Why Dont Christians Accept the Book of Mormon as Valid?

[ἀλήθεια]

What I object to is when people who are not members of my church attempt to tell anyone who will listen what Mormons believe. Most of the time, when they do this, they're either flat out wrong or at least misinformed. Even when they quote LDS leaders (and most of the time, it's a leader who has been dead for a hundred years or so), they don't really understand the quote within the wider context of our complete theology.

Many of the LDS that I run into particularly like to find fault with non-LDS who happen to be quite knowledgable about their religion. If the LDS want to withhold information from non-LDS who aren't familiar with their beliefs, they will criticize the knowledgable non-LDS poster's information (taken from LDS sources) and yet not bother to explain why previous prophets, apostles, and other general authorities approved of and taught those doctrines. For instance, on another thread you stated that I seemed quite knowledgeable and even went so far as to ask if I am a former Mormon. That was on the thread "Do God the Father and God the Son have physical bodies?" (if you will look at post numbers 240 and 241).

They will present a doctrine that we see as being relatively obscure and/or insignificant and present it as if it was a core doctrine of our faith. They will not only quote leaders who are not around to explain how their comments were meant to be interpreted but will consistently put their own spin on a comment than can be explained in a variety of ways.

I don’t believe I have put a spin on anything and if I had, you and other LDS were free to clarify. For instance, D&C 132:19 talks about "a continuation of the seeds forever." Does that not refer to a man and woman’s act of bringing offspring into existence? Would it not refer to spirit children being born of glorified parents who have bodies of flesh and bone?

Almost without exception, the spin in a negative one.

Is there something negative about LDS gods having "a continuation of the seeds forever?"

Then, when we attempt to clarify what our beliefs really are, they will pull one or two phrases out of our reply and use them to further mislead people into thinking we believe something quite different than we actually do. It gets to be frustrating. You may say, "But isn't that the point of debate? If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen." My answer would have to be, "This isn't debate. This is an attempt on behalf of certain non-believers to portray the beliefs of another group of people in the worst possible light."
I have had so many debates with so many people on this forum over the past four years (nearly 16,000 posts, if you'll take notice of that fact) that I have long since lost count. I have defended my beliefs to dozens and dozens of anti-Mormons (and no, I don't use the words "non-Mormon" and "anti-Mormon" interchangeably) and have only run into three or four individuals that I have simply decided to ignore. I don't actually put them on "ignore" because I want to see what they have to say. Incidentally, the only person on this forum I actually have on "ignore" is a fellow Latter-day Saint.

Am I to believe that you are ignoring me (even though you want to read my posts) because "This isn't debate. This is an attempt on behalf of certain non-believers to portray the beliefs of another group of people in the worst possible light?"
What am I saying that is the "worst possible light?" I much prefer to portray accurate teachings of LDS.

 

[DarkMaster24]

I didn't accuse you of ridiculing me. On the other hand, you have stated categorically on other threads that you believe that anyone who believes in God is stupid. It was because I know that you consider me to be unintelligent that I saw no reason to give you more than a one-word response. If you were in my shoes, would you have made the effort to do more?

Correct, I have said that and it is true that I think religious people are a bit stupid, but that doesn't mean I don't value your opinion.And I don't want to veiw you as unintelligent, but I can't help it and I'm trying to work on changing that.

I think if I were you, I'd of made more of a meaningful reply than saying no. Sorry, but that answer was disappointing. (not this post, tne "no" you gave me is what I'm talking to.)

 

[Katzpur]

I think if I were you, I'd of made more of a meaningful reply than saying no. Sorry, but that answer was disappointing. (not this post, tne "no" you gave me is what I'm talking to.)

Okay, but to be fair, I had already answered this question in a fair amount of detail. How many times should I be expected to repeat the same answer in one thread?

 

[DarkMaster24]

Hi,name that I can't pronounce (hehe sorry can't think of another name to call you), I would just like to say that unlike most people involved in this thread, I don't thin you're hateful or intolerent. I appreciate your insightful posts, and you seem to be a very kind person. Keep up the good replies, weather you know it or not, some people (like me) enjoy reading them.

 

[DarkMaster24]

Okay, but to be fair, I had already answered this question in a fair amount of detail. How many times should I be expected to repeat the same answer in one thread?

Right, but I didn't know that, since you had directed me to the reply after you intitially responded. Anyhow, I later read that reply and got alot out of it. Some of those quotes were interesting. Like the CS Lewis one for instance, I didn't know he endoresed the LDS teaching of being able to become a god. And I definately would never of concidered St. Augustine thought the same thing.

 

[idea]

...yet not bother to explain why previous prophets, apostles, and other general authorities approved of and taught those doctrines.

Do christians teach how to sacrifice animals? It is in the OT you know - were the prophets who taught it wrong? gone astray? So why are you not sacrificing animals? It is in the Bible...

Different prophets for different times and different people. Ask anything you like about our current prophet - President Monson. He teaches the approved doctrines of our church for what applies today for us.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

Do christians teach how to sacrifice animals? It is in the OT you know - were the prophets who taught it wrong? gone astray? So why are you not sacrificing animals? It is in the Bible...

Hebrews 7
26For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

27Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. 28For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

Different prophets for different times and different people. Ask anything you like about our current prophet - President Monson. He teaches the approved doctrines of our church for what applies today for us.

So the God that is described in the Nicene Creed was a monster in the 1840s but today He is not a monster? Is that what you're telling me?

Are the Christians' creeds no longer an abomination to God? Or have the Christian creeds been changed?

Are LDS no longer taught to do what is necessary to become gods and have a continuation of the seeds forever?

Doctrine and Covenants SECTION 131
Instructions by Joseph Smith the Prophet, given at Ramus, Illinois, May 16 and 17, 1843. HC 5: 392–393.
1–4, Celestial marriage is essential to exaltation in the highest heaven; 5–6, How men are sealed up unto eternal life; 7–8, All spirit is matter.
1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;


2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood[meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];


3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.


4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.



Is Christendom no longer apostate and the LDS church no longer a restoration of the original Church of Christ? Are LDS teachings no longer the true Gospel and is LDS authority to baptize no longer necessary? Is baptism into the LDS church no longer the gate to eternal life? Is marriage for time and eternity in an LDS temple not the strait and narrow way?

"For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.” (2 Nephi 31:17)

18 And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive. (2 Nephi 31: 18-19)


My brothers and sisters, we see from this that the function of the Holy Ghost to those who have received its bestowal is to guide in the narrow way to an understanding of what is required for eternal life and glory. Men, through faithfulness, must become worthy for ordination to the Holy Melchizedek Priesthood, that priesthood after the order of the Son of God, which ordination and priesthood makes possible receiving the spiritual blessings of God's kingdom, for it is in the gospel ordinances officiated in by the authority of the Holy Priesthood that the powers of godliness are manifest unto men in the flesh. In this dispensation God has restored the keys, powers, and authorities to officiate in all the sacred ordinances with the right to seal and bind for time and all eternity both the living and the dead. For the sacred purpose of obtaining the higher gospel ordinances and blessings, God has commanded that temples should be built wherein his people can receive their endowments and sealings, to prepare them for celestial glory...
Therefore, my brothers and sisters, these conditions then meet the requirements for the narrowness of the way. It involves receiving the temple ordinances and sealings, keeping all the commandments of God, remaining faithful and devoted to the end of mortal life, which then earns the great gift of eternal life. - Elder Delbert L. Stapley Of the Council of the Twelve Apostles, Strait and Narrow Path, Conference Report, April 1955, p.65-68

"Each one of you has it within the realm of his possibility to develop a kingdom over which you will preside as its king and god. You will need to develop yourself and grow in ability and power and worthiness, to govern such a world with all of its people." (Spencer W. Kimball, ". . . the Matter of Marriage" [address delivered at University of Utah Institute of Religion, 22 Oct. 1976], 2). - Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual, Chapter 10

Is the above statement no longer applicable to LDS?

Can you please tell me which quotes of LDS leaders no longer apply?

Thank you.

Aletheia

 

[ἀλήθεια]

Hi,name that I can't pronounce (hehe sorry can't think of another name to call you), I would just like to say that unlike most people involved in this thread, I don't thin you're hateful or intolerent. I appreciate your insightful posts, and you seem to be a very kind person. Keep up the good replies, weather you know it or not, some people (like me) enjoy reading them.

I appreciate your kind words very much. I'll try to be worthy of them.

My username name is Aletheia. I don't know if the English spelling helps --- even that is a little difficult to spell.

 

[DarkMaster24]

I appreciate your kind words very much. I'll try to be worthy of them.

My username name is Aletheia. I don't know if the English spelling helps --- even that is a little difficult to spell.

Your very welcome, Aletheia, and you are worthy of them.

 

[Apex]

Correct, I have said that and it is true that I think religious people are a bit stupid, but that doesn't mean I don't value your opinion.And I don't want to veiw you as unintelligent, but I can't help it and I'm trying to work on changing that.

You are trying to work on changing that? Just yesterday you called me a racist for no other reason than me being Mormon. Just how hard are you actually trying to change your behavior?

 

[Watchmen]

Many of the LDS that I run into particularly like to find fault with non-LDS who happen to be quite knowledgable about their religion. If the LDS want to withhold information from non-LDS who aren't familiar with their beliefs, they will criticize the knowledgable non-LDS poster's information (taken from LDS sources) and yet not bother to explain why previous prophets, apostles, and other general authorities approved of and taught those doctrines. For instance, on another thread you stated that I seemed quite knowledgeable and even went so far as to ask if I am a former Mormon. That was on the thread "Do God the Father and God the Son have physical bodies?" (if you will look at post numbers 240 and 241).



I don’t believe I have put a spin on anything and if I had, you and other LDS were free to clarify. For instance, D&C 132:19 talks about "a continuation of the seeds forever." Does that not refer to a man and woman’s act of bringing offspring into existence? Would it not refer to spirit children being born of glorified parents who have bodies of flesh and bone?



Is there something negative about LDS gods having "a continuation of the seeds forever?"



Am I to believe that you are ignoring me (even though you want to read my posts) because "This isn't debate. This is an attempt on behalf of certain non-believers to portray the beliefs of another group of people in the worst possible light?"
What am I saying that is the "worst possible light?" I much prefer to portray accurate teachings of LDS.

You spin. We clarify. You ignore.

Repeat as needed.

 

[Watchmen]

Correct, I have said that and it is true that I think religious people are a bit stupid, but that doesn't mean I don't value your opinion.And I don't want to veiw you as unintelligent, but I can't help it and I'm trying to work on changing that.

I think if I were you, I'd of made more of a meaningful reply than saying no. Sorry, but that answer was disappointing. (not this post, tne "no" you gave me is what I'm talking to.)

Am I still a bigot then?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

*** MOD POST ***​

Please remember that this thread is in the Same Faith Debates forum. Threads in this forum are for debating between members of the same faith (in this case, Christians) only.

If you are not a member of this faith, please refrain from participating in this thread. If you want to voice your opinion on the topic being discussed, you are welcome to start a thread in one of the general debates forums.

Thanks,

9-10ths_Penguin
Mod

 

[edward]

Why don't I accept the Book of Mormon as valid?

Without reading through 1400+ messages to see if someone else has said the same thing, I must say that my response is really quite simple. To accept the Book of Mormon as valid, I would need to accept Joseph Smith's story as valid. If I did that, I would be accepting Joseph Smith at his word. If I accepted Joseph Smith at his word, I would be LDS. I am not LDS, therefore I do not accept the Book of Mormon.

There are other things about Mr. Smith that I cannot accept, but that is off the topic of the Book of Mormon.

Thank you.

Edward

 

[edward]

So, it's your position that the Book of Mormon isn't valid because of your online interaction with a Mormon on a message board dedicated to religious thought, and that interaction included your disapproval of how a particular poster was treated when you don't even know whether that particular poster deserved the threatment or not because you haven't been around long enough to know.

Got it.

Well, to wrap up this little diversion... No one deserves to be treated the way that has been demonstrated on this thread. It doesn't matter what the reasons are. If insulting people is part and parcel of having a discussion on religious thought then I am in the wrong place. Jesus said that if you are offended you should turn the other cheek. You, sir, are not turning the other cheek.

My position on the validity of the Book of Mormon is posted above.

Unless you want to discuss the above post, I don't see any purpose in continuing along this vein and will not feed into your animosity for a fellow human being.

Edward

 

[Watchmen]

Why don't I accept the Book of Mormon as valid?

Without reading through 1400+ messages to see if someone else has said the same thing, I must say that my response is really quite simple. To accept the Book of Mormon as valid, I would need to accept Joseph Smith's story as valid. If I did that, I would be accepting Joseph Smith at his word. If I accepted Joseph Smith at his word, I would be LDS. I am not LDS, therefore I do not accept the Book of Mormon.

There are other things about Mr. Smith that I cannot accept, but that is off the topic of the Book of Mormon.

Thank you.

Edward

Do you accept Biblical prophets at their word or through the Holy Spirit?

 

[Katzpur]

Why don't I accept the Book of Mormon as valid?

Without reading through 1400+ messages to see if someone else has said the same thing, I must say that my response is really quite simple. To accept the Book of Mormon as valid, I would need to accept Joseph Smith's story as valid. If I did that, I would be accepting Joseph Smith at his word. If I accepted Joseph Smith at his word, I would be LDS. I am not LDS, therefore I do not accept the Book of Mormon.

There are other things about Mr. Smith that I cannot accept, but that is off the topic of the Book of Mormon.

Thank you.

Edward

You know, this is probably the most intelligent response I've seen yet to the OP. 99% of the others don't even address the OP. On the other hand, as I've said a few times already, the question posed in the OP is pretty stupid. Besides, 13 million Christians do accept it as valid.

 

[RemnanteK]

Do you accept Biblical prophets at their word or through the Holy Spirit?

Speaking about prophets, do you think only 'LDS' can be a prophets or if not, who can be?

Thanks.

 

[Apex]

Speaking about prophets, do you think only 'LDS' can be a prophets or if not, who can be?

Thanks.

Well, we accept the Bible and the prophets within, so that should pretty much answer your question.

 

[edward]

I already suggested "Mormon Doctrine" was Mormon doctrine, they say it ain't. And the Book of Abraham ain't on their list neither.

The LDS "Standard Works" are:

KJV Bible
Book of Mormon
Doctrine and Covenants
Pearl of Great Price

The Book of Abraham is included in the Pearl of Great Price; it is official doctrine.