Why doesn't God stop evil, pain and suffering?

[Beaudreaux]

Dodging does not impress me.

Then why are you doing it. Simple set of questions. Will people be mind conrolled in heaven? Will they still have free will? Will they sin?

 

[Storm]

God, can you rise above the playground tactics for 5 whole minutes, or do you just not have anything else?

 

[Freelancer7]

What is the difference from Babylonian Mind Control and what is Mind Control of telling Truth, is that what ou mean storm??

 

[Beaudreaux]

God, can you rise above the playground tactics for 5 whole minutes, or do you just not have anything else?

Oh I 've got it all, baby!

Alright, I'll answer your question first, but I then expect you to answer mine. Would you say that is fair?

So, how can God make a perfect world where there is no sin without mind control? My answer is that there is no such God and the fact that we come down to these ridiculous questions when we examine Christian doctrine demonstrates that. There is no perfect world either here on in the so called hereafter. We have what we have and we humans, with no help from an imaginary man in the sky, make the best of it.




Now, is that a fair answer? Can you now give me a few please in the interest of productive dialogue?

• Do you bellieve in heaven?
• If you do, will God be using mind control on its inhabitants?
• Will the inhabitants of heaven have free will?
• Will the inhabitants of heaven sin?

I await your replies.

 

[Storm]

What is the difference from Babylonian Mind Control and what is Mind Control of telling Truth, is that what ou mean storm??

I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Freelancer7]

I have no idea what you're talking about.

It's all in the Heart and a Clear Mind.

 

[Beaudreaux]

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Phew! I thought it might just be me.

 

[Storm]

So, how can God make a perfect world where there is no sin without mind control? My answer is that there is no such God and the fact that we come down to these ridiculous questions when we examine Christian doctrine demonstrates that. There is no perfect world either here on in the so called hereafter. We have what we have and we humans, with no help from an imaginary man in the sky, make the best of it.

Now, is that a fair answer?

Actually, it strikes me as a bit of a cop out, for a couple of reasons:
1) You didn't actually answer the question.
2) Demanding definitive impossibilities of God as a means of disproving Him is singularly unimpressive.

Can you now give me a few please in the interest of productive dialogue?

• Do you bellieve in heaven?

You already asked me, remember? No, I don't. I don't believe in this concept of God, either.

 

[Freelancer7]

Phew! I thought it might just be me.

:clapVery Funny

 

[Beaudreaux]

You already asked me, remember? No, I don't. I don't believe in this concept of God, either.

Oh yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Sorry about that. :foot:

 

[Beaudreaux]

Actually, it strikes me as a bit of a cop out, for a couple of reasons:
1) You didn't actually answer the question.

Alright. I guess I jumped ahead too far. To the question "So, how can God make a perfect world where there is no sin without mind control? " my answer is 'He can't".

2) Demanding definitive impossibilities of God as a means of disproving Him is singularly unimpressive.

If I do it multiple times is it plurally unimpressive?

Actually, I do not believe that I demand impossibilities of God. I simply refuse to turn a blind eye to the impossibilities that naturally arise out of Christian doctrine (Christianity being the religion with which I am most familiar). Theodicy is one example of this. The trinity another. Omniscience and free will another.

 

[Storm]

Oh yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Sorry about that. :foot:

No problem. We've been all over the map.

 

[Storm]

Alright. I guess I jumped ahead too far. To the question "So, how can God make a perfect world where there is no sin without mind control? " my answer is 'He can't".

Exactly. It's like saying there's no such God because He can't make a square circle.

If I do it multiple times is it plurally unimpressive?

:biglaugh:

Actually, I do not believe that I demand impossibilities of God. I simply refuse to turn a blind eye to the impossibilities that naturally arise out of Christian doctrine (Christianity being the religion with which I am most familiar). Theodicy is one example of this. The trinity another. Omniscience and free will another.

But theodicy isn't an impossibility; there are solutions. I came up with one, myself. The Trinity is just weird, though hardly unique, and omniscinece alone needn't cancel out free will. (That last bit is especially pedantic since the theology isn't omniscience alone. )

Like I said, I don't believe in any of this stuff, myself, but I don't think it can be disproven, either.

 

[Katzpur]

I DO care about your view of heaven. I am trying to point out that your indignace that I would suggest that God make a perfect world is hypocritical since, if you believe in heaven, you already believe God could make a perfect world.

Did I say Heaven would be perfect?

 

[Katzpur]

But is it like the place I describe? Specifically, in the heaven you believe in, is there any suffering, evil, death or sin?

Well, you've said what you believe Heaven is not. You haven't said what you think it is (which is going to be difficult, I realize, since you don't believe it even exists). In other words, all you've really said about Heaven is that there will be no suffering, evil, death or sin there. I believe you're right, up to that point.

I DO care about your view of heaven. I am trying to point out that your indignace that I would suggest that God make a perfect world is hypocritical since, if you believe in heaven, you already believe God could make a perfect world.

Okay, I believe that Earth is perfect in terms of the purpose for which it was created. It's a testing ground, a place where we can learn to make decisions that will ultimately enable us to move on to a place where we will be able to enjoy the rewards that come from passing the test. That probably sounds trite, but it's a whole lot more involved than I could possibly explain in three or four sentences. The rewards that come from passing the test, though, aren't going to involve sitting on a cloud and playing a harp. The rewards are going to come in the form of additional challenges, which in turn provide additional growth and progress.

 

[Sententia]

Okay, I believe that Earth is perfect in terms of the purpose for which it was created. It's a testing ground, a place where we can learn to make decisions that will ultimately enable us to move on to a place where we will be able to enjoy the rewards that come from passing the test. That probably sounds trite, but it's a whole lot more involved than I could possibly explain in three or four sentences. The rewards that come from passing the test, though, aren't going to involve sitting on a cloud and playing a harp. The rewards are going to come in the form of additional challenges, which in turn provide additional growth and progress.

??? I'm not attacking your beliefs. But this life is a test is ridiculous to me. Probably because I'm an atheist.

I mean I think its good that you consider it such and will strive to do your best. Thats dandy and all. But afterlife mumbo jumbo is like the fortunes on a bazooka comic. I have no reason to consider such fact.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Okay, I believe that Earth is perfect in terms of the purpose for which it was created. It's a testing ground, a place where we can learn to make decisions that will ultimately enable us to move on to a place where we will be able to enjoy the rewards that come from passing the test....The rewards are going to come in the form of additional challenges, which in turn provide additional growth and progress.

So, this world is a place to teach us how to make choices that lead us to eternal reward. The eternal reward is not the naive conception of bliss, but is rather a place where we are further challenged so that we may grow even more.


I can understand that, but I have two questions:

• Christian doctrine indicates that not everyone will pass this test on earth. Those who do not pass will get eternal punishment described in the Bible as being thrown into a lake of fire where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Do you believe everyone will pass? If not, do you still think this world is perfect for its purposes?
• In the eternal reward with more challenges for more growth, will people always respond correctly to those challenges, or will some fail the test there too?

 

[Katzpur]

Christian doctrine indicates that not everyone will pass this test on earth. Those who do not pass will get eternal punishment described in the Bible as being thrown into a lake of fire where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Do you believe everyone will pass? If not, do you still think this world is perfect for its purposes?

First of all, you need to keep in mind that there are over 30,000 Christian denominations in the world today and that no two of them teach exactly the same things. So when you begin a question by stating, "Christian doctrine indicated...", you're going to be describing the doctrines of some Christians but not all Christians. The only Christian doctrine I am comfortable in explaining to you is mine, so take it for what it's worth.

I don't believe in a literal "lake of fire," for starters, nor do I believe in an "eternal punishment" for those individuals who don't "pass the test." I believe that, for the truly wicked, there will be a period of punishment but not something that is never-ending. It won't be physical in nature, but emotional. Secondly, I don't think that not passing the test means that a person is "wicked." There are as many reasons that people don't pass the test as there are people. Some reasons are more justifiable than others. I don't believe that death is the end of the line. It's the end of mortality, but mortality is just a tiny moment with respect to eternity. I believe that there will be a period of time after death but prior to the resurrection and final judgment when the playing field will be leveled and when there will be further opportunities for those who were sincere in their efforts during mortality but still didn't get it quite right.

In the eternal reward with more challenges for more growth, will people always respond correctly to those challenges, or will some fail the test there too?

I should probably have indicated that not everyone will have an opportunity for further growth. Those who do, will not fail. There will be no limit to their potential.

 

[Renji]

OK, but what about the types of suffering described in the OP (disease, tsunami, hurricane)? I contend that free will had nothing to do with the suffering that many millions experience that God does not stop.

Are all tragedies created by God? I mean, there are a lot of things that we do that makes us suffer in the end. For example, you mentioned deceases. AIDS kills millions of people. Now, is it God's fault that someone commited unsafe sex, giving the persons involved this kind of virus? There are some deceases/illness/whatever it is that can be genetically passed. Is it God's fault that genetic informations including those things can be transfered through genes? Is it God's fault that your immune system cannot stand a certain kind of illness? For cases like SARS, is it God's fault that there is a bacteria/virus that can produce it? For tsunamis, is God the "mastermind" of crustal deformation, which can affect the sea and makes sea water above its equilibrium position? Weather Change is normal. It's just that sometimes, it turns bad.That's why there is Science which helps us to explain things and to avoid saying God caused this thing, God did that or even blaming any suffering to God ( doing this things can lead to ignorance).... Poor God.... Peace!

 

[Beaudreaux]

Are all tragedies created by God? I mean, there are a lot of things that we do that makes us suffer in the end. For example, you mentioned deceases. AIDS kills millions of people. Now, is it God's fault that someone commited unsafe sex, giving the persons involved this kind of virus? There are some deceases/illness/whatever it is that can be genetically passed. Is it God's fault that genetic informations including those things can be transfered through genes? Is it God's fault that your immune system cannot stand a certain kind of illness? For cases like SARS, is it God's fault that there is a bacteria/virus that can produce it? For tsunamis, is God the "mastermind" of crustal deformation, which can affect the sea and makes sea water above its equilibrium position? Weather Change is normal. It's just that sometimes, it turns bad.That's why there is Science which helps us to explain things and to avoid saying God caused this thing, God did that or even blaming any suffering to God ( doing this things can lead to ignorance).... Poor God.... Peace!

Lawrence, if you believe in God, do you believe he has the power to create a world where there are no Tsunamis, earthquakes or hurricanes? Do you believe he has the power to create a world without diseases that kill children?