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Why don't atheists change faiths very often?

Jesster

Friendly skeptic
Premium Member
I actually have changed faiths in a sense quite a few times. I started out as a Christian, then as an atheist explored many different religions for validity. I came very close to being a pagan for a while after making a lot of friends among the pagan faiths. I ultimately decided that there wasn't any reason to believe in anything I explored there, but I still gave it a solid run. I've actually been able to think and explore more freely as an atheist than I ever was when tied to one religion.
 

Muslim-UK

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Because Islam claims to be a revealed religion. How exactly would God reveal his religion to the people inside a universe if he never enters it himself?
Angels and Prophets.

No, it really doesn't show that.

... But if you really believe this, then you should be able to come up with some falsifiable tests for your god. There should be something where you could say "I know ____ was caused by God, so if we investigate and find some other cause, then we'll know that God (or at least God as I envision him) doesn't exist." Can you fill in that blank?

I know the hard problem of subjective consciousness can not be explained naturalistically.

I know your ability to think, reason and rationalise can also not be explained naturalistically.

Remember Atheists believe the mind is configured for survival, not to think about problems, not to ponder on what lies 1000 metres down in the Earth, or what life on Mars might be like. The very fact you are typing and 'thinking' proves this consciousness came from outside of the rules of nature.
 

Jesster

Friendly skeptic
Premium Member
Angels and Prophets.
Remember Atheists believe the mind is configured for survival, not to think about problems, not to ponder on what lies 1000 metres down in the Earth, or what life on Mars might be like. The very fact you are typing and 'thinking' proves this consciousness came from outside of the rules of nature.

This isn't really the case at all. Atheists don't have a set way of believing anything because atheism is not a belief system. I am in fact absolutely curious about the reality of the universe around me.
 

Muslim-UK

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
This isn't really the case at all. Atheists don't have a set way of believing anything because atheism is not a belief system. I am in fact absolutely curious about the reality of the universe around me.

Yes of course because your DNA has been hard coded to look for answers to the meaning of life by a Supernatural Power. After you cease to be, your soul returns to this Being and your unseen companions return to their realm. One of them goes to a nearby parallel world where He/She will live at least another 2-300 years. You said in another post, you had Pagan friends. Ask them to introduce you to a Pagan, who has the ability to contact Spirit guides, make sure they are genuine and then question that guide about life on Earth. They will be able to tell you about the person they were assigned to, and certain things about their lives. They will also talk a load of rubbish, but at least you would have verified they were originally here on Earth with someone.

Watch the vid in the following post:

Why the church of satan is not banned? Is satanism a religion?
 

Jesster

Friendly skeptic
Premium Member
Yes of course because your DNA has been hard coded to look for answers to the meaning of life by a Supernatural Power. After you cease to be, your soul returns to this Being and your unseen companions return to their realm. One of them goes to a nearby parallel world where He/She will live at least another 2-300 years. You said in another post, you had Pagan friends. Ask them to introduce you to a Pagan, who has the ability to contact Spirit guides, make sure they are genuine and then question that guide about life on Earth. They will be able to tell you about the person they were assigned to, and certain things about their lives. They will also talk a load of rubbish, but at least you would have verified they were originally here on Earth with someone.

Watch the vid in the following post:

Why the church of satan is not banned? Is satanism a religion?

That's quite a claim. It's fascinating, if true.

I personally know pagans who claim to have abilities you're talking about, among others, by the way. Don't assume I'm some newbie standing on the outside looking in. I'm quite connected to some high-standing people there. I'm invited to their group get-togethers every weekend and I am considered family. I remain unconvinced, though, and they're okay with that.
 

Muslim-UK

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
That's quite a claim. It's fascinating, if true.

I personally know pagans who claim to have abilities you're talking about, among others, by the way. Don't assume I'm some newbie standing on the outside looking in. I'm quite connected to some high-standing people there. I'm invited to their group get-togethers every weekend and I am considered family. I remain unconvinced, though, and they're okay with that.

If I'm not mistaken Pagans believe Hell does not exist and all souls go to a vast plain. In my religion, that plain is the inter-space between the First Heaven and Hell. Jews and Christians call it Sheol, a place you wait before going to Heaven, but the reality is somewhat different.
 

Jesster

Friendly skeptic
Premium Member
If I'm not mistaken Pagans believe Hell does not exist and all souls go to a vast plain. In my religion, that plain is the inter-space between the First Heaven and Hell. Jews and Christians call it Sheol, a place you wait before going to Heaven, but the reality is somewhat different.

Depends on the pagan. It's not one set religion. Norse paganism has different variations of afterlives, for example.
 

Kapalika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
As you touch on later in your post, the term "atheist" is generally reserved for people.

When I say "how the word is actually used," what I'm talking about is that when we consider how we use the word when speaking about adults who have put some thought into the issue of gods, we end up with a definition that also implies that babies are atheists.


"Atheist" doesn't indicate belief or disbelief. The only necessary qualification to be an atheist is that the person doesn't believe in any gods.

It really isn't that hard to manage. It's the exact same process we use to define words like "civilian" ("someone who isn't in the military"), "vegetarian" ("someone who doesn't eat meat"), "non-smoker" ("someone who doesn't smoke"), and many other terms.

For instance, some adult civilians may be civilians because they considered a career in the military and decided to do something else. Some may be civilians because they conscientiously object to military service. But when we hear a news report about, say, a battle that killed 50 civilians including 10 babies, nobody goes "hang on - a baby can't decide whether to serve in the military! They can't be civilians!" or "wait a minute - cats aren't in the military; how many of those civilians were cats?"


Except when we're talking about adult atheists, we apply the label in a way that just means "a person who doesn't believe in any gods." Even a baby is capable of doing that.


It's not that I want to; it's that I recognize that this is how the word is defined.


We wouldn't use the word, no. Just as if there were no military service, meat-eating, or smoking, we wouldn't have words to describe people who didn't do those things.


I'm saying that there's no single "concept of god." Instead, there are uncountably many different god-concepts, and no individual person is aware of all of them. It's impossible to simply reject all gods as a category, because the category is defined as a list of specific gods.

I'm insisting that we don't invent a special definition of the word "god" just to use in our definition of atheism. And in general use, there are no objective criteria for the definition of "god".

I've used this example before, but consider two divine messengers: Mercury/Hermes (a god) and the archangel Gabriel/Jibreel (explicitly not a god). What criteria could you possibly use to say why one is a god and the other isn't? Any objective criteria that you could come up with for what should and shouldn't be a god will either imply that the ancient Greeks and Romans were wrong to consider Mercury/Hermes a god (and maybe outright atheists, depending what your criteria are), or that modern Christians and Muslims are polytheists. Neither of these happens in real life; instead, our definition of "god" is generally based on whether people sincerely consider the thing in question to be a god... and that's it.

Tying this back to atheism: all of this means that rejecting every single god is practically impossible. It means we can't reject gods as a category, so to reject all gods, we would have to reject them one-by-one (or if we're lucky, specific pantheon by specific pantheon), which is beyond the capabilities of any person that the label "atheist" has ever been applied to.



Do you consider your cat (assuming he's male) a bachelor? After all, I assume he's not married, right?

I think it's bizarre when people invent problems with the normal definition of the word "atheist" but have no issue using words properly that are defined in a nearly-identical way.

... or maybe not so bizarre, since I think I see where it comes from. I see it flowing from stereotypes of atheists: to many people, atheists are nasty and bad, and babies are sweet and good, so to them, there's a conceptual mismatch when a baby is called an atheist.

But think about the process that an adult, intelligent atheist who has considered the issue of gods has gone through:

- he's probably considered arguments for god and rejected them... but rejecting an argument isn't the same as rejecting the conclusion of an argument. Intelligent people realize that true conclusions can be argued using crappy arguments, so the crappiness of an argument isn't an indication that the conclusion is necessarily false.

- he's probably encountered arguments that he couldn't even consider: maybe some were expressed badly, maybe they were in languages he didn't speak, but for whatever reason, he's probably aware that arguments for gods exist that he hasn't explicitly rejected as false.

- he's probably identified a few gods that are unfalsifiable... which means that he can't rationally reject them. All he can do is note that there's no justification for accepting them.

- he hasn't come close to even hearing about every god, so he certainly can't have rejected gods in general.

- he might think that people who believe in the gods he's considered are unjustified or foolish, but opinions about believers in gods are not beliefs about gods.

All in all, the criteria we use to identify an adult as an atheist also imply that babies are atheists. Personally, I don't really care in and of itself whether babies are atheists, but when people argue for a definition that implies babies aren't atheists, this implies they're arguing for a different definition than the one we use for adults.

At best, it's because they haven't thought about the issue too deeply (e.g. they only define "god" in terms of the specific god they believe in, and rejection of that god is something that a person could potentially be capable of); at worst, they're trying to paint atheists as unreasonable (e.g. trying to portray atheists as closed-minded by implying that they've prejudicially rejected concepts before they even heard them).

So that's why the question of whether babies are atheists matters.

While I see some valid points here, my main point is that to me it doesn't make sense to label an infant anything indicating belief or lack of.

I don't see any literal or practical difference between "lack of belief" or "disbelief". To me they mean the same thing and any argument to the contrary seems to be fighting against no more than connotation. Sure, "disbelieve" gives a connotation of "rejecting an argument' but connotation is based on perspective not actual meaning. You are right when you say it makes sense in light of stereotypes, because it's stereotypes that shape people's connotations.

But be assured I and many others don't have that connotation to the word disbelieve. I'm closer to an atheist than a theist in most ways and I regularly watch atheist debates or discussions ect, this guy currently being my favorite for taking it to a true philosophical level I haven't seen other youtubers do before:

CosmicSkeptic

Also you asked if I would consider my cat a civilian or bachelor, ect. All the examples you gave were of things that you can objectively verify without someone telling you and don't indicate belief. A person either is or is not in the military, either is or is not married, or does or does not eat meat. Belief isn't something you can verify in the same way without asking the person. I wouldn't consider my cat a bachelor or a civilian. An infant is legally a civilian, but I can't know what they do or do not believe unless they tell me, which they can't since they are not possible to have that concept or can do anything.

My issue with that position is newborn infants do not even have a sense of self awareness. If one is literally not aware of the existence of themselves, or the permanence of objects outside of their vision, how can it fairly be said they are either atheist or theist or agnostic or anything other than a human who has yet to have their "operating system fully activated?"

Exactly. It seems to me people just want to label their kids/infants/whatever their own belief or lack of. "I was born Catholic" I've heard people said... how is that different from "Babies are born atheist?" It's like people think it really matters or means anything. At least the former indicates that they were raised that way and I would of thought the latter was poking fun at the former as a reasoning. but it seems like people are taking it too seriously.
 

Underhill

Well-Known Member
How does God being outside of the 7 Heavens prove Islam to be false?

If you look at the origins of the Universe, the fine tuning, how life forms, complexity and diversity, the fact you have the ability to use reason and logic, ALL of this is observable and shows a Designer, Creator, all knowing Super Being is ultimately responsible for all that we see.

Why does it show that?

It shows we have the ability to use logic and reason. Nothing more.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Angels and Prophets.
Angels I kinda get, if you're saying that they can go in and out of the universe. How would "prophets" work with them being constrained to the universe and God being completely outside it?

I know the hard problem of subjective consciousness can not be explained naturalistically.
"Can't be" or "hasn't been"?

It seems to me that supernatural explanations haven't done any better.

I know your ability to think, reason and rationalise can also not be explained naturalistically.

Remember Atheists believe the mind is configured for survival, not to think about problems, not to ponder on what lies 1000 metres down in the Earth, or what life on Mars might be like. The very fact you are typing and 'thinking' proves this consciousness came from outside of the rules of nature.
You have a few unjustified leaps in your reasoning there. I also think it's interesting that your position assumes there's no advantage in having an accurate understanding of the universe.

Anyhow, I don't think you understood what I was asking for. How about something we can actually test right now? Something where it's clear that if God exists, it will be one way and if God doesn't exist, it will be some other way.

As an analogous example: say we have an opaque bottle filled with 1 L of an unknown liquid at room temperature. We want to decide whether it's filled with water, but we can't open the bottle. One way we could check is to weigh it: if it's filled with water, its mass will be 1 kg plus the (unknown but positive) mass of the bottle. This means that if the bottle weighs less than 1 kg, we can be sure that the liquid in the bottle is not water.

That's the sort of thing I'm talking about: a test of something specific we can actually observe that is clearly based on the qualities of your god that make your god different from other things.
 

Muslim-UK

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Why does it show that?

It shows we have the ability to use logic and reason. Nothing more.
Hi,
From a Atheistic perspective logic and reasoning are impossible to explain. If as they maintain our purpose is survival and reproduction, then where does the desire to learn, evaluate, question, consciousnesses, reasoning, reflecting etc come from?

Science can dissect a brain, examine the neurons, weigh and measure it, but not so with consciousnesses, as it comes from outside the natural world. This what sets us apart from the animal Kingdom.

And We have certainly honored the children of Adam and carried them on the land and sea and provided for them of the good things and preferred them over much of what We have created, with [definite] preference. Qur'an 17:70

Do you not see that Allah has made subject to you whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth and amply bestowed upon you His favors, [both] apparent and unapparent? But of the people is he who disputes about Allah without knowledge or guidance or an enlightening Book [from Him]. Qur'an 31:20

Behold! in the creation of the heavens and the earth; in the alternation of the night and the day; in the sailing of the ships through the ocean for the profit of mankind; in the rain which Allah Sends down from the skies, and the life which He gives therewith to an earth that is dead; in the beasts of all kinds that He scatters through the earth; in the change of the winds, and the clouds which they Trail like their slaves between the sky and the earth;- (Here) indeed are Signs for a people that are wise. Qur'an 2:164

We have revealed for you (O men!) a book in which is a Message for you: will ye not then understand? Qur'an 21:10

Is it not a warning to such men (to call to mind) how many generations before them We destroyed, in whose haunts they (now) move? Verily, in this are Signs for men endued with understanding. Qur'an 20:128

The parable of those who reject Faith is as if one were to shout Like a goat-herd, to things that listen to nothing but calls and cries: Deaf, dumb, and blind, they are void of wisdom. Qur'an 2:171

For the worst of beasts in the sight of Allah are the deaf and the dumb,- those who understand not. Qur'an 8:22

They will further say: "Had we but listened or used our intelligence, we should not (now) be among the Companions of the Blazing Fire!" Qur'an 67:10

Allah has prepared for them a severe Punishment (in the Hereafter). Therefore fear Allah, O ye men of understanding - who have believed!- for Allah hath indeed sent down to you a Message,- Qur'an 65:10

As you can see, using the gifts of intelligence and understanding are paramount to our success both in this life and the hereafter.
 

Muslim-UK

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Angels I kinda get, if you're saying that they can go in and out of the universe. How would "prophets" work with them being constrained to the universe and God being completely outside it?
Angels come to Earth and relay the message from GOD. Moses pbuh is said to have spoken to God directly, but was forbidden to look at Him, as he would have died on the spot. Too much for the soul to handle.

"Can't be" or "hasn't been"?
Read studies done by experts in the field. Unlikely that anything beyond the basic understanding of conscious awareness will be explained in the next 100 years.

It seems to me that supernatural explanations haven't done any better.
God has given us intellect to help us reason, accept that He exists and worship Him alone to benefit ourselves.

You have a few unjustified leaps in your reasoning there. I also think it's interesting that your position assumes there's no advantage in having an accurate understanding of the universe.
From a Darwinian evolution point, we are adapted to survive and reproduce. Nothing more. How does wanting to understand the Universe aid our need to survive?

The only time monkeys went into space was because man put them on a rocket. They would be happy to swing from trees and look for food as they've been doing for Thousands of years. Clearly something outside of nature had a different plan for us.

Anyhow, I don't think you understood what I was asking for. How about something we can actually test right now? Something where it's clear that if God exists, it will be one way and if God doesn't exist, it will be some other way.
No such test to satisfy your question exists. The very fact this fine tuned Universe exists to sustain life is a clear sign. The complexity of a single self replicating cell is another clear sign. There are many many signs for people of understanding. There are many signs in His final revelation to mankind too.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I know the hard problem of subjective consciousness can not be explained naturalistically.

Although not yet explained, the existence of consciousness can only be explained naturalistically or not at all. There can be no supernatural or any other kind of creator of consciousness. Consciousness could not have been created by a conscious agent. The supernatural agent would need to be conscious already, and therefore, not the origin of consciousness.

Yet again, we still have no need for a god hypothesis.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
From a Atheistic perspective logic and reasoning are impossible to explain.

Nothing is explained by saying "God did it" when you have no god to present and no explanatory mechanism. It is just as (non)explanatory to say that Norman did it or that it did it itself.

What we don't know yet is never an argument for a god. It's an argument to keep studying nature for answers.

If as they maintain our purpose is survival and reproduction, then where does the desire to learn, evaluate, question, consciousnesses, reasoning, reflecting etc come from?

Evolution. Reason is an adaptation conferring survival advantage on the reasoner who does it well.

Science can dissect a brain, examine the neurons, weigh and measure it, but not so with consciousnesses, as it comes from outside the natural world. This what sets us apart from the animal Kingdom.

My dogs are conscious when awake.

You seem to be trying very hard to find a role that only a god could fill. We have no such need at this time. Gods have their place on the candidate hypotheses lists for the origin of the universe and the origin of the first life in it, but not only can they not push the naturalistic alternatives off of those lists, they can't rise above the bottom of the list due to their unparsimonious nature. They invoke the existence of the most complex thing imaginable - that is, the entity least likely to exist undesigned and uncreated - to explain the existence of things that look too complex to some people to exist undesigned and uncreated. That's a flawed argument.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Exactly. It seems to me people just want to label their kids/infants/whatever their own belief or lack of. "I was born Catholic" I've heard people said... how is that different from "Babies are born atheist?" It's like people think it really matters or means anything. At least the former indicates that they were raised that way and I would of thought the latter was poking fun at the former as a reasoning. but it seems like people are taking it too seriously.
Yup. It's like when I was dedicated as a baby. I had nothing to do with it, made no decisions about it, and don't even remember it. However, I couldn't actually be a Baptist until I made the conscious effort to conform to and uphold that ideology as a toddler and young child.
What definition of "atheist" are you using that doesn't imply babies are atheists?
I hesitate to call a baby born in a certain country a member of that country. In a hypothetical situation, a baby born in America could be taken to England, raised British, be considered British, and remain oblivious to American heritage. A baby really can't even tell you their gender identity or sexual orientation, they don't know that something outside of their vision exist for awhile, they don't know of their own existence for awhile. How can it be said they are either when they don't even realize they exist?
 

Underhill

Well-Known Member
Hi,
From a Atheistic perspective logic and reasoning are impossible to explain. If as they maintain our purpose is survival and reproduction, then where does the desire to learn, evaluate, question, consciousnesses, reasoning, reflecting etc come from?

Science can dissect a brain, examine the neurons, weigh and measure it, but not so with consciousnesses, as it comes from outside the natural world. This what sets us apart from the animal Kingdom.

And We have certainly honored the children of Adam and carried them on the land and sea and provided for them of the good things and preferred them over much of what We have created, with [definite] preference. Qur'an 17:70

Do you not see that Allah has made subject to you whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth and amply bestowed upon you His favors, [both] apparent and unapparent? But of the people is he who disputes about Allah without knowledge or guidance or an enlightening Book [from Him]. Qur'an 31:20

Behold! in the creation of the heavens and the earth; in the alternation of the night and the day; in the sailing of the ships through the ocean for the profit of mankind; in the rain which Allah Sends down from the skies, and the life which He gives therewith to an earth that is dead; in the beasts of all kinds that He scatters through the earth; in the change of the winds, and the clouds which they Trail like their slaves between the sky and the earth;- (Here) indeed are Signs for a people that are wise. Qur'an 2:164

We have revealed for you (O men!) a book in which is a Message for you: will ye not then understand? Qur'an 21:10

Is it not a warning to such men (to call to mind) how many generations before them We destroyed, in whose haunts they (now) move? Verily, in this are Signs for men endued with understanding. Qur'an 20:128

The parable of those who reject Faith is as if one were to shout Like a goat-herd, to things that listen to nothing but calls and cries: Deaf, dumb, and blind, they are void of wisdom. Qur'an 2:171

For the worst of beasts in the sight of Allah are the deaf and the dumb,- those who understand not. Qur'an 8:22

They will further say: "Had we but listened or used our intelligence, we should not (now) be among the Companions of the Blazing Fire!" Qur'an 67:10

Allah has prepared for them a severe Punishment (in the Hereafter). Therefore fear Allah, O ye men of understanding - who have believed!- for Allah hath indeed sent down to you a Message,- Qur'an 65:10

As you can see, using the gifts of intelligence and understanding are paramount to our success both in this life and the hereafter.

Intelligence and understanding are important but the notion that we cannot explain it is just wrong. In fact it is one of the easiest things to explain as part of our evolutionary development.

I get it. You believe what the Quran tells you. However, that does not automatically make it all reasonable and logical. The Quran tells you that we atheist are devoid of wisdom. But the reality is that wisdom comes from understanding, not from reading an old book. Understanding comes from educating oneself to the realities of the world around us. An ancient book can have educational value in some ways, but understanding science is not one of them.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Hi,
From a Atheistic perspective logic and reasoning are impossible to explain. If as they maintain our purpose is survival and reproduction, then where does the desire to learn, evaluate, question, consciousnesses, reasoning, reflecting etc come from?

That is a false problem. Logic and reasoning no more need an explanation than any other emerging properties of complex systems do.

The expectation that there "must" be a "cause" or "explanation" for such properties is a strong component of some forms of theism, notably in Islaam and Christianity.... but it does not really make any logical sense.

Things are as they are. They do not always conform to human attachment to so-called explanations in very few words.

And frankly, "God wanted it so" is not even a weak explanation. Rather, it is a refusal to seek explanations.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
God has given us intellect to help us reason, accept that He exists and worship Him alone to benefit ourselves.

That's a religious belief - an unsupported claim. Even if true, I have no reason to believe it or way to confirm it at this time, and neither do you.

Also, have you noticed the negative correlation between acquiring reasoning skills and religious belief? More education and greater critical thinking skills means less faith based thinking and belief in gods. The church understands this as well, which is why they are so intent on getting into the public schools to have access to the children not being indoctrinated in churches or by their parents.

It's also why so many fundamentalists don't want to allow their children into public schools. Such parents simply don't want their indoctrination questioned before it has a chance to cement itself into the child.

From a Darwinian evolution point, we are adapted to survive and reproduce. Nothing more. How does wanting to understand the Universe aid our need to survive?

Humanity is in a post-Darwinian evolutionary mode now - cultural evolution. Though we are still evolving biologically, meaning in unplanned ways governed by mutation and natural selection, we are also engaging in artificial selection and transforming ourselves and our lives at an accelerated pace because of it. Unlike the blind, undirected forces of nature, we now create things that have nothing to do with survival or reproduction. We create things for our comfort (air conditioning) or amusement (video games), for example, or to make our lives easier (electric motors).

Wanting to understand the universe is just a natural extension of our curiosity and instinct to explore. I see it my dogs do the same when we have a play day at the home of another dog owner, and they explore every nook and cranny of the home and yard surrounding it. Man is still doing that but with an enhanced understanding and on a cosmic scale now.

The very fact this fine tuned Universe exists to sustain life is a clear sign.

This is yet another argument that religious apologists like to make, but like your consciousness argument and your reasoning argument - no god could have created reason for the same reason that it couldn't have created consciousness since both would necessarily already exist for a god to produce more of either - the fine tuning argument is an argument against a god running our universe. What would a god capable of willing the planets to orbit around their stars need with gravity, laws of universal gravitation, or a gravitational constant? That's what a godless universe needs to operate unsupervised.

I like to use the example of a juggler who wants to replace himself with a juggling robot. When he was doing the juggling himself, he didn't need to be aware of how fast his hands were moving in feet per second, exactly what path they traced, how much force to throw a ball with in dynes, etc.. It's all intuitive.

But to construct such a robot, he needs rules for its motions so that the robotic juggler does what he did without rules. If he wants to set his robot juggling, walk away from it, and come back in the future to find it still juggling, he'll need to fine tune the process explicitly as a set of instructions built into the mechanics of the robot or programmed into its software.

You might ask where these laws of nature come from, but you'll get the same answer. Even if our laws are the creation of an intelligent designer, there would necessarily need to be laws that transcend that creator and precede it logically - laws that allow it to exist and maintain structural integrity without which it would dissipate and fade from existence.

The complexity of a single self replicating cell is another clear sign.

It's a sign of complexity being possible, not of that complexity requiring an intelligent designer, especially one infinitely more complex that the object that it is said to be need for to explain. If you can accept the possibility of a god existing undesigned and uncreated, you have no argument against the person willing to believe the same might be possible about a cell.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
And frankly, "God wanted it so" is not even a weak explanation. Rather, it is a refusal to seek explanations.

Agreed. "God did it" is a thought-terminating cliché.

Isn't the proclamation that a cell is to complex to have assembled itself a call to cease looking for answers - to end abiogenesis research?

Isn't the claim that God god created the kinds a call to throw out the theory of evolution, one which unifies a mountain of observations, make prediction about what can and cannot be found that have never been falsified, offers a mechanism for the production of the living and extinct forms we find, and has practical applications that have improved the human condition and replace it with an unsupported claim that has no explanatory mechanism, makes no predictions, and cannot be used for anything helpful. They would have us cease studying altogether:
  • "People gave ear to an upstart astrologer [Copernicus] who strove to show that the earth revolves, not the heavens or the firmament, the sun and the moon. Whoever wishes to appear clever must devise some new system, which of all systems is of course the very best. This fool wishes to reverse the entire science of astronomy; but sacred scripture tells us [Joshua 10:13] that Joshua commanded the sun to stand still, and not the earth." - Martin Luther
  • "Since God has spoken to us it is no longer necessary for us to think." - St Augustine
  • "If God had intended man to fly, He would have given him wings instead of arms" - anon
 
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