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Why Dont Christians Accept the Book of Mormon as Valid?

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idea

Question Everything
The truth of the Book of Mormon is not found in its geography, history, or poetic patterns. The truth of the Book of Mormon is in its testimony that Jesus is the Christ.

I agree.

"The evidence for its truth, for its validity in a world that is prone to demand evidence, lies not in archaeology or anthropology, though these may be helpful to some. It lies not in word research or historical analysis, though these may be confirmatory. The evidence for its truth and validity lies within the covers of the book itself. The test of its truth lies in reading it. It is a book of God. Reasonable people may sincerely question its origin; but those who have read it prayerfully have come to know by a power beyond their natural senses that it is true, that it contains the word of God, that it outlines saving truths of the everlasting gospel, that it “came forth by the gift and power of God … to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ” - Hinckley
 

idea

Question Everything
It is scripture if "Did not our hearts burn within us, while he opened to us the scriptures, Luke 24:32" you feel the spirit while reading it.

(PS - not everything in the Bible is "scripture"... I'll let you guess which book should not be there :) )



SCRIPTURES. See also Bible; Book of Mormon; Canon; Chronology; Doctrine and Covenants; Pearl of Great Price; Word of God
Words, both written and spoken, by holy men of God when moved upon by the Holy Ghost. The official canonized scriptures of the Church today consist of the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price. Jesus and the writers of the New Testament regarded the books of the Old Testament as scripture (Matt. 22:29; John 5:39; 2 Tim. 3:15; 2 Pet. 1:20–21).

Did not our hearts burn within us, while he opened to us the scriptures, Luke 24:32. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me, John 5:39. The words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do, 2 Ne. 32:3. As many as are led to believe the holy scriptures are firm and steadfast in the faith, Hel. 15:7–8. Men err in wresting the scriptures and do not understand them, D&C 10:63. These words are not of men nor of man, but of me, D&C 18:34–36. The coming forth of the Book of Mormon proves to the world that the scriptures are true, D&C 20:2, 8–12. Let your time be devoted to the studying of the scriptures, D&C 26:1. The scriptures are given for the Saints' instruction, D&C 33:16. The scriptures are given to the salvation of the elect, D&C 35:20. Teach the principles of my gospel, which are in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, D&C 42:12. My laws concerning these things are given in my scriptures, D&C 42:28. Whatever is spoken under the influence of the Holy Ghost is scripture, D&C 68:4.
Lost scriptures: There are many sacred writings mentioned in the scriptures that we do not have today, among which are these books and writers: the covenant (Ex. 24:7), the wars of the Lord (Num. 21:14), Jasher (Josh. 10:13; 2 Sam. 1:18), the acts of Solomon (1 Kgs. 11:41), Samuel the seer (1 Chr. 29:29), Nathan the prophet (2 Chr. 9:29), Shemaiah the prophet (2 Chr. 12:15), Iddo the prophet (2 Chr. 13:22), Jehu (2 Chr. 20:34), the sayings of the seers (2 Chr. 33:19), Enoch (Jude 1:14), and the words of Zenock, Neum, and Zenos (1 Ne. 19:10), Zenos (Jacob 5:1), Zenock and Ezias (Hel. 8:20), and a book of remembrance (Moses 6:5); and epistles to the Corinthians (1 Cor. 5:9), to the Ephesians (Eph. 3:3), and from Laodicea (Col. 4:16).

Scriptures to be preserved: We should obtain these records that we may preserve the words spoken by the prophets, 1 Ne. 3:19–20. I should preserve these plates, Jacob 1:3. These things have been kept and preserved by the hand of God, Mosiah 1:5. Take care of these sacred things, Alma 37:47. The scriptures shall be preserved in safety, D&C 42:56. Use all endeavors to preserve them, JS-H 1:59.

Value of the scriptures: Thou shalt read this law before all Israel, Deut. 31:10–13. This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth, Josh. 1:8. The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul, Ps. 19:7. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, Ps. 119:105. The scriptures testify of me, John 5:39. All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine and instruction, 2 Tim. 3:15–16. I did liken all scripture unto us, that it might be for our profit and learning, 1 Ne. 19:23. My soul delighteth in the scriptures, 2 Ne. 4:15–16. We labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, 2 Ne. 25:23. They searched the scriptures, and hearkened no more to the words of this wicked man, Jacob 7:23 (Alma 14:1). If not for these plates, we must have suffered in ignorance, Mosiah 1:2–7. They had searched the scriptures diligently, that they might know the word of God, Alma 17:2–3. The scriptures are preserved to bring souls to salvation, Alma 37:1–19 (2 Ne. 3:15). The word of God shall lead the man of Christ, Hel. 3:29. Whatsoever they speak by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture and the power of God unto salvation, D&C 68:4. Print the fulness of my scriptures for the purpose of building up my Church and to prepare my people, D&C 104:58–59. Whoso treasureth up my word shall not be deceived, JS-M 1:37.

Scriptures prophesied to come forth: Isaiah foretold the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, Isa. 29:11–14. Take thee one stick, and write upon it, for Judah, Ezek. 37:15–20. Other books will come forth, 1 Ne. 13:39. Ye need not suppose that the Bible contains all my words, 2 Ne. 29:10–14. Lay hold upon the gospel of Christ, which shall be set before you in the records that shall come forth, Morm. 7:8–9. Blessed be he that shall bring this thing to light, Morm. 8:16. Write these things and I will show them in my own due time, Ether 3:27 (Ether 4:7). We believe that he will yet reveal many things, A of F 1:9.
(Guide to the Scriptures | SScriptures.:Entry - Scriptures prophesied to come forth)
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
What exactly makes it valid?
It testifies of Jesus Christ, from beginning to end. It's purpose is to convince both "Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself until all nations." It teaches that through the grace of God, we can be perfect in Christ, that through His blood, we can have our sins remitted and become clean in God's sight. What, may I ask you, do you find invalid about a book which -- for 531 pages -- speaks of Christ, teaches of Christ and glorifies Christ?
 

Watchmen

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Any book could testify to that. Wouldn't make it scripture, though.

I can agree with that. However, what makes the BoM scripture is that it was prepared and brought forth by prophets under God's direction. "Any book" doesn't meet that burden.
 

lockyfan

Active Member
so was the bible. below is a post i made earlier to show why I do not think the book or mormon is valid

I know i am going right back to the beginning, but i believe that the bible is the word of God and when it says at
Rev 22:18-19
I am bearing witness to everyone that hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll; and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life and out of the holy city, things which are written about in this scroll.

So while i have heard things about how the book of Mormon was found, I dont believe it is from God himself because of what this scripture is saying
 

silvermoon383

Well-Known Member
Oh for heaven's sake, you did not just try to use that scripture....

5 minutes of research will show you that Rev. 22:18-19 can not be referring to the Bible for several reasons:

1. Revelations was one of the first books John wrote (I'm not totally sure but I think 1 John was written first). So he didn't follow this scripture when he wrote St. John, 2 and 3 John.

2. The Bible itself did not exist at the time that John wrote Revelations. As mentioned above some of the other books hadn't been written yet, and those that had been were still scattered about. The Bible would not be compiled for another 300 years, so it's not possible for Revelations to refer to it.

3. That scripture only warns men to not add or take away to His word. Says nothing about Him not being able to add what He wants.

4. The Book of Mormon is a separate book from the Bible, but one that stands next to it like a missionary companion. They go together so well that it's clear that they were written to be two witnesses of Christ, acting in unison.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
you go over the same point again and again. The Bible is racist, only the tribe of Levi was allowed to have the priesthood, no one else. (see Ex 6). Consider in the Bible how the Jews were treated vs. how everyone else was treated. Very racist.

He Gifted Us Our Race

It's not a curse but a gift t'us,
The best path we could seek
A place where God can lift us
We kneel; our knees is weak
And when one of us is kneelin',
We understand his fears.
We know what all us is feelin'
We cry each other's tears.
That's just what Jesus done
For all us human folk.
He agreed to come get born
To feel ever' pain and poke.
So's he could understand us,
What it is to be a slave.
So's he could get beneath us
And push us outa the grave
Would you rather be the massa
Or the Roman with his whip?
Would you rather nail the Savior--
Put vinegar to his lip?
Or learn the lessons of sufferin'--
How we nothin' without grace.
Jesus, He give us a callin'
He gifted us our race.

The last will be first. At one point in time in history, all of us were last.
There are two words in the NT Greek for "people." It's basically "us" and "them," (although that's not literal, it gets the general idea across). Laos is used when talking about "us." Ethne is used when talking about "them." I wouldn't call it racist, because it's not tied to a particular race, but to a particular culture. I believe this was the argument that Jesus had with the lawyer, when he said in Lk 10, "Who is my neighbor?" You see, Judeans were laos -- neighbors. Samaritans were ethne -- "others."

A more valid rebuttal to the racist argument would be to say that the Bible can be said to support slavery, if read the right way.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Of course God communicates with us through the Spirit, but He has always done that. Living prophets, however, serve a different purpose, now as in the past. In Old Testament times, for instance, when God wanted to communicate a specific message to all of His followers, He did so through an individual He had personally chosen and designated to be His spokesman. When Jesus Christ built His Church, He established an organization that Paul said was to exist until we all came into a unity of the faith. That organization was built upon a foundation of Prophets and Apostles. Jesus gave Peter the keys to the kingdom of Heaven, presumably choosing him because of all the Apostles, he was the only one who realized who Jesus really was -- the Son of the living God. Jesus remarked that it was through revelation from God that Peter knew this. He intended to continue to direct His Church through Peter, who would receive inspired instruction through the Spirit. Today, the Spirit speaks to me in matters regarding my own life and the lives of my family members. But the Spirit doesn't direct the affairs of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints by communicating with me and the other 13.5 million Latter-day Saints. The Spirit communicates directly with the Prophet who, just as in ancient times, is charged with revealing what is said to him to all of us. Each of us is then responsible to ask for confirmation of the truthfulness of his message. It is through the Spirit that we receive that confirmation.
I hope we can keep this impersonal. I don't want to tear anything down for you, but only hope to answer the question posed in the OP. Your post is thoughtful, but there are several points at which I disagree. Some of them are factual disagreements, others are differences of perspective.

Prophets, in the OT, were special religious people. But, since Israel was a theocracy, the prophets were also politically in charge. It was they who selected and anointed kings. It was they who had the direct pipeline to God. The Jews no longer have prophets. Since they have nothing to do with what Jesus "established," I have to wonder why that is? Why do the Jews not continue to have prophets? What has changed?

Government has changed. The world has changed. The world has become more politically established since the days of Moses, Elijah, Elisha, and Jeremiah. I just don't think you can make the argument for official "prophets" anymore. Just my opinion.

A second point is this: What, exactly, did Jesus "establish?" How do you know? There's nothing in either the written record or the Tradition of the established Church (I'll use that term to describe the Church, as it has appeared in Roman/Eastern pattern) to tell us that Jesus established any sort of organization, other than to call the Twelve, and to send out 70 (who, by the way, came home and didn't keep going out, so far as we know).

What is in the historical record is that the Twelve were seen by the early proto-Church as the leaders, because they were Jesus' chosen. When they began to die off, the Twelve appointed others to take their places. That practice has, ostensibly, continued to this present day.

Third, if we take a close look at the story of Peter receiving the keys to the kingdom, we note that the story is only available in Matthew. Therefore, we have to ask ourselves, "what did Matthew mean by including this pericope?" In the pericope, the character Peter is a symbol for the community of believers to whom the author writes. Since the whole of Matthew is concerned with the development of the community, and how they understand themselves to be in the place in which they find themselves, Matthew uses the episode to answer some important questions.

While Mormons may certainly find inspiration for themselves in the pericope (as can any Xian community), I don't think they can lay claim to it for themselves (just as Roman Catholics cannot). The keys were given to the community of believers. Peter, making the confession, did so because of faith, not because of revelation. I don't understand where you come up with that understanding, Kat.

Faith was what was at issue for that community -- not revelation. Jesus says that "flesh-and-blood has not revealed this to you, but God." In other words, the authority to be who they were (a minority, fringe community in a foreign, urban setting, which was at odds both with the political powers and the religious powers) come from faith -- from calling themselves followers of Jesus, when it wasn't popular or advisable to do that, not from some human, authoritative source.
I totally agree that He was what you say He was, and yet I don't have a problem believing that He also visited His sheep which were not a part of the same fold as those living in the Holy Land. I don't have to lose sight of anything to believe that. Furthermore, when a second witness to the Resurrection (on the other side of the world, yet) stands up and testifies that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Savior of mankind, it does absolutely nothing but strengthen the testimony of the first witness.
This doesn't "fit" with the archaeology. Jesus was part and parcel of a particular culture, found in the middle-East. First of all, if we was going to appear a second time, why to a now-extinct American culture? Why not to the Africans, the Chinese, the Scandinavians, the Celts, the Pacific Islanders -- even the American Indian tribes? Why not to all of them? Why be so specific?

And, if Jesus was going to do that, why does Matthew have Jesus tell the community to go and make the ethne into laos? You'd think there would have been some clue. If Peter really had the keys to the kingdom, and a direct pipeline to God, why wouldn't he have known that this was going to happen?

Using the Biblical passage of "other sheep" in the way you do is, I believe, mistaken. Those terms, laos and ethne refer to Judeans and the others in that area. To extend the term ethne to include people they didn't know existed is ludicrous.

When Matthew has Jesus say, "Go make disciples of all nations, he isn't referring to an ancient American culture. He's referring to the known people. (Nations is translated from ethne). The testimony of a people halfway across the world means nothing -- they're all dead. No trace. Yet, Xy, as we have received it from the beginning, is alive and well. How do you explain that?

While I see your point, I just don't agree with it from either an historical or an exegetical standpoint.
 
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sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I agree.

"The evidence for its truth, for its validity in a world that is prone to demand evidence, lies not in archaeology or anthropology, though these may be helpful to some. It lies not in word research or historical analysis, though these may be confirmatory. The evidence for its truth and validity lies within the covers of the book itself. The test of its truth lies in reading it. It is a book of God. Reasonable people may sincerely question its origin; but those who have read it prayerfully have come to know by a power beyond their natural senses that it is true, that it contains the word of God, that it outlines saving truths of the everlasting gospel, that it “came forth by the gift and power of God … to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ” - Hinckley
That's nice. It completely and effectively shuts down any attempt to read it critically.

When we began to read the Bible critically, we learned so much, not only about ourselves, but about the cultures out of which the Bible came. We became better connected with the writers and their audiences. Critical reading helped to strengthen the bonds of the community.

Apparently, Hinckley doesn't give any of that a second thought. We can learn nothing, since we don't have to read it critically.

Tell me -- I'm really curious -- do y'all treat the Bible the same way -- that is, read it prayerfully, but not critically? is all revelation just some sort of warm, fuzzy feeling, or is there analysis and exegesis involved?
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
It is scripture if "Did not our hearts burn within us, while he opened to us the scriptures, Luke 24:32" you feel the spirit while reading it.
I'm sorry. I don't buy that. declaring a writing "scriptural" is an official and communal act, which surpasses a warm, fuzzy feeling. That's not how the Biblical canon was decided. Why should the Mormon writings be treated any differently?
(PS - not everything in the Bible is "scripture"... I'll let you guess which book should not be there
smile.gif
)
I have no idea what you're talking about, unless your definition of "scripture" differs from the norm.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I can agree with that. However, what makes the BoM scripture is that it was prepared and brought forth by prophets under God's direction. "Any book" doesn't meet that burden.
Thank you. I can buy that definition.
Since we don't feel that God has directed any new writing (including the BOM, PGP, and D/C), those writings, for us, are not scripture. Therefore, the BOM, for us, is not valid.
 

Watchmen

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
That's nice. It completely and effectively shuts down any attempt to read it critically.

When we began to read the Bible critically, we learned so much, not only about ourselves, but about the cultures out of which the Bible came. We became better connected with the writers and their audiences. Critical reading helped to strengthen the bonds of the community.

Apparently, Hinckley doesn't give any of that a second thought. We can learn nothing, since we don't have to read it critically.

Tell me -- I'm really curious -- do y'all treat the Bible the same way -- that is, read it prayerfully, but not critically? is all revelation just some sort of warm, fuzzy feeling, or is there analysis and exegesis involved?

Knowledge of the Truth comes by the Spirit of the Father (as the Bible tells us Peter knew that Jesus was the Christ).
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Knowledge of the Truth comes by the Spirit of the Father (as the Bible tells us Peter knew that Jesus was the Christ).
So...our brains are left entirely out of the loop. There is no "us" in the covenantal relationship with God. It's just all about God. Is that what you're saying?
 

LittleNipper

Well-Known Member
It testifies of Jesus Christ, from beginning to end. It's purpose is to convince both "Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself until all nations." It teaches that through the grace of God, we can be perfect in Christ, that through His blood, we can have our sins remitted and become clean in God's sight. What, may I ask you, do you find invalid about a book which -- for 531 pages -- speaks of Christ, teaches of Christ and glorifies Christ?

The book of mormon presents a story of men who are unrelated in any way to JESUS CHRIST. The ONLY commission JESUS CHRIST presented HIS disciples was the GREAT COMMISSION. That is to go unto all the world and spread the GOOD NEWS. There is nowhere, anywhere, in the Bible; verses calling people to read and pray about whether the Bible is true or not. There are no verses in the Bible calling peole to pray about whether GOD exists. The Bible speaks with authority and with the assumption that everything it states is totally true and matter of fact. The Bible is presumptious to a fault.

This is not at all true with regard to the book of mormon. I do not see the ancestors of CHRIST. The bom tries to reshade CHRIST as the establisher of ritualistic traditions. I find mormonism as the establishing of another form of Judaism and temple ritualism.

I do not see any of the freedom in Christ, but contrived works and fingers that point to HUMAN REWARDS and to which side of GOD one will sit in the "celestial" kingdom... And to why there are families and why get married if it isn't forever. Sorry, I do not see the REAL CHRIST in mormonism...
 

Watchmen

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
So...our brains are left entirely out of the loop. There is no "us" in the covenantal relationship with God. It's just all about God. Is that what you're saying?

I think the "us" is us coming to God to receive his Spirit and the Truth with it.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I think the "us" is us coming to God to receive his Spirit and the Truth with it.
And, how does that happen, exactly? By using our brains, perhaps? If the BOM is so important because it reveals God to us, and if that revelation comes through reading and understanding with our brains, I don't really understand where the warm, fuzzy feeling part comes in at that particular point.
 

LittleNipper

Well-Known Member
Oh for heaven's sake, you did not just try to use that scripture....

5 minutes of research will show you that Rev. 22:18-19 can not be referring to the Bible for several reasons:

1. Revelations was one of the first books John wrote (I'm not totally sure but I think 1 John was written first). So he didn't follow this scripture when he wrote St. John, 2 and 3 John.

2. The Bible itself did not exist at the time that John wrote Revelations. As mentioned above some of the other books hadn't been written yet, and those that had been were still scattered about. The Bible would not be compiled for another 300 years, so it's not possible for Revelations to refer to it.

3. That scripture only warns men to not add or take away to His word. Says nothing about Him not being able to add what He wants.

4. The Book of Mormon is a separate book from the Bible, but one that stands next to it like a missionary companion. They go together so well that it's clear that they were written to be two witnesses of Christ, acting in unison.

Actually, Revelations was the very last book written somewhere in the 90's AD. There are no companion books where the Bible is concerned. There is the Old & New Testament.

CHRIST fulfilled the Old Testament. The New Testament presents the MESSIAH and HIS role (that of redeeming sacrafice), and the establishment of CHRIST's CHURCH. The capstone is the prophetic end times warning of Revelations.

There is no need for any other messages. One either believes what has BEEN revealed or one does not.
 

LittleNipper

Well-Known Member
That's awfully arrogant for a follower. How do you know that their religions in Africa were not as acceptable to God as an imperial Christianity that allowed them to be enslaved?

Without fully trusting in CHRIST and CHRIST alone, there is no other way of salvation. The African slaves were captured and enslaved by Africans and then sold to England and the Americas. I believe that you will find that many slave traders were very rugged individuals who really didn't think about church much, themselves, nor their fellow man. Go see the movie Amazing Grace.

Religion saves no man. Only a personal relationship with GOD through CHRIST by way of the HOLY SPIRIT will save anyone.
 

LittleNipper

Well-Known Member
Because the BoM is a record of the decendants of Ephraim.

19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
(Old Testament | Ezekiel37:19)

The nation of Israel was split. While King Solomon reigned there was peace, but when he died the peace had stopped. The kingdom then split to the north half Isreal and the south half Judah.

Ezekiel is making a prophetic prediction that the divided nation would one day be reunited. That day is now.
 
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