Why Dont Christians Accept the Book of Mormon as Valid?

[rasor]

because I read the Book of Mormon, prayed about it and recieved a witness from the Holy ghost that it's true.

You mean the holy ghost actually appeared physically in front of you ?

 

[Sola'lor]

You mean the holy ghost actually appeared physically in front of you ?

No. He bore witness by what is sometimes described as the 'still small voice' or 'burning in the bosom.' THe way we have been told the Holy Ghost will bear witness to people.

 

[rasor]

No. He bore witness by what is sometimes described as the 'still small voice' or 'burning in the bosom.' THe way we have been told the Holy Ghost will bear witness to people.

I don't understand !

 

[Katzpur]

I don't understand !

Obviously.

 

[rasor]

Obviously.

oh well,that clears that up.

 

[Katzpur]

oh well,that clears that up.

There are some things in life that must be experienced to be understood. When a person believes that such things don't even exist, the likelihood of his ever getting to the point where he can understand them is pretty remote.

 

[Sola'lor]

It's like trying to explain what salt tastes like.

 

[rasor]

There are some things in life that must be experienced to be understood. When a person believes that such things don't even exist, the likelihood of his ever getting to the point where he can understand them is pretty remote.

Its not a case of me believing things don't exist but more a case of lack of verifiable evidence that things exist.

 

[Starfish]

How do you lds's know that Jo Smith wasn't just another con man like Ron L Hubbard ?

You know an apple tree is not a pear tree, because it produces apples.

Having been LDS all my life, and have lived it's teachings I have learned over and over and over--it works. Those are my "apples". It has never failed me. All the promises I hoped for, I have. It's like a diet. You try it, it tastes good, your weight improves, you feel healthy--you see others on other diets who don't seem as healthy--it makes you want to stay with your diet. And it makes you want your children to use this diet. And to tell your neighbors about it.

All that, plus the Holy Ghost has confirmed the truthfulness to me many, many times.

 

[Katzpur]

Its not a case of me believing things don't exist but more a case of lack of verifiable evidence that things exist.

=How do you lds's know that Jo Smith wasn't just another con man like Ron L Hubbard?

Because they're is no verifiable evidence that he was.

 

[Katzpur]

Man, you guys really have the traditional christians freaked out, huh.

Yeah, well it's kind of like my signature says.

I looked for parallels between your catholic distortion and an equivalent Mormon distortion. I suppose the best example (imho) was the bit about how Mormons have endless sex in heaven. You guys don't come right out and say that you will be having endless sex in heaven; I think you are probably much more discrete about that by referencing the creation of worlds without end. Either that, or you really don't have much information on how these things work and sex (to make spirit babies) is beside the point because you are just trying to get to the Celestial Kingdom at this point. Hell if I know, it's all speculation (becoming a God yourself and creating a world per your belief of how God created this world), right? G. Hinckley said y'all didn't really teach that anymore.

Well, just as a point for you to consider... Sex is the means by which a physical being is created. There is nothing in any of our scriptures (including the Bible) to say how a spirit is created. The Bible does say, though, that God is the "Father of spirits." If God was able to father spirits by some unknown process (as most Christians would have to believe, if they believe the Bible), why do they assume that the Latter-day Saints see having endless sex in heaven as the means by which this would be accomplished in the eternities to come?

 

[neillien]

Mormonism is Christian, but historical Christianity is Judaeo-Christian. In short, Christianity came out of Judaism; its prophecies, people and archaeology. But Mormonism works backwards. It comes out of Christianity and references Judaism.

The new covenant that stems from the death, burial, resurrection of Christ, does 1 (one) most-major event. It ends the old covenant. There is no more Aaronic priesthood. To a believer who follows historic Christianity, there is no righteousness that comes from the law (served by the priesthood). And none of the LDS Aaronic priesthood rituals come from Judaism anyway. [space limits discussing Melchizedek]

* Christ gave us a righteousness from faith, without Aaronic law.
* The Aaronic priesthood is no longer efficacious for serving God.
* The Aaronic priesthood is actually an anti-christ of sorts.
Because, if you want the law and a priesthood you are saying (according to the Bible) that Christ died in vain. Read Romans and Hebrews. You can't have a literal priesthood and a personal faith.

Mormonism is a Christian religion but highly undocumented. Plus, any burning you receive has nothing to do with the facts of the Judaeo-Christian belief.

 

[Starfish]

Mormonism is Christian, but historical Christianity is Judaeo-Christian. In short, Christianity came out of Judaism; its prophecies, people and archaeology. But Mormonism works backwards. It comes out of Christianity and references Judaism.

The new covenant that stems from the death, burial, resurrection of Christ, does 1 (one) most-major event. It ends the old covenant. There is no more Aaronic priesthood. To a believer who follows historic Christianity, there is no righteousness that comes from the law (served by the priesthood). And none of the LDS Aaronic priesthood rituals come from Judaism anyway. [space limits discussing Melchizedek]

* Christ gave us a righteousness from faith, without Aaronic law.
* The Aaronic priesthood is no longer efficacious for serving God.
* The Aaronic priesthood is actually an anti-christ of sorts.
Because, if you want the law and a priesthood you are saying (according to the Bible) that Christ died in vain. Read Romans and Hebrews. You can't have a literal priesthood and a personal faith.

Mormonism is a Christian religion but highly undocumented. Plus, any burning you receive has nothing to do with the facts of the Judaeo-Christian belief.

John the Baptist held the Aaronic Priesthood (in fact, he was the only one on earth at the time who did), which gave him the authority to baptize Christ. Which is why Christ sought him out to be baptized.

If I understand your first paragraph correctly, I agree with it.

 

[Bathsheba]

Well, just as a point for you to consider... Sex is the means by which a physical being is created. There is nothing in any of our scriptures (including the Bible) to say how a spirit is created. The Bible does say, though, that God is the "Father of spirits." If God was able to father spirits by some unknown process (as most Christians would have to believe, if they believe the Bible), why do they assume that the Latter-day Saints see having endless sex in heaven as the means by which this would be accomplished in the eternities to come?

Actually, I think there is the potential to fall into their trap by considering this point. Getting side tracked by these sensational details is one of the things that the film makers want, imho. Perhaps your point makes for good apologetics, but is it really something that has lasting value? (ie. more people brought to a knowledge of the "restoration" through a "spiritual conversion") If I was a marketing consultant for the LDS church I would strongly advise the membership to stay out of these discussions, for their own sake and for the sake of the church. But such restraint is not likely gonna happen because people (by their nature it seems) love to get off "message". It's like running a good campaign; you don't wanna let your opposition get you off message. But some campaigns seem like they don't want to win (oh I'm sure they want to win, or in other words, they do want to achieve the stated goals but the unconscious drivers set up another agenda), and they demonstrate a lack of control, focus, discipline and vision. They get side-swiped by the mundane base arguments (I'm speaking relative to Mormons memes), I dunno, maybe because of ego and the almost neurotic need to explain and defend. It's all just a crazy distraction and it seems to be working on some of the membership.

But to your last question, "why do they assume that?” maybe they are just yanking your chain.

 

[sojourner]

John the Baptist held the Aaronic Priesthood (in fact, he was the only one on earth at the time who did), which gave him the authority to baptize Christ. Which is why Christ sought him out to be baptized.

If I understand your first paragraph correctly, I agree with it.

John wasn't a Christian. John was a Jew. Christ was baptized with John's baptism, which was a Jewish baptism, for remission of sin -- not a Christian baptism into the Church. It was not any priesthood that gave him authority to baptize Christ. It was Christ who gave him the authority.

 

[sojourner]

The new covenant that stems from the death, burial, resurrection of Christ, does 1 (one) most-major event. It ends the old covenant.

Actually, it fulfills, not "ends" the O.C.

 

[Starfish]

John wasn't a Christian. John was a Jew. Christ was baptized with John's baptism, which was a Jewish baptism, for remission of sin -- not a Christian baptism into the Church. It was not any priesthood that gave him authority to baptize Christ. It was Christ who gave him the authority.

John was the last legal administrator from the Mosaic era. His authority bridged the old law of Moses to the new law of Christ. He received this authority as an infant and his mission was to prepare the way for Christ. (Isa. 40:3) Since Christ was the God of the Old Testament, then yes, you could say John received his authority from Christ. And you could also say that Christ hadn't yet organized his church (Christianity) at the time of his baptism.

The law of Moses, Judaism, was the correct religion in it's day (though by the time Christ came it was greatly corrupted), and Christ is the fulfillment of that law. True Christianity is, in a sense, the current and correct version of the old law.

 

[Troublemane]

I dont see how Isaiah 40 can be used as a reference to John the Baptist. The complete quote is this: (Isaiah, ch. 40)

" Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.

2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD's hand double for all her sins.

3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:

5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

6 The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field:

7 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass.

8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

9 O Zion, that bringest good tidings, get thee up into the high mountain; O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God!

10 Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

11 He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.

12 Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance?

13 Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or being his counsellor hath taught him?

14 With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding?

15 Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold, he taketh up the isles as a very little thing.

16 And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn, nor the beasts thereof sufficient for a burnt offering.

17 All nations before him are as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.

18 To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him?

19 The workman melteth a graven image, and the goldsmith spreadeth it over with gold, and casteth silver chains.

20 He that is so impoverished that he hath no oblation chooseth a tree that will not rot; he seeketh unto him a cunning workman to prepare a graven image, that shall not be moved.

21 Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?

22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

23 That bringeth the princes to nothing; he maketh the judges of the earth as vanity.

24 Yea, they shall not be planted; yea, they shall not be sown: yea, their stock shall not take root in the earth: and he shall also blow upon them, and they shall wither, and the whirlwind shall take them away as stubble.

25 To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.

26 Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that he is strong in power; not one faileth.

27 Why sayest thou, O Jacob, and speakest, O Israel, My way is hid from the LORD, and my judgment is passed over from my God?

28 Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.

29 He giveth power to the faint; and to them that have no might he increaseth strength.

30 Even the youths shall faint and be weary, and the young men shall utterly fall:

31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint."

Its obvious from the first two lines that this chapter is about the glory to Israel for conquering its enemies, that now its warfare is over and God shall return to bring peace to Israel. This is not a reference to Jesus nor John,though it is a common misconception that Isaiah and the other OT prophets predicted the future, when actually they were critics whose writings referred only to their own time period.

 

[Starfish]

I dont see how Isaiah 40 can be used as a reference to John the Baptist. The complete quote is this: (Isaiah, ch. 40)


Its obvious from the first two lines that this chapter is about the glory to Israel for conquering its enemies, that now its warfare is over and God shall return to bring peace to Israel. This is not a reference to Jesus nor John,though it is a common misconception that Isaiah and the other OT prophets predicted the future, when actually they were critics whose writings referred only to their own time period.

Verse 3 is about John the Baptist. But you can believe what you choose to believe. Isaiah spoke about the present, past, and future. That's partly why he's so difficult to understand. There are many prophecies in the OT about Christ.

 

[Katzpur]

Actually, I think there is the potential to fall into their trap by considering this point. Getting side tracked by these sensational details is one of the things that the film makers want, imho. Perhaps your point makes for good apologetics, but is it really something that has lasting value? (ie. more people brought to a knowledge of the "restoration" through a "spiritual conversion")

That's a good point.

If I was a marketing consultant for the LDS church I would strongly advise the membership to stay out of these discussions, for their own sake and for the sake of the church. But such restraint is not likely gonna happen because people (by their nature it seems) love to get off "message". It's like running a good campaign; you don't wanna let your opposition get you off message. But some campaigns seem like they don't want to win (oh I'm sure they want to win, or in other words, they do want to achieve the stated goals but the unconscious drivers set up another agenda), and they demonstrate a lack of control, focus, discipline and vision. They get side-swiped by the mundane base arguments (I'm speaking relative to Mormons memes), I dunno, maybe because of ego and the almost neurotic need to explain and defend. It's all just a crazy distraction and it seems to be working on some of the membership.

Actually, our advertising and marketing is done by a Jewish-owned law firm back in New York and they have nothing to say to the membership of the Church. Church leadership, however, says exactly what you're suggesting. We actually don't even bother addressing that sort of nonsense unless someone specifically starts going off on what "those Mormons believe," and then we simply try to set the record straight and move on to other topics. That's why we've never bothered doing a film to counter "The Godmakers." It's essentially counter-productive.

But to your last question, "why do they assume that?” maybe they are just yanking your chain.

It's hard to say. I seriously think they're scared silly that we're infiltrating their flocks and corrupting the minds of "real" Christians. I can't imagine why else they would put so much time, energy and money into trying to "protect" the unsuspecting masses.