Why Dont Christians Accept the Book of Mormon as Valid?

[tomspug]

please refer to this thread for that debate.
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...chrisitans-trinity-vs-godhead-justice-vs.html



the purpose of the Atonement. (mentioned almost 40 times in the Book of Mormon, when in the Bible the word Atonement appears once).

The fall of Adam being nessicary, the proper structure of Christ's church. The fact that none of Christ's leaders were paid to be clergy, they were called, they had thier own jobs, Even Jesus Christ had his own job, he was a carpenter. he worked for a living, he didn't ask anyone for money so he could quit his job and be a minister.

The Nature of God, and the purpose of the Holy Ghost.

The nature and purpose of Baptism and infant baptisms being an "evil abomination"

The degrees of glory in heaven,

The reality of Satan and his power and works.

want me to keep going?

Great! Thank you. This is all I've been asking for for the past three pages.

OK, so 'degrees of glory'. That is something that I haven't heard in the Bible. Why is it important for us to be glorified, exactly? I thought everything we did was glory to God, not ourselves.

What is the reality of Satan that is not in the Bible?

If the fall of Adam was 'necessary', then how is sin actually bad? Wouldn't it have been greater if the fall had never happened and the world could have been Eden?

 

[tomspug]

you have it backwards Christ's Blood frees us from sin. Christ's Ressurection freed us from the bonds of death. he took up his own body so that we way live again.


also....according to you.... if you repent of a sin, then you can go do it again but you don't have to worry because you already said Sorry?

Explain to me how freedom from sin and freedom from death are different? When Adam sinned, he was cursed with death. They are one and the same.

And to answer your second question, yes.
If you want an explanation, read Romans. Almost the entire thing is about the question you just asked, so I would suggest grabbing a study guide and reading it.

 

[madhatter85]

Great! Thank you. This is all I've been asking for for the past three pages.

OK, so 'degrees of glory'. That is something that I haven't heard in the Bible. Why is it important for us to be glorified, exactly? I thought everything we did was glory to God, not ourselves.

What is the reality of Satan that is not in the Bible?

If the fall of Adam was 'necessary', then how is sin actually bad? Wouldn't it have been greater if the fall had never happened and the world could have been Eden?

these are all great questions. but those are for separate debates, feel free to make new threads for those questions and we can discuss them there.

 

[madhatter85]

Explain to me how freedom from sin and freedom from death are different? When Adam sinned, he was cursed with death. They are one and the same.

And to answer your second question, yes.
If you want an explanation, read Romans. Almost the entire thing is about the question you just asked, so I would suggest grabbing a study guide and reading it.

because all are freed from death. all will be ressurected nomatter if they repented or not. that is when the judgement will come and those who deserve "outer darkness" or "hell" will be cast there.

there is another Big difference between your thinking and LDS teaching about repentance. Repentance is a continuing thing for us. repentance is not just sorrow, but a change in attitude and action. Example.....saying your sorry for cheating on your wife when you keep doing it does not constitute repentance.....

 

[tomspug]

because all are freed from death. all will be ressurected nomatter if they repented or not. that is when the judgement will come and those who deserve "outer darkness" or "hell" will be cast there.

And where in the Bible does it say that repentance is not important? Why did Jesus say "repent, for the kingdom is near"?

Also, I thought this topic was about the Book of Mormon. I'm pretty sure I'm on topic when I ask questions about the book of Mormon. So there is no need to make a new topic. Please, by all means, address my questions.

 

[madhatter85]

And where in the Bible does it say that repentance is not important? Why did Jesus say "repent, for the kingdom is near"?

Also, I thought this topic was about the Book of Mormon. I'm pretty sure I'm on topic when I ask questions about the book of Mormon. So there is no need to make a new topic. Please, by all means, address my questions.

when did i say Repentance is not important?

It is indeed extremely important, Look at our Articles of Faith. the 4th one is "the believe the first principlas and Ordinaces of the gospel are: First, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Second, Repentance......

 

[tomspug]

Faith in Jesus Christ IS REPENTANCE. They are not separate. Jesus's life was defined by his death and resurrection.

Also, as far as the LDS's stance on resurrection, if you think there is a difference in our interpretations, then there is a difference between the LDS church's opinion and Paul's. If you don't believe me, read Romans. It's good stuff, but kind of heavy.

 

[Katzpur]

Tomspug,

These are all good questions, but would really be better addressed in separate threads. Why don't you start a thread for each of them and we can discuss them in more detail.

 

[nutshell]

Woah, woah, woah. Speak to Paul about that claim.



What Paul is explaining to the Romans is that the resurrection frees us from sin. It is the atonement of Christ's blood which frees us. All we have to do is accept this and we are free from death forever.

Repentance is a one-time thing, guys. That's what the Bible explains. Therefore, the resurrection DOES remove sin in the same way that a burnt offering in the Old Testament removed sin, but because Christ ROSE FROM THE DEAD, death itself was defeated.

I completely agree with what Paul is saying to the Romans, but he didn't call it the resurrection and neither do we.

 

[Katzpur]

Thank you Katz, that all makes sense and it does explain why the BoM might be interesting to Christians, but I don't think it really makes a case that Christians need the BoM. After all, we're already convinced that " ...Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations..." I've not read it and I probably should, and am more interested in doing so the way you've presented your case here.

I'm sure that most Christians (including most LDS) don't "need" the Book of Mormon to convince them that Jesus is the Christ, but I think of it as an additional witness. If I were on trial, I would want as many witnesses as possible testifying on my behalf, and if one witness could add something in my defense that would help clear my name, I would want to make sure he got a chance to testify. Obviously, Christ is not on trial and has not been charged with a crime. But our position is that the more one knows about God's Plan of Salvation, the better.

However, it seems from what you've said that it is the revelation to Joseph Smith that really adds new beliefs to the LDS religion. To answer the question you asked tomspug (if that's OK), I think that LDS interprets the Bible differently than traditional Christianity. Christianity itself adds new nuances and meanings to the OT writings (which IMO does not at all invalidate Jewish interpretations of the same scriptures), and the Baha'i Faith also says that it is consistent with the Bible, and it is if one interprets things vastly differently than either traditional Christianity or LDS. Same with the JWs, although I think they also actaully change some of the text of the Bible in the NWT.

You're right, that most of the "new" doctrines were given to Joseph Smith as he asked questions of the Lord about specific biblical doctrines that didn't seem entirely clear to him. You need to be aware, though, that we believe that well over 99% of our doctrines aren't really "new" at all, but were part of the Church Jesus Christ established. We believe that they were lost over time (mostly within the first two or three hundred years after Christ's death) and were simply restored by Joseph Smith. That's why we can find a few references to most of them in the Bible, even though they're not elaborated upon. I'd give you some examples, but as I said to Tomspug, they would best be the topic of another thread. Clearly, interpretation is a big part of the issue, but that would be the case even if Mormonism was not a part of the equation. Catholics, for instance, find biblical support for the doctrine of Transsubstantiation, whereas most Protestants think it's a huge stretch.

 

[nutshell]

Great! Thank you. This is all I've been asking for for the past three pages.

OK, so 'degrees of glory'. That is something that I haven't heard in the Bible. Why is it important for us to be glorified, exactly? I thought everything we did was glory to God, not ourselves.

What is the reality of Satan that is not in the Bible?

If the fall of Adam was 'necessary', then how is sin actually bad? Wouldn't it have been greater if the fall had never happened and the world could have been Eden?

Degrees of glory is in the Bible. Everything we do is glory to God.

Bible teaches of Satan.

 

[FFH]

The Qu'ran affirms the Bible and was given through the hands of his prophet in this, the final dispensation of the fullness of times.


See the problem?

No, the Qu'ran does not totally affirm the Bible, there are many contradictions.

"The philosophies of men mingled with scripture". The Qu'ran fits that saying perfectly.

Satan is an idiot...

The Book of Mormon does not contradict the Joseph Smith translation/inspired/restored Bible, but it does contradict the King James in some places since it has been altered. The King James is a good 90 percent intact, with a good 10 percent of it having errors which contradict the Book of Mormon.

It's interesting, because there are scriptures quoted in the Book of Mormon, from the Bible, along with the corrections to the King James.

Tomspug, I'll get these scriptures together, been meaning to do so for quite some time.

So in that sense you are correct Tomspug and I'll try to fulfill your request in a new thread I'll start later tonight perhaps concerning this matter.

 

[FFH]

You could make the same argument for any non-Biblical text. In order for that sort of claim to be valid, you have to explain WHY the Book of Mormon is an improvement or elaboration of the Bible. It's not enough to just say that it is.

I think it would be more helpful to be more specific in your explanations in this way. You are making the argument that the Bible is 'something' but not saying what parts. You are saying that the Book of Mormon is 'something' but not saying what makes it that.

It would improve your arguments from being simple contradictions.

Will respond to this for sure by starting another thread later if not tonight this Sunday.

Been meaning to do this for quite some time.

 

[nutshell]

No, the Qu'ran does not totally affirm the Bible, there are many contradictions.

"The philosophies of men mingled with scripture". The Qu'ran fits that saying perfectly.

Satan is an idiot...

The Book of Mormon does not contradict the Joseph Smith translation/inspired/restored Bible, but it does contradict the King James in some places since it has been altered. The King James is a good 90 percent intact, with a good 10 percent of it having errors which contradict the Book of Mormon.

It's interesting, because there are scriptures quoted from the Bible with the corrections to the King James.

Tomspug, I'll get these scriptures together, been meaning to do so for quite some time.

So in that sense you are correct Tomspug and I'll try to fulfill your request in a new thread I'll start later tonight perhaps concerning this matter.

I guess I need to correct that post because I wasn't being literal. I was demonstrating that the argument could be made and from the POV of the claimant, they are accurate.

 

[Captain Civic]

there is another Big difference between your thinking and LDS teaching about repentance. Repentance is a continuing thing for us. repentance is not just sorrow, but a change in attitude and action. Example.....saying your sorry for cheating on your wife when you keep doing it does not constitute repentance.....

What about alcohol addiction? You can be sorry and do your best to change it, but that doesn't neccessarily mean you'll defeat it the moment you repent of it.

 

[athanasius]

Thank you, Luna!

Well, let me put it this way. I can't think of a single solitary verse in the Book of Mormon that contradicts a single solitary verse in the Bible. The Book of Mormon does clarify or shed new light on doctrines that are alluded to but not elaborated upon in the Bible. Some people assume that these teachings are an attempt to change the teachings of the Bible when, in fact, they're not at all. I suppose you might compare the Bible to a high school biology textbook and the Book of Mormon to a college biology textbook. Of course that would imply that the Book of Mormon is more difficult to read and understand, which I don't believe to be the case. You'll agree, though, that a college biology textbook covers the same material in greater depth and, while it does not contradict the high school textbook, it contains additional material which is useful to know.

As to why one needs the Book of Mormon, the Book of Mormon itself states that its purpose is "...to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations..." We have in the Bible four gospel accounts of Jesus' life and ministry. Each of them contains some repetetive material and some material that is entirely unique. The Book of Mormon is much like a fifth gospel account, except that it testifies of Jesus' ministry to another group of the house of Israel who were living on the other side of the world. It's simply another witness to the divinity of Jesus Christ and His role as Savior of the World. Its purpose is to provide another record to support the one provided by the Bible.

Most of the "new" teachings of Mormonism are actually found not in the Book of Mormon but in the Doctrine and Covenants. This is not a translated record of an ancient text, but God's revelations to Joseph Smith (primarily). It restores doctrines that we believe to have been lost from Christianity during the early centuries of its existance. Among them would be the concept of a pre-mortal existance of all human beings and a Heaven that is divided into three major "degrees of glory." We believe these teachings to be briefly mentioned in the Bible, but further developed through latter-day revelation to living prophets.

Now I am curious is there a way to get a copy of the D and C so I can see these lost doctrines that we are talking about ? Will the LDS send me a copy of that book like the book of Mormon? It sounds interesting. Is there something called the Pearl of Great price too or did I hear wrong? If so what is that one? Can I get a copy of that one too? How does one attain copies? Should ask a local elder? I have been to a LDS Church before or is that something that they may not give me. I am just curious?

 

[Katzpur]

Now I am curious is there a way to get a copy of the D and C so I can see these lost doctrines that we are talking about ? Will the LDS send me a copy of that book like the book of Mormon? It sounds interesting. Is there something called the Pearl of Great price too or did I hear wrong? If so what is that one? Can I get a copy of that one too? How does one attain copies? Should ask a local elder? I have been to a LDS Church before or is that something that they may not give me. I am just curious?

You could get copies of all the LDS scriptures at DeseretBook.com. As a rule, they're pretty cheap. The Church tries to sell them pretty much at cost.

 

[Katzpur]

What about alcohol addiction? You can be sorry and do your best to change it, but that doesn't neccessarily mean you'll defeat it the moment you repent of it.

I think the important thing is what's in our hearts. God knows when we're sincerely remorseful for a wrongdoing of any kind, and He knows when we're trying to keep the promises we make to Him when we repent. He doesn't expect us to be perfect overnight, but He does expect us to be putting forth some effort.

 

[athanasius]

You could get copies of all the LDS scriptures at DeseretBook.com. As a rule, they're pretty cheap. The Church tries to sell them pretty much at cost.

Thank you Katz. And God bless you! If figure the least I could do is try to read and educate myself more. I hope to have the D and C by late January. Thanks once again!

Wow they are exrtremely affordable! I can get a combination copy of all three books for only 6 bucks on this site. That is awesome!

 

[FFH]

Here's an example of how the Book of Mormon, the King James and the Joseph Smith Inspired version DO NOT contradict each other, but there are verses that are not identicle to the King James because of the King James has been altered by man, the Book of Mormon corrects these mistakes, as does the Joseph Smith inspired version. I'll try and pull up an example, but for now here's a great verse to compare the three versions, which are identicle, the Joseph Smith inspired version only adding an extra sentence.

Matthew 6:29 (Joseph Smith inspired version of the Bible)
Behold the fowls of the air, for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they? How much more will he not feed you?

Matthew 6: 26 (King James)
Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?

3 Nephi 13: 26 (Book of Mormon)
Behold the fowls of the air, for they sow not, neither do they reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?