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Why doesn't God stop evil, pain and suffering?

Sententia

Well-Known Member
It gives you a whole new level of appreciation for the good times, I can tell you that much.

Honestly... I have had chemotherapy, radiation treatment and many surgeries. I spent weekend after weekend dry heaving and wretching. I got stabbed in the spine for bone marrow samples on a weekly basis and my blood was taken and tested so often it seemed like a regular part of waking up to me at 6am. I have been stabbed with a knife in the gut. I grew up in neighborhoods where the occasional sound of gunfire meant the rest of the night would be peaceful and I could sleep. I have moved 41 times. I have had blankets measured in inches over me when I went to sleep because we couldnt afford heat. I have stood in lines in the bitter cold for hours to get a can of peanut butter, a box of cheese and a loaf of bread. I watched my mom work 100 hours a weeks and 3 jobs to support her 3 kids as a single mom because she didnt want to be on welfare. I have been beaten to a pulp as a kid for talking back. I have felt the sting of a whip, the smack of a spatula and thud of frying pan. I have been pushed down flights of stairs and been bitten and bleeding by both humans and dogs.

Suffering does not enrich your life. It cripples you. You relive experiences you never wish you had to go through. You were in pain and to this day I have the markers. Premature grey hair, scars and memories. My nightmares are not frequent but are unfathombly torturous. I wake up strangling myself in my bed sheets. I remember the blue masks. The sounds and the screaming. Most people repress painful crap. I may embrace it but I would never advocate to go through what I have. And the sad part is. When I reflect on my experiences and what I went through. I had it good. I had a near optimal life. I was a white male in america. Go figure.

It's doubtful to me that happiness could exist without it.

I used to think that too but Happiness and sadness are different in the brain. Lacking one does not mean lacking the other. ;)
 

idea

Question Everything
We have more power over ourself than anyone would like to admit. Those in the medical field know that recovery is dependant on attitude. Many die when they should live, and live when they should die. Read accounts of POW's and concentration camp survivors. They lived through mind over matter. Those who died are those who had no hope and just gave up.


Please forgive the long post, but I will not try to abbreviate Jacques’ words.

“Toward the end of the month all f a sudden it became too much for me and I grew sick”
…Very soon dysentery was added to pleurisy, then an infection in both ears which made me completely deaf for two weeks, then erysipelas, turning my face into a swollen pulp, with complications which threatened to bring on blood poisoning. More than fifty fellow prisoners told me all this later. I don’t remember any of it myself. I had taken advantage of the first days of sickness to leave Buchenwald.
Two young boys I was very fond of, a Frenchman with one leg, and a Russian with one arm, told me that one morning in April they carried me to the hospital on a stretcher. The hospital was not a place where they took care of people, but simply a place to lay them down until they died or got well. My friends, Pavel and Louis, didn’t understand what happened. Later they kept telling me that I was a “case.” A year afterwards Louis was still amazed: “The day we carried you, you had a fever of 104 or more, but you were not delirious. You looked quite serene, and every now and then you would tell us not to put ourselves out on your account.” I would gladly have explained it to Louis and Pavel, but the whole affair was beyond words and still is.
Sickness had rescued me from fear, it had even rescued me from death. Let me say to you simply that without it I never would have survived. From the first moments of sickness I had gone off into another world, quite consciously. I was not delirious. Louis was right, I still had the look of tranquility, more so than ever. That was the miracle.
I watched the states of my own illness quite clearly. I saw the organs of my body blocked up or losing control one after the other, first my lungs, then my intestines, then my ears, all my muscles, and last of all my heart, which was functioning badly and filled me with a vast, unusual sound. I knew exactly what it was, this thing I was watching: my body in the act of leaving this world, not wanting to leave it right away, not even wanting to leave it at all. I could tell by the pain my body was causing me, twisting and turning in every direction like snakes that have been cut in pieces.
Have I said that death was already there? If I have I was wrong. Sickness and pain, yes, but not death. Quite the opposite, life, and that was the unbelievable thing that had taken possession of me. I had never lived so fully before.
Life had become a substance within me. It broke into my cage, pushed by a force a thousand times stronger than I. It was certainly not made of flesh and blood, not even of ideas. It came toward me like a shimmering wave, like the caress of light. Icould see it behind my eyes and my forehead and above my head. It touched me and filled me to overflowing. I let myself float upon it.
There wre names which I mumbled from the depths of my astonishment. No doubt my lips did not speak them, but then had their own song: “Providence, the guarding Angel, Jesus Christ, God.” I didn’t try to turn it over in my mind. It was not just the time for metaphysics. I drew my strength from the spring. I kept on drinking and drinking still more. I was not going to leave that celestial stream. For that matter it was not strange to me, having come to me right after my old accident when I found I was blind. Here was the same thing all over again, the Life which sustained the life in me.
The Lord took pity on the poor mortal who was so helpless before him. It is true I was quite unable to help myself. All of us are incapable of helping ourselves. Now I knew it, and knew that it was true of the SS among the first. That was something to make one smile.
But there was one thing left which I could do: not refuse God’s help, the breath he was blowing upon me. That was the one battle I had to fight, hard and wonderful all at once: not to let my body be taken by the fear. For fear kills, and joy maintains life.
Slowly I came back from the dead, and when, one morning, one of my neighbors – I found out later he was an atheist and thought he was doing the right thing – shouted in my ear that I didn’t have a chance in the world of getting through it, so I had better prepare myself, he got my answer full in the face, a burst of laughter. He didn’t understand that laugh, but he never forgot it.
On My 8, I left the hospital on my two feet. I was nothing but skin and bones, but I had recovered. The fact was I was so happy that now Buchenwald seemed to me a place which if not welcome was at least possible. If they didn’t give me any bread to eat, I would feed on hope.
I was the truth. I still had eleven months ahead of me in the camp. But today I have not a single evil memory of those three hundred and thirty days of extreme wretchedness. I was carried by a hand. I was covered by a wing. One doesn’t call such a thing emotions by their names. I hardly needed to look out for myself, and such concern would have seemed to me ridiculous. I knew it was dangerous and it was forbidden. I was free now to help the others; not always, not much, but in my own way I could help.
I could try to show other people how to go about holding on to life. I could turn toward them the flow of light and joy which had grown so abundant in me. From that time on they stopped stealing my bread or my soup. It never happened again. Often my comrades would wake me up in the night and take me to comfort someone, sometimes a long way off in another block.
Almost everyone forgot I was a student. I became “the blind Frenchman.” For many, I was just “the man who didn’t die.” Hundreds of people confided in me. The mend were determined to talk to me. They spoke to me in French, in Russian, in German, in Polish. I did the best I could to understand them all. That is how I lived, how I survived. The rest I cannot describe.

- Jacque Lusseyran, And There was Light
 
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idea

Question Everything
It was on a Thursday morning just as he was about to leave for school that Harvey told his apartment-mate of his decision. It was only later that he realized how shattering that was to the distraught man. Apparently he had become Jack’s only security. Now love was being withdrawn, and his whole world was collapsing.
The agitated Jack pleaded at first. Then rage took over. He struck out at Harvey, who protected himself from the flailing arms and held them until the other boy quieted down.
When the anger seemed to be spent, Harvey went over to the mirror to tend to a cut on his nose. At that moment, he heard a noise like a snarl behind him. As he wheeled, Jack shoved the door to with one foot. In one hand he was brandishing a hammer.
Harvey was not frightened. He was a larger man than his apartment-mate; he was sure he could disarm him easily. But as he grabbed for the hammer and kicked it under the dresser, he felt a heavy blow in the back. Then as the two men grappled, there were two more sharp thrusts in Harvey’s back.
This was the worst tantrum yet. He must get Jack out of the room. He shoved his antagonist back to the door, then held him with one hand, while with the other he turned the latch. Suddenly there wre two more lunges at him, one to the abdomen and one to the chest. And at that moment Harvey’s eyes caught the flash of a knife.
Summoning all his strength, he shoved Jack into the hall, the building superintendent, had a workshop just down the hall. Perhaps he would hear. Then Harvey realized that his voice did not sound right. Feeling something sticky on his sweater, he looked down. Red-tinged bubbles were seeping through the sweater from his chest. A sickening realization swept him. “I’ve been stabbed. My lungs are punctured.” He swayed, then steadied himself against the door.
Immediately there was a knock. Must be Mr. Rogers, The wounded man managed to open the door, then collapsed in a heap on the floor.
The superintendent too one horrified look. Blood-specks had spattered the young man’s face and sweater. A red stain was spreading across his chest. Color was draining from Harvey’s face, his eyes were glazing.
Fear gripped Mr. Rogers. Without realizing what he was doing, he left Harvey where he was and ran to get the police, leaving the apartment door open.
Jack appeared again in the doorway. He stood over his helpless victim, the bloody knife still in his hand. Lying there, Harvey knew that there was nothing he could do to prevent Jack from finishing the job. One more stab would probably be enough.
Instead, Jack half-lifted, half-dragged Harvey to the bed. From far away, his assailant’s voice came to him, “Harvey, can you forgive me?”
Harvey tried to open his eyes. Jack’s face swam hazily above him. Jack was sorry. The haze cleared a bit. He saw Jack raise the knife to plunge it into his own chest. Must stop him-must. With his last strength, Harvey half-raised himself, grabbed the knife, and drpped it behind the bed.
Now the blackness started to close in. But Jack;s request for forgiveness lay like a stone on Harvey’s mind. He heard his own voice from a great distance, “Yes Jack, I forgive you.”
Mind and spirit seemed to be separating from body. That’s not me, the natural man speaking. That came as a response from all the things I’ve ever learned in my Christian faith…
There were no mo more thoughts.

 

idea

Question Everything
In the operating theatre of Knickerbocker Hospital on New York’s West Side, Dr. Ruth Selznick was examining Harvey smith’s multiple chest wounds. The skilled physician, a specialist in chest surgery, had never seen a worse case. Five deep knife wounds, lungs rapidly filling with blood… patient in a state of deep shock…
She set to work. Hours went by. Then suddenly there was a new crisis. The patient’s breathing stopped. A split-second decision required a new incision, then alternate pressure and suction on the lungs. No response from the inert form on the table. Minutes passed … four … six. Suddenly a tremor went through the patient’s body. Harvey began to breathe again.
Seven hours and fifty minutes after having been placed on the table, Harvey was wheeled from the operating room. But the struggle to live had only begun. The doctor sat by his bed and labored over him all that night.
For a week Harvey hung between life and death. Most of the time he was conscious and thinking clearly, but he ha to lie still. With both lungs punctured and collapsed, the least movement might cause hemorrhaging.
There was pain too-much pain, and at moments, self-pity. Do I really know the meaning of forgiveness? I told Jack I had forgiven him. I gave it all I had. And it wasn’t enough, because I still feel resentful.
Harvey law very still, thinking. His thoughts roamed over the weeks prior to the stabbing. Then an idea came to him. Are any of us ever blameless? Maybe it had been out of pride and not a little self-righteousness that he had been trying to help Jack. Perhaps his “goodness” had actually been a stumbling block to Jack.
Then the pain would come back again. Harvey would asp for a breath that was slow in coming. Nothing but a gurgling sound deep in his chest. And in his heart, fera.
This isn’t easy. Forgiveness is costly. Am I really willing to pay the price? Do I really forgive him?
It seemed even more costly that day when Harvey heard that Jack was building his testimony on the basis of self-defense. Harvey’s fingerprints were on the hammer. Of course they were! So Jack had decided to plead that he had been attacked first, had struck with the knife only to protect himself. Grimly Harvey pondered the irony of it. Forgiveness is costly…
He thought back to that moment when he had lain on the bed with Jack standing over him brandishing the bloody knife. “Yes Jack, I forgive you…” The instinct that had told him that this was not really him speaking had been right.
He had not the ability to get rid of the surging resentments, the bitterness, the self-pity, the temptation to compare Jack’s conduct to his. He could not cleanse himself of those emotions, but the One who had spoken those words of forgiveness for him that day in the apartment could complete the job for him now. All he had to do was to be willing to let the resentment go and to set his will toward forgiveness. Christ would do the rest. But forgiveness is costly: it cost Christ a great deal.
As he lay in his hospital bed, near death, Harvey found the meaning of life. Out of new understanding, once more from the depths of his being, came the words “Jack I forgive you.” And at last there was peace in his heart.
Meanwhile, during those weeks in the hospital, Harvey’s friends at the Young Adult group of the Marble Collegiate Church were donating blood-a great deal of it. Over and over they met to pray for Harvey and for Jack. One member of the group was Ann Hougasian, whom Harvey had met some months before.
Quietly the young people raised the money to pay all of Harvey’s hospital expenses. Daily they inquired about him, sent flowers, fruit, showered small kindnesses on him. Through them christ’s love was flowing to him. He dared not dam up any of that love and prevent it from flowing to the one who needed it most-Jack.
Then Harvey learned something else about forgiveness. It was his read-haired doctor who taught him.
“You’re going to get well,” she told him one morning.
The patient smiled at her. “I’ve known that several day. It’s mostly thanks to you, too.”
“No-o. There’s another reason. Your condition has been so precarious that anything could have tipped the scales.”
“what do you mean?”
“I’ve watched you closely. You’ve been at peace with yourself, especially the last ten days. If you had held on to any hate at all, that negative emotion would have sapped so much of your energy that you probably would not have pulled through.”
Throughout the rest of the day, Harvey pondered the doctor’s words. In this case, hateful unforgiving thoughts would literally have destroyed him.
The doctor was right. Her patient eventually did make a complete recovery. And Harvey, convinced that his life had been spared for some purpose, became intent on finding that purpose.
It was more than three years before he knew. On the meantime, he had taken a full-time job with the Boy scouts of America. On Christmas Day 1952 he and Ann Hougasian were married in a quit ceremony in La Grange, Georgia.
Len and I had listened to this gripping story through part of the morning and during lunch. Immediately after lunch our twelve year old Linda appeared in the doorway. “Daddy, I’ve spilled something on the rug by my bed and need to use the vacuum sweeper. But it won’t work. Something’s wrong. Will you -?”
“I’ll have a look at it,” Len said. Soon he and Harvey were down on hands and knees taking the plug apart. In the end, it was Harvey who found the loose wire and reconnected it. I remember this little incident because what to some might have been an annoying interruption was to Harvey Smith a pleasure: he was helping someone.
- Catherine Marshall, Beyond Ourself

21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
(New Testament | Romans 12:21)

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
(New Testament | Revelation 21:7)
 
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idea

Question Everything
Sorry, perhaps I did not state that clearly. The point is, you don’t gain strength from an experience by laying down and letting it overpower you. You gain strength by standing up and fighting against it, overcoming it. The pain itself does not strengthen you, it is overcoming the pain that strengthens you. The more you overcome, the stronger you become… Do you agree?

9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
(New Testament | 2 Corinthians12:9 - 10)

The above are examples of people who were strengthened through overcoming what most would say "you can't overcome".



Have you seen "The Day The Earth Stood Still?" Here is a quote from the movie:

"At the precipice, people evolve." - Professor Barnhardt
We don't grow until we are brought to the precipice.
 
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Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
So, what can we say about God?

Hi Beaudreaux, perhaps it would be appropriate to read what the Bible has to say about your question!

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.
 

blackout

Violet.
Why doesn't God stop evil, pain and suffering?

Because evil, pain and suffering is all an integral part
of the EXPERIENCE OF GOD...
or
"The gOd Experience".


The Panenthiest has spoken. :D

Bow Down!
 
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Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
Why doesn't God stop evil, pain and suffering?
A deity has to have some entertainment, the suffering of humans can be a good comic relief... ever wondered why all the best and most popular sitcoms and comedies are focused on the misfortunes of other people to the delight of the audience?
 

idea

Question Everything
Hi Beaudreaux, perhaps it would be appropriate to read what the Bible has to say about your question!

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.

“create” is a bad translation. God “transforms” evil and darkness into peace and light. This scripture is describing the incredible powers of transformation that God has.
7 I form the light out of darkness: I make peace out of evil: I the LORD do all these things.
(Old Testament | Isaiah45:7)

Here is orig Hebrew:
Blue Letter Bible - Isa 45 (KJV)
notice the word "create" - bara - should be "transform:
Blue Letter Bible - Isa 45 (KJV)
1) to create, shape, form
a) (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject)
1) of heaven and earth
2) of individual man
3) of new conditions and circumstances
4) of transformations
b) (Niphal) to be created
1) of heaven and earth
2) of birth
3) of something new
4) of miracles
c) (Piel)
1) to cut down
2) to cut out
2) to be fat
a) (Hiphil) to make yourselves fat


He is "transforming" evil / darkness - refining it into something good.


Here is another site:
Hebrew Word Studies
The English word "create" is an abstract word and a foriegn concept to the Hebrews. While we see God as one who makes something from nothing (create), the Hebrews saw God like a bird who goes about acquiring and gathering materials to build a nest (qen), the sky and earth.


IOW - The word "create" should not appear anywhere in the Bible.!!!!!
The word “create” does not exist in ancient Hebrew.

God refines, forms, organizes - He does not "create"...

The beginning was not a state of nothingness, it was a state of unformed material.
2 And the earth was without form,
(Old Testament | Genesis1:2)

God forms what is without form.

9 I will refine them as silver is refined,
(Old Testament | Zechariah13:9)


Form (see also Create; Fashion; Invent; Make; Shape)
Gen. 1:2 (Moses 2:2) earth was without f.
Gen. 2:7 (D&C 77:12; Moses 3:7; Abr. 5:7) God f. man of the dust
Gen. 2:19 God f. every beast
Deut. 32:18 hast forgotten God that f. thee
Ps. 90:2 ever thou hadst f. the earth
Prov. 26:10 great God that f. all things
Isa. 44:2 (49:5; 1 Ne. 21:5) f. thee from the womb
Isa. 44:21 thou art my servant: I have f. thee
Isa. 53:2 (Mosiah 14:2) he hath no f. nor comeliness
Isa. 54:17 (D&C 71:9; 109:25) No weapon that is f. against thee shall prosper
Jer. 1:5 before I f. thee in the belly I knew thee
Dan. 3:25 f. of the fourth is like the Son
Amos 4:13 he that f. the mountains
Mark 16:12 he appeared in another f. unto two of them
Rom. 2:20 instructor of the foolish ... which hast the f. of knowledge
Rom. 9:20 Shall the thing f. say to him that f. it
Gal. 4:19 travail ... until Christ be f. in you
Philip. 2:6 who, being in the f. of God
1 Tim. 2:13 Adam was first f., then Eve
(Topical Guide | FForm:Entry)

etc. etc.
 
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Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
“create” is a bad translation. God “transforms” evil and darkness into peace and light. This scripture is describing the incredible powers of transformation that God has.
7 I form the light out of darkness: I make peace out of evil: I the LORD do all these things.
(Old Testament | Isaiah45:7)
Here is orig Hebrew:
Blue Letter Bible - Isa 45 (KJV)
notice the word "create" - bara - should be "transform:
Blue Letter Bible - Isa 45 (KJV)
1) to create, shape, form
a) (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject)
1) of heaven and earth
2) of individual man
3) of new conditions and circumstances
4) of transformations
b) (Niphal) to be created
1) of heaven and earth
2) of birth
3) of something new
4) of miracles
c) (Piel)
1) to cut down
2) to cut out
2) to be fat
a) (Hiphil) to make yourselves fat

He is "transforming" evil / darkness - refining it.

I'd like you to address this.

In the first passage of the Hebrew bible,the word 'Bara' is used (Created):
בְּרֵאשִׁית, בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים, אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם, וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ

Then in Isaiah 45:7 the word Bore (creating/creator) is used again:

אֲנִי יְהוָה, וְאֵין עוֹד. ז יוֹצֵר אוֹר וּבוֹרֵא חֹשֶׁךְ, עֹשֶׂה שָׁלוֹם וּבוֹרֵא רָע; אֲנִי יְהוָה, עֹשֶׂה כָל-אֵלֶּה.
 

idea

Question Everything
IN the beginning God "formed" the heaven and the earth.
(Old Testament | Genesis1:1)

In all cases, it should be translated "formed"

again.
Hebrew Word Studies
The English word "create" is an abstract word and a foriegn concept to the Hebrews

I'd like you to address this.

In the first passage of the Hebrew bible,the word 'Bara' is used (Created):
בְּרֵאשִׁית, בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים, אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם, וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ

Then in Isaiah 45:7 the word Bore (creating/creator) is used again:

אֲנִי יְהוָה, וְאֵין עוֹד. ז יוֹצֵר אוֹר וּבוֹרֵא חֹשֶׁךְ, עֹשֶׂה שָׁלוֹם וּבוֹרֵא רָע; אֲנִי יְהוָה, עֹשֶׂה כָל-אֵלֶּה.

It is the same idea in both cases, God is taking chaos and making it into something organized / beautiful.

God is cleaning up a mess He did not make. That is what makes Him so loving, perfect, selfless, etc...


 
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Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
IN the beginning God "formed" the heaven and the earth.
(Old Testament | Genesis1:1)

In all cases, it should be translated "formed"

again.
Hebrew Word Studies
The English word "create" is an abstract word and a foriegn concept to the Hebrews
Type in your search engine 'God formed the heavens and the earth' and your results will be 'God created..'
While on the philosophical level I can relate to the notion of a concept of a deity which transforms, in Hebrew there are several words that are related to the word 'created' and that is 'bara' which is exclusively used in relation to the works of the God of the Hebrews, and Yetzirah, which some translate as to create and some as to form. (see Book of Formation/Book of Creation)
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
“create” is a bad translation. God “transforms” evil and darkness into peace and light.

Hi idea, there is more to it then just a bad translation!...

Matthew 10:39 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
It is the same idea in both cases, God is taking chaos and making it into something organized.
Although not from a religious perspective, I relate to this concept.
 
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idea

Question Everything
Type in your search engine 'God formed the heavens and the earth' and your results will be 'God created..'
While on the philosophical level I can relate to the notion of a concept of a deity which transforms, in Hebrew there are several words that are related to the word 'created' and that is 'bara' which is exclusively used in relation to the works of the God of the Hebrews, and Yetzirah, which some translate as to create and some as to form. (see Book of Formation/Book of Creation)

create is rather different than form is it not? In any event, you can either think God is perfect, love, etc... in which to me He did not "create" evil, but rather "transforms and refines" it... or, you can think He made it all from nothing - which goes against His being perfect, (and goes against science - you don't get something from nothing, laws of thermo - conservation of mass / energy = everything has always existed... changes form, but everything is eternal) I guess you could poetically say our initial state is one of nothingness, that the transformation is so complete that it could be called a creation. The point is, don't blame God for the original state of things.

25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
(New Testament | Mark3:25)
God would be divided against Himself if He - directly or indirectly - created evil.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
yes yes, we can go through all of the scripts people use to claim God is a horrible monster...

34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
(New Testament | Matthew10:34)

the point being He will not let people rest in peace when they have not been transformed... refined in the fire...
21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.
(2 Nephi28:21)

10 ....the sword reacheth unto the soul.
(Old Testament | Jeremiah4:10)
- that is why He uses a sword...
Thankfully, He won't sit back and let us comfortably wallow in any unformed state.
 
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Pastafarian

New Member
Pastafarians believe that the Flying Spaghetti Monster created us while drinking too much. FSM got drunk and created us. thats why there is suffering. so we all have to suffer because of FSM's mistake. but i forgive him! when we die we can either go to heaven or hell. so just think, when we die we get out of suffering. that is if your good. so look on the bright side. His Noodliness the Flying Spaghetti Monster created a heaven for us to go to and live in peace.
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
The point is, don't blame God for the original state of things.
With all due respect, I believe its possible (and desirable) for adults to engage in a normal dialogue about semantics and philology without these kind of side notes. there isnt a need to take it personally or too seriously, after all, most of us like to educate ourselves, not preach.
 

herushura

Active Member
create is rather different than form is it not? In any event, you can either think God is perfect, love, etc... in which to me He did not "create" evil, but rather "transforms and refines" it... or, you can think He made it all from nothing - which goes against His being perfect, (and goes against science - you don't get something from nothing, laws of thermo - conservation of mass / energy = everything has always existed... changes form, but everything is eternal) I guess you could poetically say our initial state is one of nothingness, that the transformation is so complete that it could be called a creation. The point is, don't blame God for the original state of things.

25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
(New Testament | Mark3:25)
God would be divided against Himself if He - directly or indirectly - created evil.

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yes yes, we can go through all of the scripts people use to claim God is a horrible monster...

34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
(New Testament | Matthew10:34)

the point being He will not let people rest in peace when they have not been transformed... refined in the fire...


10 ....the sword reacheth unto the soul.
(Old Testament | Jeremiah4:10)
- that is why He uses a sword...
21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.
(2 Nephi28:21)
Thankfully, He won't sit back and let us comfortably wallow in any unformed state.


The Bible Quotes you throw in the conversation is nonesense, the bible deals with issues that occured thousands of year ago, why would the bible magicly have quotes
that are about todays issues, you dont see Credit Crunch, Suicide Bombers and Global Warming in the bible, just issue that only have reason to people times ago.

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
(New Testament | Matthew10:34)

That bible make no sense , not send peace send sword, sound like a Merlin Parralel, hey what about a Machine Gun instead, ths is just astrological thing, the sword is held by "Orion".

21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.
(2 Nephi28:21)

Zion can mean two things an Astrological location or a Earthly location, Zi means Arid Place like a Dessert and On is the Egytpian/Hebrew word for Heliopolis the city of the Sun, thus Zion is the place were the sun temple is and where the sun travels along the Zodiac, (Down,Hell,Devil) are associated with Death at sunset and soltices, and also personifes the shortening of days after sep 21, same reason why Holloween is celabrated in Autumn.

And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
(New Testament | Mark3:25)

Ancient called each zodiac a House, they are 12 houses in which the Sun-Man travels across at the end he dies, and is ressurected back into house 1.
 
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