Why doesn't God stop evil, pain and suffering?

[Caladan]

I don't know...

If you look at life in terms of meaning, I think we'd be at a loss without suffering of some kind; drama, conflict, the resulting growth and bonding that goes with it.

I mean, what if Tolkein had written Lord of the Rings minus the orcs, trolls, black riders, ect.

It would be like, "It was a nice day in the Shire. Yup, sure was a nice day, here in the Shire. The next day was also a nice day..."

This reminds me of a poem by Rumi:

Awakened by your love,
I flicker like a candle's light
tryin to hold on in the dark.
Yet, you spare me no blows
and keep asking,
"Why do you complain?"

Many speak about the 'problem of suffering', but I dont believe there is a problem. the world is what it is, and what we call suffering is simply our condition in what has already occurred for billions of years before our time. perhaps its the need people have developed for a perfect deity that creates this dilemma. maybe the Greeks were wiser in describing the gods as they did after all.

 

[Beaudreaux]

If God stopped evil, pain, and suffering we'd all find something else to complain about. It's just the way we are.

Man! Are YOU gonna be a drag in heaven.

 

[Beaudreaux]

I don't believe it would. The world you've been describing sounds like it would be great for a bunch of robots, but not for human beings. What would life be like without love, compassion, charity, encouragment, etc.? If there was no need for any of these things, what kind of people would we all be?

...happy?

So, you guys are saying that evil pain and suffering are actually good? That we live in the best of all possible worlds?

 

[BucephalusBB]

That we live in the best of all possible worlds?

I'd say a perfect God should be able to generate a perfect world.

 

[Caladan]

...happy?

So, you guys are saying that evil pain and suffering are actually good? That we live in the best of all possible worlds?

Evil and unnecessary pain are not 'good', evil springs from monstrous selfishness and psychological instability. but living life to its essence keeps one from losing their edge. personally I am highly suspicious of Utopian idea marketing, life as we know it has never proved to be compatible with Utopia, painless life without suffering? that's a Utopia and I have no idea how this kind of life would make a future humanity function, could they face the unknowns of the universe?

 

[Beaudreaux]

I'd say a perfect God should be able to generate a perfect world.

Agreed. Did he? Is this it?

 

[Storm]

...happy?

So, you guys are saying that evil pain and suffering are actually good? That we live in the best of all possible worlds?

If by "good" you mean "beneficial," yes.

I'm really curious, Beaudereaux, what's your purpose in this thread? Are you challenging people to convert you, or just trying to solve a puzzle?

 

[Storm]

I'd say a perfect God should be able to generate a perfect world.

Agreed. Did he? Is this it?

Can you define perfection, guys?

 

[Beaudreaux]

If by "good" you mean "beneficial," yes.

I'm really curious, Beaudereaux, what's your purpose in this thread? Are you challenging people to convert you, or just trying to solve a puzzle?

A great question, and one I had not really thought about until now.

Am I challenging people to convert me? I suppose I am, though there's more to it than that. I was a fundamentalist Christian for many years until I could no longer ignore the philosophical problems I found in my worldview. But it was nice while it lasted. Seriously, it's kind of comforting to know you are right and to anticipate an eternal reward and to think that your deceased loved ones aren't really dead. If I could believe that, why wouldn't I? I think solving the problem of evil would go a long way toward that, though I must be honest and say that I really don't think it's solvable. Who knows though?

But on the other hand, I am also trying to show people the problem with believing in an omnimax God in such an imperfect world. I know there are a lot of people out there who are where I was; feeling absolutely confident that they know the will of the almighty. It is a dangerous thing to live in a society where people believe they are being directed by God. Who knows what God will "tell" them to do?

 

[Sententia]

Why doesn't god stop this suffering?

Who?

God!

Who's that?

The creator.

I see.

No you can't.

Ahh... Hmmm. I think you need to clarify.

 

[Katzpur]

...happy?

Nope. We would have no concept of happiness because we would have nothing to compare it to.

So, you guys are saying that evil pain and suffering are actually good? That we live in the best of all possible worlds?

Pain and suffering are definitely not pleasant. I don't think any of us are saying that. It is possible, though, that they serve a purpose, and that without them, we would be essentially stagnant. I mean, just stop and think about it in the most basic sense. Let's say you're a golfer. You shoot one perfect round after another, day after day, month after month, year after year. You never see any improvement because you're already perfect. There is never a day when you have a sense of having learned something new or overcome something that was giving you fits the day before. Everything in life is like that to some extent. It is only by experiencing trials and challenges that we are able to truly appreciate success and fulfillment.

 

[Sententia]

Pain and suffering are definitely not pleasant.

By definition? Or to you? Pain and pleasure are neurochemical responses.

 

[Katzpur]

By definition?

Yes.

Or to you?

Yes.

Pain and pleasure are neurochemical responses.

They may be neurochemical responses, but that doesn't make them any less real. And given a choice, I'll take pleasure every time.

 

[Sententia]

Yes. Yes. They may be neurochemical responses, but that doesn't make them any less real. And given a choice, I'll take pleasure every time.

And if pain is pleasure?

 

[Katzpur]

And if pain is pleasure?

I don't know, Balance. I'm not into that kind of stuff.

 

[Sententia]

I don't know, Balance. I'm not into that kind of stuff.

Its not whether your in to something or not. Its a neurochemical response. That is all.

How to relate... hmmm

Ok... You pick up a glass. With your hand. Technically this is just a neurochemical formula to you. But in the real world beyond what you percieve something happened. Right... Beyond you and what you percieve. Even if you were unconscious and lifted the glass, the glass was still lifted.

Now by contrast lets look at the concept of pain and pleasure. A simple version is looking at a cat. This can invoke pleasure or pain. You can feel comforted and safeguarded or hyperventilate and go into shock at the mere sight of a cat. Pleasure and pain.

In the real world the cat is just sitting there. You are responding through pleasure or pain at the mere sight of a cat.

Its just a neurochemical response. Some people are terrified of the dark others relish and delight in it. Some hate silence and others love it.

 

[Katzpur]

Its not whether your in to something or not. Its a neurochemical response. That is all.

How to relate... hmmm

Ok... You pick up a glass. With your hand. Technically this is just a neurochemical formula to you. But in the real world beyond what you percieve something happened. Right... Beyond you and what you percieve. Even if you were unconscious and lifted the glass, the glass was still lifted.

Now by contrast lets look at the concept of pain and pleasure. A simple version is looking at a cat. This can invoke pleasure or pain. You can feel comforted and safeguarded or hyperventilate and go into shock at the mere sight of a cat. Pleasure and pain.

In the real world the cat is just sitting there. You are responding through pleasure or pain at the mere sight of a cat.

Its just a neurochemical response. Some people are terrified of the dark others relish and delight in it. Some hate silence and others love it.

I see what you're saying and I agree that we all have different responses to the same stimuli. All I'm saying is that I'm guessing that most people wouldn't find a stab wound to the heart to be pleasurable. Think of a time when you were really, really sick for several days in a row. Didn't it feel great to finally get well? I mean we can talk about neurochemical responses all you want, and even though I understand what it was you just explained, you didn't manage to make me want to be sick or in pain. I've experienced good health and freedom from pain and remembering the difference is enough for me to know which I prefer.

 

[Sententia]

I see what you're saying and I agree that we all have different responses to the same stimuli. All I'm saying is that I'm guessing that most people wouldn't find a stab wound to the heart to be pleasurable. Think of a time when you were really, really sick for several days in a row. Didn't it feel great to finally get well? I mean we can talk about neurochemical responses all you want, and even though I understand what it was you just explained, you didn't manage to make me want to be sick or in pain.

Nor was it my intention too.

But if you want to joust on stab wounds to the heart being pleasurable you honestly cant think of a situation where that would be more pleasurable then enduring whatever situation you were in? (In a way I find that touchingly innocent)

On another but similar level... There were people not to long ago who planned their suicide and delighted in the planning and execution there of.

There are suicide cults.

There are cutters.

There are people who eternally believe they are ill and delight in their illness.

You say nothing I said would make you want to be sick or in pain. Thats good. But not my point. For some, being sick and in pain is their pleasure. Its their neurochemical response.

 

[BucephalusBB]

Can you define perfection, guys?

Without flaws. But it depends on the purpose. If the purpose was to create a world in where humans won't have what they don't want to have, then this world is not perfect. If the purpose was to create life on a globe than his plan worked perfectly..
The purpose was probably neither if any..

 

[Freelancer7]

Many speak about the 'problem of suffering', but I dont believe there is a problem. the world is what it is, and what we call suffering is simply our condition in what has already occurred for billions of years before our time.

A Jewish child running for an air-raid shelter, a palastinian child having their leg blown off due to the incompetence of Leaders who reckon they love a creator in a pathetic tit fot tat exchange without seriuos dialogue?? Who reckon their own faiths are the righteous faith?! Poverty, death by hunger?! A world food shortage?! World in financial crisis,We then possibly find life on Mars?! I'm not quite on the same mental and spiritual wavelength to say there is not a problem when it comes to suffering?!