exists......
If you knew God existed for certain you would no longer be free to choose to believe or not believe.....
That is precisely why I believe in God even though I do not always want to. :oops::rolleyes:

Never claimed that God cared about any of that. All I've said is that an all knowing God already knows that it created me with a need for verifiable evidence and if it has no intention of providing me with verifiable evidence, then it obviously does not want me to believe. If this God wanted me to believe it either would not have created me with a need for verification or it would provide such verification. It's really not that complicated a concept.

And your logic about free will is faulty. The fact that you have verifiable evidence that the sun exists does not mean you don't have free will. The fact that you have verifiable evidence that water freezes at 32 degrees Fahrenheit does not mean you don't have free will. If God were to provide verifiable evidence for its existence, it would not mean that you no longer have free will. All it would mean is that you would no longer have to pretend that God exists without verifiable evidence.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
What's such an indicator?

The argument for complexity that leads people into thinking something is being designed?

A person's personal feelings?

I know of no indicator that exists that cannot be discounted in some shape, way, or fashion.
The evidence that "indicates" that God exists is the Messenger of God.
That evidence can certainly be discounted in many shapes, ways, and fashions.
That is why everyone is not a believer. :)
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Trailblazer said: There are only three the logical possibilities given the empirical evidence:
1. God exists and communicates using Messengers (theist), or
2. God exists and does not communicate at all (deist), or
3. God does not exist (atheist)
You pick. Any more of those is as logical as the other one.
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These three are not equally logical.
Columbus said: The last two are pretty straightforward. The first requires believing implausible, internally inconsistent, things.
They are all equally possible and equally logical...
The last two are pretty straightforward so they are easier....
The first one is more difficult but it does not require believing in implausible, internally inconsistent, things.
Trailblazer said: I asked why everyone deserves direct communication from God.
Columbus said: Because everyone has value.
That does not answer my question. Why do people need direct communication from God in order to have value? Put another way, how does God devalue people by sending a Messenger that can be known by everyone?
Trailblazer said: Why is the communication to a Messenger who can convey all the necessary information to everyone not good enough?
Columbus said: Because humans claiming to speak for God lack credibility.
You mean because they are not believable to everyone?
Trailblazer said: This is the hundred-dollar question nobody seems to be able to answer.
Columbus said: It's been answered several times. You just don't like the answers because they contradict your belief that you are special enough to know things most people don't.
I am not special. I am only different than nonbelievers in that I was willing to consider the possibility that a Messenger might actually speak for God. If others are unwilling to consider that possibility then they will never know.

I asked why everyone deserves direct communication from God. Why is the communication to a Messenger who can convey all the necessary information to everyone not good enough? This is the hundred-dollar question nobody seems to be able to answer.

That question has never been answered. What makes everyone worthy of direct communication from an Almighty God? We all have value, but do I deserve a medical degree just because I have value, when I was unwilling to put forth the same effort as the doctors who acquired one? Do I deserve a medical degree just because I want one?

Most people believe in God because of one of the Messengers of God. That means that only a numbered few people on earth do not find the Messengers credible. Everyone does not need direct communication from God just because that would be more credible to a few nonbelievers.

Besides that fact, it is complete insanity to expect God to communicate the same message to everyone on earth when God can communicate that to one Messenger who can make that message available to everyone.
 
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