Why doesn't the Bible say what it means?

[waitasec]

They are not worshipping the same God! They are obeying what their religious leaders tells them, rather than obeying the same God.

Why?
For example, if Jews believed that Christianity is truely from the same God of Moses, then they would accept it. and If Christians believed that Islam is from the same God of Jesus, they would also accept Islam, and If Muslims believed that the Baha'i faith is from the same God, then they would also accept it.
Thus, the followers of every religion has accepted the previous religions, but not the ones after them.
Therefore they have not obeyed the same God.

that's not the point.
these religions are all connected to the same trunk of a tree, if you will.
religion evolves because people evolve...

are you telling me that the christian god, from the christian POV, is not an extension of the jewish god and the islamic god, from the islamists the POV, is not also an extension of the jewish god?
your god, from your POV, wouldn't be around with out the god of the OT.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

that's not the point.

these religions are all connected to the same trunk of a tree, if you will.
religion evolves because people evolve...

are you telling me that the christian god, from the christian POV, is not an extension of the jewish god and the islamic god, from the islamists the POV, is not also an extension of the jewish god?
your god, from your POV, wouldn't be around with out the god of the OT.

What I am suggesting is this;

Lets say for the sake of argument, that actually God who is the creator, sent these religions in order of time according to progressive revelation for guiding humanity. That is, Jewish faith, Christianity, Islam and Baha'i Faith.
Now with this assumption, then, each people did not accept the message according to the time from God, but rather they stick with a religion that was meant for an older period of time.


Now, going back to our previous discussion that you asked:

“why doesn't the bible emphatically state we all (all nations) are equal that no one is to dominate another, but instead is more concerned with how one worships god, an omniscient all powerful being?”


I am suggesting that, the advancement in world civilization is gradual and progressive.
Therefore it was to be implemented by progressive revelations from God and it wasn’t possible to implement that by lets say, only Christianity, or Jewish Faith.

Therefore those religions were very concerned to teach people to worship God and obey His successive revelations and warned them not to worship gods. And I have already explained in previous post, what was meant by ‘gods’.

 

[waitasec]

What I am suggesting is this;

Lets say for the sake of argument, that actually God who is the creator, sent these religions in order of time according to progressive revelation for guiding humanity. That is, Jewish faith, Christianity, Islam and Baha'i Faith.
Now with this assumption, then, each people did not accept the message according to the time from God, but rather they stick with a religion that was meant for an older period of time.


Now, going back to our previous discussion that you asked:

“why doesn't the bible emphatically state we all (all nations) are equal that no one is to dominate another, but instead is more concerned with how one worships god, an omniscient all powerful being?”


I am suggesting that, the advancement in world civilization is gradual and progressive.
Therefore it was to be implemented by progressive revelations from God and it wasn’t possible to implement that by lets say, only Christianity, or Jewish Faith.

Therefore those religions were very concerned to teach people to worship God and obey His successive revelations and warned them not to worship gods. And I have already explained in previous post, what was meant by ‘gods’.

these progressive revelations of god to me is a cop out for why religion hasn't spoken out about the crimes against humanity throughout history. religion relies on an absolute athority to tell it's followers what to do because it saves them the trouble of thinking out ethics for themselves. and when the secular world dictates a standard of morality, it was god's principle all along...hogwash (sorry, no offense to you)

 

[InvestigateTruth]

these progressive revelations of god to me is a cop out for why religion hasn't spoken out about the crimes against humanity throughout history.

But each one of these religions had new and good teachings with respect to their own time.
For example, the 10 commandment came more than 3000 years ago and said "do not kill, do not steal..." speaking for crimes against humanity.

Or for example, Baha'i Faith appeared about 150 years ago, for this age, it still has new teachings that brings humanity to the next level.

religion relies on an absolute authority to tell it's followers what to do because it saves them the trouble of thinking out ethics for themselves.

Do parents wait for their children to learn the ethics on their own or should day care for them and guide them?

and when the secular world dictates a standard of morality, it was god's principle all along...hogwash (sorry, no offense to you)

Did this secular world that dictates a standard of morality exist 2000 years ago or even 200 or even 150 years ago?

 

[waitasec]

But each one of these religions had new and good teachings with respect to their own time.
For example, the 10 commandment came more than 3000 years ago and said "do not kill, do not steal..." speaking for crimes against humanity.

do you really believe the jews in the wilderness didn't already know that killing was wrong? were they killing themselves left and right to get to their neighbors property?

Or for example, Baha'i Faith appeared about 150 years ago, for this age, it still has new teachings that brings humanity to the next level.

such as? did it come up with new laws concerning intellectual property :sarcastic

Do parents wait for their children to learn the ethics on their own or should day care for them and guide them?

kids are open, they don't hold any biases considering skin color or race.
do they. and to think that the human race is inclined to kill for the sake of killing is a bit of an over statment, don't you think?

Did this secular world that dictates a standard of morality exist 2000 years ago or even 200 or even 150 years ago?

edit:
Jarmo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
confucius 551-478 BC taught the golden rule
what did the age of enlightenment bring to the table...

 

[strikeviperMKII]

They are not worshipping the same God! They are obeying what their religious leaders tells them, rather than obeying the same God.

Why?
For example, if Jews believed that Christianity is truely from the same God of Moses, then they would accept it. and If Christians believed that Islam is from the same God of Jesus, they would also accept Islam, and If Muslims believed that the Baha'i faith is from the same God, then they would also accept it.
Thus, the followers of every religion has accepted the previous religions, but not the ones after them.
Therefore they have not obeyed the same God.

Their religious leaders are different, and if that's who their following, then that's why they are different. God is the same in all three religions, as well as just about every other religion, even polytheistic ones, and ones we don't really consider religions. There are a few exceptions, of course, but in my experience religions that last as long as Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism and many others, are all thinking along the same lines.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

do you really believe the jews in the wilderness didn't already know that killing was wrong? were they killing themselves left and right to get to their neighbors property?

Maybe they knew. But appearantly there has been alot of local conflicts and national wars going on at that time.
Thus, it would be logical that they should have recieved at least a reminder from God who cares for His creatures.

such as? did it come up with new laws concerning intellectual property :sarcastic

The Baha'i teachings is more concerned with a way of life, as well as ways to solve problems in the society for this age. Baha'u'llah revealed 100 volumes of new scriptures for this age.

For example Baha'u'llah writes:

"The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements."

Baha'u'llah makes Work in the spirit of service to be the same as worship:

"O people of Bahá! It is incumbent upon each one of you to engage in some occupation—
such as a craft, a trade or the like. We have exalted your engagement in such work to the rank
of worship of the one true God. Reflect, O people, on the grace and blessings of your Lord,
and yield Him thanks at eventide and dawn. Waste not your hours in idleness and sloth, but
occupy yourselves with what will profit you and others. Thus hath it been decreed in this
Tablet from whose horizon hath shone the day-star of wisdom and utterance. The most
despised of men in the sight of God are they who sit and beg. Hold ye fast unto the cord of
means and place your trust in God, the Provider of all means."


In the 19th centuary, when all those kings and nations were rising agains each other He wrote in a Tablet to the Kings:

"...They must put away the weapons of war, and turn to the instruments of universal reconstruction. Should one king rise up against another, all the other kings must arise to deter him. Arms and armaments will, then, be no more needed beyond that which is necessary to insure the internal security of their respective countries. If they attain unto this all-surpassing blessing, the people of each nation will pursue, with tranquillity and contentment, their own occupations, and the groanings and lamentations of most men would be silenced."

Some of the Baha'i teachings are:

- the abandonment of all forms of prejudice
- assurance to women of full equality of opportunity with men
- recognition of the unity and relativity of religious truth
- the elimination of extremes of poverty and wealth
- the realization of universal education
- the responsibility of each person to independently search for truth
- the establishment of a global commonwealth of nations
- recognition that true religion is in harmony with reason and the pursuit of scientific knowledge


http://info.bahai.org/bahaullah-basic-teachings.html

kids are open, they don't hold any biases considering skin color or race.
do they. and to think that the human race is inclined to kill for the sake of killing is a bit of an over statment, don't you think?

Right. But the point is that, just as the parants care about their children and try to guide them, so, does God, when humanity is in need of guidance.

edit:
Jarmo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
confucius 551-478 BC taught the golden rule
what did the age of enlightenment bring to the table...

Well, confucius was a greate man and he had many good teachings too.
Confucius renewed morals and ancient virtues, but his institution has been entirely destroyed.

 

[waitasec]

Maybe they knew. But appearantly there has been alot of local conflicts and national wars going on at that time.
Thus, it would be logical that they should have recieved at least a reminder from God who cares for His creatures.

and the injustice of slavery wasn't happening? or the subjugation of women?

The Baha'i teachings is more concerned with a way of life, as well as ways to solve problems in the society for this age. Baha'u'llah revealed 100 volumes of new scriptures for this age.

Some of the Baha'i teachings are:

- the abandonment of all forms of prejudice
- assurance to women of full equality of opportunity with men
- recognition of the unity and relativity of religious truth
- the elimination of extremes of poverty and wealth
- the realization of universal education
- the responsibility of each person to independently search for truth
- the establishment of a global commonwealth of nations
- recognition that true religion is in harmony with reason and the pursuit of scientific knowledge


Basic Teachings of Bahá'u'lláh

all these things are obvious. no one, no religion should be credited for pointing out common decency as if they were the ones that discovered it.
these things are innately understood in a civilized society.

Right. But the point is that, just as the parants care about their children and try to guide them, so, does God, when humanity is in need of guidance.

well he failed. he failed billions of people throughout history who lived a really awful existence in their short life.

Well, confucius was a greate man and he had many good teachings too.
Confucius renewed morals and ancient virtues, but his institution has been entirely destroyed.

the point is these morals were not originated by a deity....
the institution might have been destroyed not the ideals.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

and the injustice of slavery wasn't happening? or the subjugation of women?

The slavery was eliminated as a gradual process of revelations of God. Equality between men and women was also being established finally in this age.

Think of humanity as a one body, who has been growing from embryonic stages.
Each one of the religions has taught certain things. Just like a child that goes from grade 1, to grade 2, ...et.

Thus, the earlier religions were concerned to teach more basic and elementary things, just like Alphabet. the second grade teaches further... until it reached to what it is today.

all these things are obvious. no one, no religion should be credited for pointing out common decency as if they were the ones that discovered it.
these things are innately understood in a civilized society.

They are obvious today. But not in the 19th century. Who else was talking about unity of Mankind, or equality of Men and Women in the 19th century?
Years Before UN was established, Baha'u'llah talked about a world-wide government system to establish peace.

Thus, it can be argued that the source was the revelation of God. That is to say, the ideas were spread to the world.

the point is these morals were not originated by a deity....
the institution might have been destroyed not the ideals.

But it can be argued that, even great philosophers were inspired by the teachings of the prophets either directly or indirectly.

 

[waitasec]

The slavery was eliminated as a gradual process of revelations of God. Equality between men and women was also being established finally in this age.

Think of humanity as a one body, who has been growing from embryonic stages.
Each one of the religions has taught certain things. Just like a child that goes from grade 1, to grade 2, ...et.

Thus, the earlier religions were concerned to teach more basic and elementary things, just like Alphabet. the second grade teaches further... until it reached to what it is today.



They are obvious today. But not in the 19th century. Who else was talking about unity of Mankind, or equality of Men and Women in the 19th century?
Years Before UN was established, Baha'u'llah talked about a world-wide government system to establish peace.

Thus, it can be argued that the source was the revelation of God. That is to say, the ideas were spread to the world.





But it can be argued that, even great philosophers were inspired by the teachings of the prophets either directly or indirectly.

why did it have to be a gradual process?
in the 70's the entire country of sweden switched from driving on the left side of the street to the right side over night. i know this isn't a moral issue but it's an example of how certain things have to be established, and when talking about morality, if there were a god, it failed.

think of it as we are evolving primates....

 

[InvestigateTruth]

why did it have to be a gradual process?

Well, I think the reality is that, humanity evolved gradually. If we look at history, we see overall things evolved gradually.

Now, based on this truth, I think, there can be 2 arguments. Either, the prophets were the ultimate source of these revelations, or, it was human that simply figured it out all by himself with no guidance from God.

Guidance does not mean, an interaction with human's free will. Guidance is there, people have free will to use it, abuse it, or have nothing with it.

To me, it is really not all that strange to say, God inspired His prophets once in a while to teach others.


Everything is gradual:

The seed turns to tree gradually.
The tree bears fruits gradually.
Baby is developed in the womb gradually.

in the 70's the entire country of sweden switched from driving on the left side of the street to the right side over night. i know this isn't a moral issue but it's an example of how certain things have to be established,

it was like a mother that was pregnant, and the baby gradually grew, until the mother gave birth.

When you are saying "over night", it was the moment the baby was born, but it was as a result of a gradual evolvement.

and when talking about morality, if there were a god, it failed.

I am not sure what you mean by "if there were a god, it failed"
I am not saying the world is perfect. But the perfection is a gradual and never ending process. Perfection is relative for humanity with respect to time and age.

 

[waitasec]

Well, I think the reality is that, humanity evolved gradually. If we look at history, we see overall things evolved gradually.

Now, based on this truth, I think, there can be 2 arguments. Either, the prophets were the ultimate source of these revelations, or, it was human that simply figured it out all by himself with no guidance from God.
Guidance does not mean, an interaction with human's free will. Guidance is there, people have free will to use it, abuse it, or have nothing with it.
To me, it is really not all that strange to say, God inspired His prophets once in a while to teach others.
Everything is gradual:
The seed turns to tree gradually.
The tree bears fruits gradually.
Baby is developed in the womb gradually.

it was like a mother that was pregnant, and the baby gradually grew, until the mother gave birth.
When you are saying "over night", it was the moment the baby was born, but it was as a result of a gradual evolvement.
I am not sure what you mean by "if there were a god, it failed"
I am not saying the world is perfect. But the perfection is a gradual and never ending process. Perfection is relative for humanity with respect to time and age.

like i said, we are evolving...
if god is constant. if god is the standard by which we gain moral knowledge. then god failed those
who were victims of injustice done in the name of god...
just read the OT and it's full of these god ordained injustices
i don't understand why this is so hard to convey.
for me slavery has always been a wrong
the subjugation of women has always been a wrong
child abuse has always been wrong
rape has always been wrong.
why do you hold different standards for those of which were doing the work of god?
guess you have to in order for it to make sense

 

[InvestigateTruth]

like i said, we are evolving...

if god is constant. if god is the standard by which we gain moral knowledge. then god failed those
who were victims of injustice done in the name of god...

It seems to me that, you are thinking that, if there is a God, then why there has been so much injustice always.

The Baha'i view is based on spiritual life after death. Thus, the justice of God would be given in turn in life to come.

This doesn’t mean an eternal hell, in a physical sense.

The Baha'i view on life after death is briefly explained Here:

Heaven and hell: a Bahá'í view of life after death

just read the OT and it's full of these god ordained injustices

I see that OT has some passages that seems to be ordained injustices.
I also don't know really why.
I can give you some reasons based on my own personal understanding:

- The OT was written years after Moses, thus they may not be really exactly what was ordained. Other people for their own benefit could have added some things, or changed some things while it was written and put together.

- In old times, it would have been a lot difficult to write and collect a book. So, the time simply didn't allow perfect accuracy.

- The Bible contains some histories, which shows injustice, but it doesn't necessary mean they were ordained by God.

- There were a lot more disorders in the society of that time thus it may needed some harsher laws, to be able to establish justice.

 

[ellenjanuary]

Love, fear god, and keep his commandments. Toss the rest of it, it'll just confuse you.

 

[McBell]

Love, fear god, and keep his commandments. Toss the rest of it, it'll just confuse you.

Now if you could only get them to agree on what the commandments actually are....

 

[ellenjanuary]

Now if you could only get them to agree on what the commandments actually are....

Them? Ah, throw them in the pit.

 

[McBell]

Them? Ah, throw them in the pit.

yes them.
The theists.
Hells bells, Christians cannot even agree amongst themselves what the commandment(s) is/are.

 

[Beta]

yes them.
The theists.
Hells bells, Christians cannot even agree amongst themselves what the commandment(s) is/are.

Must say I don't normally agree with your view but you are so right in this.:yes:
Christianity as it is practiced has a lot to answer for - thousands of different opinions / denominations do not lead to unity but have a rather 'disagreeable' effect and are a poor example to all .:yes:

 

[waitasec]

It seems to me that, you are thinking that, if there is a God, then why there has been so much injustice always.

The Baha'i view is based on spiritual life after death. Thus, the justice of God would be given in turn in life to come.

but i'm not dead now, so i would rather not undermine the meaning of my life here and now...

I see that OT has some passages that seems to be ordained injustices.
I also don't know really why.
I can give you some reasons based on my own personal understanding:

i'm confused, you don't know why the OT has passages that ordain injustices, but you can give reasons based on personal understanding?

- The Bible contains some histories, which shows injustice, but it doesn't necessary mean they were ordained by God.

- There were a lot more disorders in the society of that time thus it may needed some harsher laws, to be able to establish justice.

with all due respect, that's not the issue, is it?

the topic of this thread is, why doesn't the bible say what it means?
it is full of contradictions that are not reconcilable. simple.
pretty much like the human race which is full of contradictions that are not reconcilable, how odd?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

but i'm not dead now, so i would rather not undermine the meaning of my life here and now...

I wouldn't undermine the meaning of my life here and now either.

But if you'd asked my openion and belief regarding justice, then, in my openion, things are not over here and now.

and if there is no life after death, then, it won't make a difference how life was after people dye, anyways. They won't remember anything.