Why doesn't God stop evil, pain and suffering?

[Katzpur]

Both of you don't know what a god is...

Great answer -- to a different question entirely.

 

[Cordoba]

Most monotheistic religions (certainly Christianity and Judaism) say three things about God:

• He's omniscient and omnipotent (there is nothing he does not know or cannot do)
• He's omnibenevolent (he is all-loving)
• Evil and pain and suffering are real in the world

But one look at the world around us shows us that these three things cannot all be true.

Yusuf Estes answers the main question of the thread

His answer is around 8 minutes in part of one of his talks:

God and Calamities

YouTube - WSWBIG S5 : God & Calamities

 

[DarkSun]

Ah, the fourth possible solution to theodicy: mystery. This basically says "Why does God allow evil, pain and suffering?.....I dunno."

The problem I have with this solution should be obvious to anyone who has read my posts. Mysteries are not valid arguments and "I don't know" is not an answser.

What is the definite cause of Global Warming...? When did the universe begin...? What existed before the Big Bang...? Does Dark Matter actually exist...?

What... you dunno?

 

[Freelancer7]

It means nothing. did you know that the number 23 is everywhere?

I know I am a little Thick and a little slow and a little stupid, i know there is 23 days in a month i know there is 22 seconds somewhere within sixty seconds i know 23 minutes comes after 22 minutes i know the basic nukmber 23 is one number before 24, but where is 23 in the Fibonacci sequence???? Please explain to this slow, thick ol' sod!!

 

[Beaudreaux]

What is the definite cause of Global Warming...? When did the universe begin...? What existed before the Big Bang...? Does Dark Matter actually exist...?

What... you dunno?

RIght. I dunno. Here's what I don't do with something I dunno. I don't make unsupportable claims of truth about it. Christianity takes the unresolvable contradition between its view of God and the state of the world and says "I dunno why things are the way they are BUT MY CONCEPTION OF GOD IS STILL TRUE."

It would be as if I, a tall white guy, walked up to you and said "I am actually an enormous plate of pasta." "But Beaudreaux" you would say. "You are clearly not a plate of pasta. You are observably a tall white guy. How can you make this claim which is clearly disproven by observable realisty." And then I say "You know DarkSun, it's a mystery that neither of us can understand." Would you consider that an adequate answer.

I'd also like to point out that the Christian claim of mystery with regard to theodicy is different than saying "I don't know what causes global warming." Christian mystery says that we are not capable of understanding why a Good God who could stop pain and suffering lets it happen. With regard to questions like the cause of global warming, we are clearly capable but need more/better data.

 

[Beaudreaux]

I know I am a little Thick and a little slow and a little stupid, i know there is 23 days in a month i know there is 22 seconds somewhere within sixty seconds i know 23 minutes comes after 22 minutes i know the basic nukmber 23 is one number before 24, but where is 23 in the Fibonacci sequence???? Please explain to this slow, thick ol' sod!!

He is refering to a bad Jim Carey movie where a nutty guy is obsessed with the number 23. I didn't see the movie and do not know if 23 really ended up having significance to the story, but reviewers clearly thought that the way he kept coming back to 23 was pretty contrived.

 

[Freelancer7]

sweet

 

[Storm]

Beaudreaux, honey, you still haven't addressed post #390. I'm curious as to why you find it inadequate, and for what purpose.

 

[Luminous]

this one guy was asked why god let the Virgina Culumbine horror happen and he said cuz "we asked God to leave our schools" how egotistical of him. We asked religion and blind faith to leave our schools. God is free to pop in anytime it so choses.
here's something: YouTube - "If God is good, why does He let bad things happen?"

 

[Freelancer7]

this one guy was asked why god let the Virgina Culumbine horror happen and he said cuz "we asked God to leave our schools" how egotistical of him.

To be quite honest, I reckon God is on the case

 

[Beaudreaux]

Beaudreaux, honey, you still haven't addressed post #390. I'm curious as to why you find it inadequate, and for what purpose.

I do not agree that pleasure and pain are different degrees of the same thing. I believe that they are seperate and one does not depend on the existence of the other. Consider the following:

• I have never lost a child, however when I read about someone who loses a child I feel sympathy for them.
• I have never been tortured, yet I have been brought to the heights of ecstasy.
• I am not, nor have I ever been, a glutton, yet I deeply appreciate the value of moderation.

In other words, suffering does not have to exist in my life in order for me to appreciate good things. That is why I find the argument that suffering has merit inadequate.

 

[Storm]

I do not agree that pleasure and pain are different degrees of the same thing. I believe that they are seperate and one does not depend on the existence of the other. Consider the following:

• I have never lost a child, however when I read about someone who loses a child I feel sympathy for them.
• I have never been tortured, yet I have been brought to the heights of ecstasy.
• I am not, nor have I ever been, a glutton, yet I deeply appreciate the value of moderation.

In other words, suffering does not have to exist in my life in order for me to appreciate good things. That is why I find the argument that suffering has merit inadequate.

That was never the argument.

 

[Beaudreaux]

That was never the argument.

was too.

Seriously though, I thought that was the crux of the Serenity argument. That a world without sin is impossible because you cannot have the happiness things without the suffering things. To quote portions:

Without gluttony, in a world where greed is eliminated, there is no way to choose charity....Without greed or sloth, there is no moderation, no temperance or prudence

Also, I just spent a few minutes searching for this, but could not find it so please correct me if I am wrong and then please forgive me and if you want to treat me to a cup of coffee as well then that would be nice too, but [inhaaaaaaaale] I am pretty sure you once said that without suffering there can be no compassion because suffering is what teaches us to be compassionate. I was trying to show that there are horrible things I have never experienced but for which I can still feel compassion.

Still off target?

 

[Storm]

was too.

Seriously though, I thought that was the crux of the Serenity argument. That a world without sin is impossible because you cannot have the happiness things without the suffering things. To quote portions:


Also, I just spent a few minutes searching for this, but could not find it so please correct me if I am wrong and then please forgive me and if you want to treat me to a cup of coffee as well then that would be nice too, but [inhaaaaaaaale] I am pretty sure you once said that without suffering there can be no compassion because suffering is what teaches us to be compassionate. I was trying to show that there are horrible things I have never experienced but for which I can still feel compassion.

Still off target?

No, not off target, but I have no idea how you went from that to "suffering and joy are different degrees of the same thing."

 

[Beaudreaux]

No, not off target, but I have no idea how you went from that to "suffering and joy are different degrees of the same thing."

Oh, I thought that you were saying that suffering and happiness are two ends of a continuum and for that reason one cannot exist without the other. I.e.: how can I understand what compassion is unless go further down the continuum to suffering and understand that they are differing degrees of the same experience.

So, I am guessing I am not putting that correctly with regards to your theodicy. :foot:

 

[Quagmire]

If God stopped evil, pain, and suffering we'd all find something else to complain about. It's just the way we are.

 

[Storm]

Oh, I thought that you were saying that suffering and happiness are two ends of a continuum and for that reason one cannot exist without the other. I.e.: how can I understand what compassion is unless go further down the continuum to suffering and understand that they are differing degrees of the same experience.

So, I am guessing I am not putting that correctly with regards to your theodicy. :foot:

It's a related argument, but not the one I'm making.

Using your example of compassion, you may not need to suffer yourself to be compassionate, but if no one did you couldn't be. Make sense?

 

[Beaudreaux]

Using your example of compassion, you may not need to suffer yourself to be compassionate, but if no one did you couldn't be. Make sense?

It certainly does, but if no one suffered, there would be no NEED for compassion. Wouldn't that be a better world?

 

[Katzpur]

It certainly does, but if no one suffered, there would be no NEED for compassion. Wouldn't that be a better world?

I don't believe it would. The world you've been describing sounds like it would be great for a bunch of robots, but not for human beings. What would life be like without love, compassion, charity, encouragment, etc.? If there was no need for any of these things, what kind of people would we all be?

 

[Quagmire]

It certainly does, but if no one suffered, there would be no NEED for compassion. Wouldn't that be a better world?

I don't know...

If you look at life in terms of meaning, I think we'd be at a loss without suffering of some kind; drama, conflict, the resulting growth and bonding that goes with it.

I mean, what if Tolkein had written Lord of the Rings minus the orcs, trolls, black riders, ect.

It would be like, "It was a nice day in the Shire. Yup, sure was a nice day, here in the Shire. The next day was also a nice day..."