Why doesn't God stop evil, pain and suffering?

[Alla Prima]

actually, happiness is dependent on suffering...

Ok I'm looking forward to an explanation of this one.

life does not even exist without death. Life is a relative term too.

My comment was - "I don't need the suffering of others to appreciate life" so I'm not speaking about death but life. I can appreciate life simply by noting the good things I do for others in this lifetime. I don't need to narrowly escape death or see the suffering of others to appreciate life and in fact seeing the suffering of others in no way enhances my appreciation of life. Probably the reverse.

 

[Alla Prima]

It does not enrich your life until you overcome it.

To what end?

 

[Alla Prima]

you don't get something from nothing,

But 'God' is postulated as an inherently existing being. Alpha and Omega. He exists causelessly. So for those who postulate such a being we do indeed have something from nothing.

 

[Sententia]

Sorry, perhaps I did not state that clearly. The point is, you don’t gain strength from an experience by laying down and letting it overpower you. You gain strength by standing up and fighting against it, overcoming it. The pain itself does not strengthen you, it is overcoming the pain that strengthens you. The more you overcome, the stronger you become… Do you agree?

That's right up there with that which does not kill me makes me stronger? An obvious half lie.

Yes harrowing experiences of suffering and torture can make you stronger but how and why?

Take a person who has never suffered and never endured pain or torture. Take another PoW who has overcome his past. Is the latter happier, stronger and more enriched then the former?

Maybe. Thats it. It is possible - Just as is the case with everyone else.

There are those that postulate having suffered through the experiences of poverty and growing up with a single mom etc etc only has lead to a strength of character and a more enriching life and experience there of. Which is in comparison to what? To if they had grown up without pain and suffering? Then there is Ann Coulter who said if you have ever been a victim of a crime thank a single mom.

Do you not think its possible that one who has never suffered can be stronger, happier and have a life more enriching then one who has suffered?

The bible says in revelations that death, pain and suffering will be no more. If such a prophecy were visited upon current humans would they all end up less enriched and never as strong as those humans that overcame great difficulties in their lives?

So when you ask if I agree... No... the more you overcome does not neccesarilly lead to becoming stronger. It could. However its not required.

 

[Heneni]

I think my accusation of God is unassailable. My accusation is this:

• Millions of people endure pain, suffering and death due to natural disasters.
• God could have prevented these disasters.
• He did not.

Do you think I'm off somewhere here? Am I "blaming" God for this obvious lack of action? How would you defend him? How would you blame the suffering of disease, famine and other natural disasters on humans?

Millions of people hurt themselves and others, why dont they stop?
Millions of people endure suffering due to natural disasters...why do they still build their cities so close to the water, and why do they build massive cities on earthquake prone sites, and at the base of an active volcano?

I think we have a lot we can do...before god has to get involved. Like use our brain?

And also...if god interfered with mother natures way of sustaining herself, hed not only be interfering with the survival of millions of people but everybodys survival. He made the earth to sustain herself and us. She's doing what she has been designed to do. Why should god interfere with a perfect system? He made it perfect. Do you want him to change it so that billions die to save a few million?

You have this idea that god has so much power and is relucant to use it. If you had the power you would DO something no doubt. Well, god did DO something...he made earth self-sustaining. He used his power to make it. Must he now use his power to break it so that you can be happy that he DID something?

 

[Alla Prima]

Millions of people hurt themselves and others, why dont they stop?

Who created them so that they could hurt themselves and others?

Millions of people endure suffering due to natural disasters...why do they still build their cities so close to the water, and why do they build massive cities on earthquake prone sites, and at the base of an active volcano?

Why didn't God simply create a world where there were no violent storms?

And also...if god interfered with mother natures way of sustaining herself, hed not only be interfering with the survival of millions of people but everybodys survival.

God created Mother Nature. His fault.

You have this idea that god has so much power and is relucant to use it. If you had the power you would DO something no doubt. Well, god did DO something...he made earth self-sustaining. He used his power to make it. Must he now use his power to break it so that you can be happy that he DID something?

I think you're having trouble thinking outside the box.

 

[Storm]

I don't need the suffering of others to appreciate life.

Actually, there I was referring to the personal level.

The happiness you're thinking of isn't happiness. Real happiness isn't dependent on suffering.

Well, if some random guy on the internet says so....

This isn't a conversation. If you want to have a conversation, you have to do more than contradict everything I say.

And so far no one's been able to answer my question.

Uh, yes, I have. The fact that you don't like the answer doesn't change that.

 

[Storm]

Honestly... I have had chemotherapy, radiation treatment and many surgeries. I spent weekend after weekend dry heaving and wretching. I got stabbed in the spine for bone marrow samples on a weekly basis and my blood was taken and tested so often it seemed like a regular part of waking up to me at 6am. I have been stabbed with a knife in the gut. I grew up in neighborhoods where the occasional sound of gunfire meant the rest of the night would be peaceful and I could sleep. I have moved 41 times. I have had blankets measured in inches over me when I went to sleep because we couldnt afford heat. I have stood in lines in the bitter cold for hours to get a can of peanut butter, a box of cheese and a loaf of bread. I watched my mom work 100 hours a weeks and 3 jobs to support her 3 kids as a single mom because she didnt want to be on welfare. I have been beaten to a pulp as a kid for talking back. I have felt the sting of a whip, the smack of a spatula and thud of frying pan. I have been pushed down flights of stairs and been bitten and bleeding by both humans and dogs.

Suffering does not enrich your life. It cripples you. You relive experiences you never wish you had to go through. You were in pain and to this day I have the markers. Premature grey hair, scars and memories. My nightmares are not frequent but are unfathombly torturous. I wake up strangling myself in my bed sheets. I remember the blue masks. The sounds and the screaming. Most people repress painful crap. I may embrace it but I would never advocate to go through what I have. And the sad part is. When I reflect on my experiences and what I went through. I had it good. I had a near optimal life. I was a white male in america. Go figure.

Well, maybe I'm just weird then. But to pick one of many harships I've been through, I used to sleep under bridges. There's not a day goes by I'm not deeply grateful for the roof over my head, something most people take for granted. And it's not just that.

I used to think that too but Happiness and sadness are different in the brain. Lacking one does not mean lacking the other.

I dunno. I think balance is necessary in all things. Nothing has meaning without a context.

 

[Alla Prima]

Actually, there I was referring to the personal level.

As was I.

Well, if some random guy on the internet says so....

Refute at will.

This isn't a conversation. If you want to have a conversation, you have to do more than contradict everything I say.

FYI we're having a debate not a conversation. This is a debate forum.

Uh, yes, I have. The fact that you don't like the answer doesn't change that.

It's not that I don't 'like' the answer it's that your answers are nonsensical and full of holes - some of which I've pointed out.

 

[Storm]

Refute at will.

Refute what? You haven't actually said anything of substance.

FYI we're having a debate not a conversation. This is a debate forum.

No s***, sherlock. A debate is a form of conversation. One which requires you to support your position, which you haven't even tried to do.

It's not that I don't 'like' the answer it's that your answers are nonsensical and full of holes - some of which I've pointed out.

1) No, you haven't. You just said I was wrong. It's insufficient.
2) My apologies, I got you confused with Beadrueax. What was your question?

 

[idea]

With all due respect, I believe its possible (and desirable) for adults to engage in a normal dialogue about semantics and philology without these kind of side notes. there isnt a need to take it personally or too seriously, after all, most of us like to educate ourselves, not preach.

Sorry, did not mean that to sound offensive to anyone. There is much to be said for semantics though... It is a good thing to clearly define words to try and minimize the amount of miscommunication that goes on. Many people blame God for the messed up state of things. I have a slightly different belief, I think the Bible tells us God is "organizing" transforming what He didnot create. I do not blame God for creating any of the mess, I don't think He had anything to do with that...

in a beginning... "God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with Himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits. " - LDS.org - Ensign Article - The King Follett Sermon

IOW - God saw a mess (glorious mess with potential) said, if you want to better yourself, here is how you do it... He won't force anyone to do anyting, it is all our choice... I think it would be stupid not to follow Him though...

“If there lurks in most modern minds the notion that to desire our own good and earnestly to hope for the enjoyment of it is a bad thing, I submit that this notion has crept in from Kant and the Stoics and is no part of the Christian faith. Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak.

We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.”
The Weight of Glory and other addresses, by C.S. Lewis. (The Macmillian Company, New York 1949).


9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
(New Testament | 1 Corinthians2:9)

 

[idea]

Ok I'm looking forward to an explanation of this one.

You know the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
(Old Testament | Genesis2:17)

I think they literally had no knowledge of good or evil until they experienced the guilt of going against a commandment.

I believe that eating the fruit was actually a good thing:
not out of the Bible but... It is part of the scriptures I use.
10 And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have ejoy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.
11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.
(Pearl of Great Price | Moses5:10 - 11)

Opposites define one another.
Is hot chocolate refreshing in the summer? No – it has to be cold out to enjoy it.
Have you ever been hot-tubbing in the snow? Nothing is better.
Water – is it your #1 choice of beverage? I don’t think anyone appreciates it fully until after they have run a marathon across the desert, or fasted for Ramadan – going without is where you appreciate it.
You don’t appreciate family to the fullest extent until you have gone without for a bit.
No mountain tops without the valleys below.
It's relativity.

My comment was - "I don't need the suffering of others to appreciate life" so I'm not speaking about death but life. I can appreciate life simply by noting the good things I do for others in this lifetime. I don't need to narrowly escape death or see the suffering of others to appreciate life and in fact seeing the suffering of others in no way enhances my appreciation of life. Probably the reverse.

Sure, some level of appreciation, but not the fullest level of it...

8 And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.
(New Testament | Luke16:8)

I think the "children of light" are those who go through life without any major trials - sure everyone has something, but some have more than others. The children of light have a lot of good things going for them, but they do not have the wisdom that experience gives...

 

[idea]

But 'God' is postulated as an inherently existing being. Alpha and Omega. He exists causelessly. So for those who postulate such a being we do indeed have something from nothing.

I am saying there was never a time of nothingness. Yes, self-existent, no beginning, no end, never a time when He (and everything else) did not exist in one form or another. I don't understand how you are trying to put nothing back into it?

Nothing does not exist. There is no such thing as nothing.

It is like asking "Where is the edge of the world? There is no edge.

The origins debate is pointless, there is no origin, there is no ultimate beginning.

5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
(Old Testament | Jeremiah1:5)
our birth is not our beginning. We have no beginning.

Also not in the Bible...
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. bntelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.
30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.
31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.


Do you have a free will? Our free will is proof that we are eternal beings. Agency cannot be created.

 

[idea]

To what end?

To have wisdom, to gain self-mastery, to rise above being slaves to our environments, to learn how to control our minds, our attitudes, our character, to become creators – or organizers – to act rather than be acted upon, to become self-existent rather than other-existent, to be alive – to have life springing up from within.

 

[idea]

Do you not think its possible that one who has never suffered can be stronger, happier and have a life more enriching then one who has suffered?

To me, the person who has lived the fullest, understood the most / appreciated the most is Jesus.
Jesus is also the one who suffered the most.

The bible says in revelations that death, pain and suffering will be no more. If such a prophecy were visited upon current humans would they all end up less enriched and never as strong as those humans that overcame great difficulties in their lives?

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
(New Testament | Revelation21:4)

Everyone experiences sin, everyone will die, everyone will experience it / learn from it. When we are on the other side of it, when we can appreciate everything... It will have served a purpose...

"I could not be what I am now if I had not been what I was" - - by ??

What we can become justifies whatever we have to go through to get there.


28 all things work together for good to them that love God
(New Testament | Romans8:28)

all things.

from an old post:

Metanoia

I recently learned a new word, wanted to share it with you. It is Greek, and is used numerous times in the New Testament. To understand what the word means, you have to break it into parts

Meta = change (like meta state)
Noia = perception / mind / consciousness / awareness

So Metanoia is a change in how you perceive what is reality.

My s.i.l. was telling me about a new movie. The movie is about a couple that go through a separation, is done from the viewpoint of the wife. The wife finds evidence that her husband is unfaithful. The husband leaves her, never calls, does not seem to feel the least bit of remorse for what he has done to her. The entire movie is the wife trying to cope with feelings of rejection and misuse. At the end of the movie, the husband is found, he has been killed in an accident. He was never unfaithful. He did not return her phone calls because he was dead. She was living in a world that did not really exist. Her feelings were real, anger, jealousy, hatred – all real feelings, all created by a lie.

There are many movies like this that are made. There is some big twist at the end, some new piece of information given, that changes the reality of what you have just seen.

When we are angry and hurt – what reality are we living in? Are we living in a world of our own imagination? Is there some new piece of information that would allow us to see our world in a new light – a change in mind, change in consciousness, change in awareness that make anger and hurt go away?

From here: Metanoia: Turn toward the light
Imagine you are standing in a circle of people.
In the center of the circle, there is a source of light.
But rather than facing the center and the light, you are standing with your back to the light, facing outward.
When you stand this way, facing away from the light, all you can see is your own shadow.
You cannot see the light.
You can only look into your shadow.
You cannot see the others in the circle with you.
From what you can see, you are disconnected and alone in the dark.
Now imagine that you turn around to face the light that is in the center of the circle.
When you turn toward the light, you no longer see only darkness.
When you turn toward the light, your shadow is behind you.
When you turn toward the light, you can now see the other people who are standing with you.
You can see that the light is shining on everyone and that you are all connected in its radiance.
Metanoia is turning from dark to light.

Jesus spent his entire mission preaching our need for metanoia.
Metanoia is translated in the English language as "repentance."

It could...

 

[Alla Prima]

To have wisdom, to gain self-mastery, to rise above being slaves to our environments, to learn how to control our minds, our attitudes, our character, to become creators – or organizers – to act rather than be acted upon, to become self-existent rather than other-existent, to be alive – to have life springing up from within.

Ok good now let me ask you this. Why didn't God create us to have all of these things you find so desireable or important?

 

[Freelancer7]

What would one expect God to do in the first instance?

 

[idea]

Ok good now let me ask you this. Why didn't God create us to have all of these things you find so desireable or important?

God did not create us.

How many times do I have to say it?

God did not create us.
God did not create us.
God did not create us.

He is forming what eternally exists. We have no beginning.

in a beginning... "God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. "


Hebrew Word Studies
The English word "create" is an abstract word and a foriegn concept to the Hebrews.

IOW - The word "create" should not appear anywhere in the Bible.!!!!!
The word “create” does not exist in ancient Hebrew.

God refines, forms, organizes - He does not "create"...

 

[Alla Prima]

Opposites define one another.
Is hot chocolate refreshing in the summer? No – it has to be cold out to enjoy it.
Have you ever been hot-tubbing in the snow? Nothing is better.
Water – is it your #1 choice of beverage? I don’t think anyone appreciates it fully until after they have run a marathon across the desert, or fasted for Ramadan – going without is where you appreciate it.
You don’t appreciate family to the fullest extent until you have gone without for a bit.
No mountain tops without the valleys below.
It's relativity.

You said:

actually, happiness is dependent on suffering...

No, the so called pleasures of this life are dependent on opposites. Happiness (not the fleeting relative pleasures you're referring to) is dependent not on it's opposite (unhappiness or suffering) but on right actions of body speech and mind.

 

[Alla Prima]

God did not create us.

How many times do I have to say it?

God did not create us.
God did not create us.
God did not create us.

He is forming what eternally exists. We have no beginning.

in a beginning... "God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. "


Hebrew Word Studies
The English word "create" is an abstract word and a foriegn concept to the Hebrews.

IOW - The word "create" should not appear anywhere in the Bible.!!!!!
The word “create” does not exist in ancient Hebrew.

God refines, forms, organizes - He does not "create"...

So God is just another player. Ok.