Why Dont Christians Accept the Book of Mormon as Valid?

[SoyLeche]

So, you don't have any dogma?

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that.

Do I hold my beliefs infallible? No.

The rest of your post is really a topic for another thread. I'm not going to take this one any further on that tangent.

 

[neillien]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that. Do I hold my beliefs infallible? . . .

pretty much: a belief that cannot be changed in your mind; such as
JS was a prophet and that the CoJCoLDS is the restored church.
And since I want to ask a question concerning you having no dogma, do you believe that proposition [the one in red] but cannot know for sure that it is true?

. . . another thread . . .

 

[SoyLeche]

pretty much: a belief that cannot be changed in your mind; such as
JS was a prophet and that the CoJCoLDS is the restored church.
And since I want to ask a question concerning you having no dogma, do you believe that proposition [the one in red] but cannot know for sure that it is true?

It can be believed, and that belief can be very certain. You can know it with about as much certainty that you can know anything in life. I'd still say that there is a chance (albeit a small one) that the belief is wrong.

 

[uss_bigd]

Does the Bible condemn polygamy? It states that people who are authorities in the NT church should have one wife only. Yes, there were plenty of OT problems but I've yet to read one of the 613 Hebrew laws against multiple wives.

It is a man made law in the U.S.; not a God-made law.

If we check the context of 1 Tim chapter 3. the first few verses states what "the character" of the deacon/bishop must be.

The bible condemned fornication and adultery. Adultery means having sex with another person other than your wife. The english dictionary did not state "wives." The verse below settles everything.

Mat 19:9

"And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery."

 

[DeepShadow]

If the Book of Mormon advocated polygamy, this discussion might be relevant to the thread. It does not, therefore please confine yourselves to the topic at hand.

 

[uss_bigd]

If the Book of Mormon advocated polygamy, this discussion might be relevant to the thread. It does not, therefore please confine yourselves to the topic at hand.

The book of Mormons condoned to polygamy, and the teachings of Christ in the bible doesn't.

Two contradicting concepts cannot be both true. That is ONE reason why the book of mormons is not considered valid.

Other reasons will include the fact that nobody came after the apostles to write there own book. The biblical proof is written in;

1 Corinthians 4:9

For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.

1 Corinthians 4:6
"And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another."

To God be the Glory!

 

[Sola'lor]

The book of Mormons condoned to polygamy, and the teachings of Christ in the bible doesn't.

Actually the Book of Mormon condemns polygamy

Jacob 2:23-28
23 But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son.
24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.
27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.

Two contradicting concepts cannot be both true. That is ONE reason why the book of mormons is not considered valid.

There's no contradiction between the Book of Mormon and the Bble.

Other reasons will include the fact that nobody came after the apostles to write there own book. The biblical proof is written in;

1 Corinthians 4:9

For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.

1 Corinthians 4:6
"And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another."

To God be the Glory!

That why the church needed to be restored because the Apostle all were killed and didn't pass on their keys of authority to other people. They were killed and the Preisthood was lost. The church was distorted by the doctrines of men. Therefore it was neccessary for the church to be restored

Amos 3:7
7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

 

[uss_bigd]

Actually the Book of Mormon condemns polygamy

Jacob 2:23-28
23 But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son.
24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.
27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.




There's no contradiction between the Book of Mormon and the Bble.

There is definitely a contradiction. you just exposed that the things written in the book mormons contradicted itself...:angel2:

 

[uss_bigd]

They were killed and the Preisthood was lost.

Hebrews 7:24
But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

You are mistaken sir, Christ has an unchangeable preisthood.

The church was distorted by the doctrines of men. Therefore it was neccessary for the church to be restored

The bible was not distorted, and Paul eplicitly isntructed to keep to that which is written. and john said that we can have feloowship with them through the Gospel.

Christ is the Head of the church, with an inchangeable priesthood. There is no need for restoration because the Chruch was not destroyed. The church was the body of christ. "keep to that which is written and you will have fellowhip with us" said the apostles."

Timothy, the righthand of Paul received these instructions:

1 Timothy 4:6
If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

1 Timothy 1:3
As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,


1 Timothy 4:16
Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

1 Timothy 6:1
Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.

 

[uss_bigd]

Amos 3:7
7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

What is you biblical proof that he was referring to Joseph Smith?

 

[Sola'lor]

There is definitely a contradiction. you just exposed that the things written in the book mormons contradicted itself...:angel2:

Well that might actually be relevent if that quote was from the Book of Mormon. It's not. It's from the Doctrine and Covenants. It even says that up in the corner. it says Donctrine and Covenants 132:61-62. So please try top find that contradiction in the Book of Mormon. Besides, it's actually the Book of Mormon NOT the Book of Mormons.

Hebrews 7:24
But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

You are mistaken sir, Christ has an unchangeable preisthood.

I'm not mistaken becuase I absolutely AGREE that Christ has an unchangable priesthood. I never sai dthat He didn't. What I did say is that the Keys of the Priesthood which where held the the twelve apostles were taken from the earth after ther deaths. Because no one on the earth but the Apostles can hold these keys. Since there were no more Apostles there was no more Priesthood on the earth. Thus the church no longer had the authority to perform the churches functions.

The bible was not distorted, and Paul eplicitly isntructed to keep to that which is written. and john said that we can have feloowship with them through the Gospel.

I didn't say the Bible was distorted, I said the doctrines of the church were distorted. We can see that clearly because of the huge differences between the Catholic church and the Church that Christ established.

Christ is the Head of the church, with an inchangeable priesthood. There is no need for restoration because the Chruch was not destroyed. The church was the body of christ. "keep to that which is written and you will have fellowhip with us" said the apostles."

So why then is the church completely different that that which was established by Christ?

Timothy, the righthand of Paul received these instructions:

1 Timothy 4:6
If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

1 Timothy 1:3
As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,


1 Timothy 4:16
Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

1 Timothy 6:1
Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.

I don't disagree with any of these scriptures.

What is you biblical proof that he was referring to Joseph Smith?

What is me biblical proof that this scripture was refering to Joseph Smith? I never said this scripture was refering to Joseph Smith. I only used the scripture to counter your arguement that it is OK that God has not called any more prophets or apostles since the time of His original church.

But I think we are getting a little off topic. If you want to discuss this futher then you can start another thread.

 

[uss_bigd]

I don't disagree with any of these scriptures.

Then, you agree that Timothy was instructed to keep the same doctrine taught by Paul, which did not include having ten virgin wives?

 

[Sola'lor]

Then, you agree that Timothy was instructed to keep the same doctrine taught by Paul, which did not include having ten virgin wives?

I definatly agree that Paul taught Timothy to teach those things that God wanted the people of that time to live by. I also definatly agree that Paul didn't have Timothy teach anything to the people of the NT about having ten virgins wives.

But what does this have to do with the Book of Mormon? Since the Book of Mormon expressly condemns having multiple wives.

 

[uss_bigd]

What is me biblical proof that this scripture was refering to Joseph Smith? I never said this scripture was refering to Joseph Smith. I only used the scripture to counter your arguement that it is OK that God has not called any more prophets or apostles since the time of His original church.

you are referring to what amos who was a prophet that came before Christ, and Christ came, his apostles came, and the very same apostles said:

1 Corinthians 4:9
For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.

LAST MEANS END. Jospeh Smith is not included.

But I think we are getting a little off topic. If you want to discuss this futher then you can start another thread.

very much in the topic sir, i am proving the basis for my answer as to why Christians do not ackowledge the book of mormons as valid.

 

[uss_bigd]

Well that might actually be relevent if that quote was from the Book of Mormon. It's not. It's from the Doctrine and Covenants. It even says that up in the corner. it says Donctrine and Covenants 132:61-62. So please try top find that contradiction in the Book of Mormon. Besides, it's actually the Book of Mormon NOT the Book of Mormons.
.

Which church taught this doctrines and covenants?

 

[uss_bigd]

I definatly agree that Paul taught Timothy to teach those things that God wanted the people of that time to live by. I also definatly agree that Paul didn't have Timothy teach anything to the people of the NT about having ten virgins wives.

But what does this have to do with the Book of Mormon? Since the Book of Mormon expressly condemns having multiple wives.

Your chruch's doctrines and covenants,did say the bishop can have 10 vrgin wives.

Two contradicting concepts cannot be both true, hence your Church's doctrine contradics Christs.

 

[Sola'lor]

you are referring to what amos who was a prophet that came before Christ, and Christ came, his apostles came, and the very same apostles said:

1 Corinthians 4:9
For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.

LAST MEANS END. Jospeh Smith is not included.

So which scripture is right then? Amos doens't say 'God will do nothing be reveal His secret unto His Servants the Prophets until the time of Chirst when after those prophets dies there will be no more.'

I reconcile these two verses because I interpret Amos to hold true and that it is the standard of God to raise up Prophets to reveal His word. Now it's possible that Timothy knew they were going to be that last Apostles in that time period. Or since it says "I think" at the beginning of that verse that means it is his opinion, not doctrine. Since Apostles opinons aren't docrtine. This couls also be plausable because Timothy thaught they they would be tthe last generation before Christ's second coming, since it was a common belief back then that Christs Second coming would only be a few years after His resurrection.

very much in the topic sir, i am proving the basis for my answer as to why Christians do not ackowledge the book of mormons as valid.

Ok, if you say insist.

 

[Sola'lor]

Which church taught this doctrines and covenants?

It's our book the Doctrine and covenants.

Your chruch's doctrines and covenants,did say the bishop can have 10 vrgin wives.

I didn't read where it says that Bishops can have 10 virgins. It was simple giving the general example of a man having ten wives to illustrate some concepts of the docrtine of polygamy.

Two contradicting concepts cannot be both true

I agree.

hence your Church's doctrine contradics Christs.

Abraham also had more than one wife. So he was living contradictory to Christ. There fore He is condemned as well. What about the other OT prophets that had multiple wives?

What we believe is that God can reveal certain doctrines at different times to different people. This concept is very well supported in the Bible. We believe that God commanded the church to practice polygamy. Since the Book of Mormon condemns polygamy wouldn't we then be contradicting ourselves? But if a person believes God gives certain commandments to certain people during certain times. And that these commandmenst may sometimes be in opposision to each other, then there is no problem.

But of course the commandment to practice polygamy was ended in the late 1800s. Any member practicing polygamy now is excommunicated. Since it is currently our doctrine to NOT practice polygamy there's no longer a contradiction to what Christ taught, now is there?

 

[uss_bigd]

It's our book the Doctrine and covenants.

Thefore, we have established that the doctrines and covenants that i pasted in this thread belong to the Mormon Chruch.

I didn't read where it says that Bishops can have 10 virgins. It was simple giving the general example of a man having ten wives to illustrate some concepts of the docrtine of polygamy.

ok. we also agree that it was clearly stated thay your church's Doctrine and covenants condoned to man having 10 wives, which as you said is a concept of the doctrine of polygamy.

I agree.

ok, you agree that two contradictinc concepts cannot be both true.

Abraham also had more than one wife. So he was living contradictory to Christ. There fore He is condemned as well. What about the other OT prophets that had multiple wives?

Abraham was under the OT hence under old testament laws. Christ teachings is under the NT, therefore under new testament laws. Joseph Smith lived long before under christ. In order for them to have been sent by the same God, they should have preached the same teachings. and you have agreed above that they did not. Christ did not condone polygamy, Your doctrines and covenants written by Joseph Smith did.

By the way, i never said anyone is condemned. no one is.

you might ask, where in the bible does it state that the laws was changed?

Heb 7:12

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."

When the priesthood was changed from the israelites to Christ the law was changed. hence Christ said in another verse " I didn't come to change the lawm but to PERFECT the law"

What we believe is that God can reveal certain doctrines at different times to different people. This concept is very well supported in the Bible. We believe that God commanded the church to practice polygamy.

unfortunately sir, you are misled, as i have mentioned. the apostles were suppose to be the last, and the instruction was to keep to what is written and teach the same gospel. Paul even went as far as saying to condemn even an angel from heaven that will teach a different gospel.

logic will dictate that it is improssible for the same God in the bible to command your church to polygamy when He sent Christ to change the law. again, Joseph Smith did not live until long after Christ.

Since the Book of Mormon condemns polygamy wouldn't we then be contradicting ourselves? But if a person believes God gives certain commandments to certain people during certain times. And that these commandmenst may sometimes be in opposision to each other, then there is no problem.

You read it yourself sir, the doctrines and covenants contradicted the verse you pasted from Jacob which you said came from the book of mormon.

again, The God in the bible couldn't have sent Joseph Smith, because he taught differently than Christ.

But of course the commandment to practice polygamy was ended in the late 1800s. Any member practicing polygamy now is excommunicated. Since it is currently our doctrine to NOT practice polygamy there's no longer a contradiction to what Christ taught, now is there?

I wish its that easy sir, the question now is, was your Church founded with the same doctrine as Christ? we have agreed that it was not. hence, we are under this commandment at this point.

John 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Seek and ye shall find.

If i may reiterate, i never said anyone is condemned. it is biblical not to condemn anyone: that is why Paul was instructed by Christ himself to:

Acts 26:18
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

and

1 Corinthians 5:13
God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."


but be warned...

John said
John 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.


To God be the Glory!

 

[Sola'lor]

Thefore, we have established that the doctrines and covenants that i pasted in this thread belong to the Mormon Chruch.

Yep.

ok. we also agree that it was clearly stated thay your church's Doctrine and covenants condoned to man having 10 wives, which as you said is a concept of the doctrine of polygamy.

when it says 10 wives it is only using that as an example. It could have been written as five or twenty. The number is irrelevant, what matters is the concept. But as I said befoe the Church no longer practices polygamy and any members practicing it aree excommunicated.

ok, you agree that two contradictinc concepts cannot be both true.

From a certain point of view. But I also believe that in our limited view there are occasions where there may be concepts that appear to be contradictory but in reality are not.

Abraham was under the OT hence under old testament laws. Christ teachings is under the NT, therefore under new testament laws. Joseph Smith lived long before under christ. In order for them to have been sent by the same God, they should have preached the same teachings. and you have agreed above that they did not. Christ did not condone polygamy, Your doctrines and covenants written by Joseph Smith did.

Adam until Moses the people were under a specific law. Moses until Christ the people were under the Law of Moses. CHrist until not the people are under the Law of the Gospel. No problems there. All I'm saying is that God can reveal certain things to certain people at certain times. The premortal Christ revealed to Abraham to practice polygamy. During Christ's life on the Earth He didn't approve it. During Joseph Smith's time he allowed at again for a time. Then He took it away again.

By the way, i never said anyone is condemned. no one is.

you might ask, where in the bible does it state that the laws was changed?

Heb 7:12

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."

When the priesthood was changed from the israelites to Christ the law was changed. hence Christ said in another verse " I didn't come to change the lawm but to PERFECT the law"

I definatly agree that Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses.

unfortunately sir, you are misled, as i have mentioned. the apostles were suppose to be the last, and the instruction was to keep to what is written and teach the same gospel. Paul even went as far as saying to condemn even an angel from heaven that will teach a different gospel.

Where does Christ say they were supposed to be the last? All you have shown me so far is one verse that starts off with "I think." Hardly a convincing statment. Where as I have given you a verse that most definatly states God will always have prophets at some time or another on the Earth.

logic will dictate that it is improssible for the same God in the bible to command your church to polygamy when He sent Christ to change the law. again, Joseph Smith did not live until long after Christ.

Logic dictates to me that an all might God, master of the entire universe can command His people to do anything He wants them to do at any given time. It doesn't matter wether they came before or after Christ. If God wants His people to live polygamy then those people should do it. It doesn't matter what someon had said to a people 1800+ years ago. What is relevent is What God tells us through His prophets today. Even if it's something that completely cotradicts everything in the Bible. If that is what God wants for His people at that point in time, then that is what He wants.

What is illogical, is to think that a commandment specifically given to a people living 2000 years ago is binding upon people nowdays. Unless of course God will send a prophet to give those commandments to the people of the modern generation.

You read it yourself sir, the doctrines and covenants contradicted the verse you pasted from Jacob which you said came from the book of mormon.

Don't you think it odd that if Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Moromn that he would condemn polygamy there but them practice it in His church. Unless of course if Joseph Smith was actually a prophet of God who translated the Book of Mormon and God revealed to Him to practice polygamy at that certain time.

again, The God in the bible couldn't have sent Joseph Smith, because he taught differently than Christ.

So the God of the bible wont give commandments that are pertanant to the living generation but that they must rely entirely upon words spoken thousands of years ago? The God of my Bible certainly wouldn't do that.

I wish its that easy sir, the question now is, was your Church founded with the same doctrine as Christ? we have agreed that it was not. hence, we are under this commandment at this point.

Except for tha fact that the LDS church wasn't founded on the doctrine of polygamy. The docrtine of polygamy didn't come into effect until about 13 years after the church was founded. It was then condemned about 40 years or so after that.

John 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Seek and ye shall find.

Mormoni 10:5
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

If i may reiterate, i never said anyone is condemned. it is biblical not to condemn anyone: that is why Paul was instructed by Christ himself to:

Acts 26:18
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

and

1 Corinthians 5:13
God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."


but be warned...

John said
John 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.


To God be the Glory!

I agree with all those scriptures.