Why Dont Christians Accept the Book of Mormon as Valid?

[DeepwoodsofMaine]

Hello everyone,

I am a new member and just happened across this topic. I will offer my opinions about why Christians do not accept the Book of Mormon. First of all the Bible specifically states we are not to add to or take from (the Bible), and that we are to stay away from later prophets and false prophets who will come into the world in later times. I have great differences with many beliefs the good Mormon people (and they ARE very good people) have with their ideas regarding Jesus Christ.....and other planets, gods, etc. I will offer the following for your opinions:

Mormons are members of the particular subset of polytheism called henotheism, while authentic Christian theology (like Judaism) is monotheistic. Mormons generally despise being called polytheists or henotheists, and claim to be monotheists on the grounds that they worship only one god ("Heavenly Father") and condemn the worship of other gods (in this world). But make no mistake, Mormons do believe in "plural gods" (just as they prefer the term "plural marriage" to "polygamy," Mormons prefer the term "plural gods" to "polytheism").

The god Mormons worship with adoration is usually called "Heavenly Father," their version of God the Father. "Heavenly Father" is, according to Mormon theology, the maker and supreme god of this world (not to be confused with the way the term is used in 2Cor. 4:3-4). Other worlds have their own supreme gods, each worshipped with adoration by the faithful people of his own world. Moreover, the supreme god of each world is believed to have once been a human man in some other world, who worshipped his own "Heavenly Father" (and so on in infinite regress). It would be impossible to number the gods Mormons believe may exist in various worlds: "there is an infinite number of holy personages, drawn from worlds without number, who have passed on to exaltation and are thus gods" (Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, "Plurality of Gods"). Recall the limitations of polytheists' gods mentioned above. They are usually composed of and limited by natural things like time, matter, and space, and are not therefore -properly speaking- "supernatural." This is certainly true of the gods Mormons believe in ("Heavenly Father," his superiors, peers, and subordinates). For example, Mormons believe that "Heavenly Father" has a resurrected material body, i.e. that he is at least partially composed of matter that existed before him. This further requires spatial limitation, for although Mormons profess that his influence is far-reaching, they believe he can only be in one place at one time. The world "Heavenly Father" has made was not created by his word from nothing, but organized out of pre-existing material (like a carpenter makes a chair out of wood). When Mormons use words like "eternal," "almighty," and "creator" to describe God, they do not mean the same thing Jews, Christians, and Muslims mean by those words.

As I read the many pages of this interesting topic, I saw where someone (forget who now) posed the situation where Our Lady appeared to the six women. She did appear to them, and at Fatima, etc., BUT the difference is She never attempted to change Holy Scriptures or the Gospels, but only reinforced our need to pray for the people of our world, to seek peace, and to worship our Lord, Jesus Christ. She "drew" people to God's commandments, rather than attempting to push them in another direction toward a "new prophet."

I welcome any responses or explanations to my humble post.

God's Peace Always,
DeepwoodsofMaine

 

[Katzpur]

Hello everyone,

I am a new member and just happened across this topic. I will offer my opinions about why Christians do not accept the Book of Mormon. First of all the Bible specifically states we are not to add to or take from (the Bible), and that we are to stay away from later prophets and false prophets who will come into the world in later times. I have great differences with many beliefs the good Mormon people (and they ARE very good people) have with their ideas regarding Jesus Christ.....and other planets, gods, etc. I will offer the following for your opinions:

Mormons are members of the particular subset of polytheism called henotheism, while authentic Christian theology (like Judaism) is monotheistic. Mormons generally despise being called polytheists or henotheists, and claim to be monotheists on the grounds that they worship only one god ("Heavenly Father") and condemn the worship of other gods (in this world). But make no mistake, Mormons do believe in "plural gods" (just as they prefer the term "plural marriage" to "polygamy," Mormons prefer the term "plural gods" to "polytheism").

The god Mormons worship with adoration is usually called "Heavenly Father," their version of God the Father. "Heavenly Father" is, according to Mormon theology, the maker and supreme god of this world (not to be confused with the way the term is used in 2Cor. 4:3-4). Other worlds have their own supreme gods, each worshipped with adoration by the faithful people of his own world. Moreover, the supreme god of each world is believed to have once been a human man in some other world, who worshipped his own "Heavenly Father" (and so on in infinite regress). It would be impossible to number the gods Mormons believe may exist in various worlds: "there is an infinite number of holy personages, drawn from worlds without number, who have passed on to exaltation and are thus gods" (Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, "Plurality of Gods"). Recall the limitations of polytheists' gods mentioned above. They are usually composed of and limited by natural things like time, matter, and space, and are not therefore -properly speaking- "supernatural." This is certainly true of the gods Mormons believe in ("Heavenly Father," his superiors, peers, and subordinates). For example, Mormons believe that "Heavenly Father" has a resurrected material body, i.e. that he is at least partially composed of matter that existed before him. This further requires spatial limitation, for although Mormons profess that his influence is far-reaching, they believe he can only be in one place at one time. The world "Heavenly Father" has made was not created by his word from nothing, but organized out of pre-existing material (like a carpenter makes a chair out of wood). When Mormons use words like "eternal," "almighty," and "creator" to describe God, they do not mean the same thing Jews, Christians, and Muslims mean by those words.

As I read the many pages of this interesting topic, I saw where someone (forget who now) posed the situation where Our Lady appeared to the six women. She did appear to them, and at Fatima, etc., BUT the difference is She never attempted to change Holy Scriptures or the Gospels, but only reinforced our need to pray for the people of our world, to seek peace, and to worship our Lord, Jesus Christ. She "drew" people to God's commandments, rather than attempting to push them in another direction toward a "new prophet."

I welcome any responses or explanations to my humble post.

God's Peace Always,
DeepwoodsofMaine

Hello DeepwoodsofMaine. Your name conjures up some beautiful images in my mind. Welcome to RF. I just glanced briefly at your post. You seem to be a respectful, tolerant individual who simply doesn't share my beliefs. That's a good enough jumping off point for some good discussions. Unfortunately, I'm leaving for church now and it will be have to be later. Thanks for your post.

 

[Katzpur]

I'm sorry ,but there are so many views and altered views within all the teachings and writings of LDS, even as far back as the founder, what do you expect for onlookers.

I expect them to make the same mistake you have done. Once. I don't expect them to continue to make the same mistake after it has been pointed out to them. I think that's only fair.

Are you really pointing me out alone as the only one who questions the theology of LDS . I mean it's not me that presents differing viewpoints only one who questions them in light of scripture.

Of course you're not the only one. Disagreeing with our theology is one thing. Disagreeing with something that is not our theology, but claiming it is, is something else entirely. You're not the only person we've corrected on points of LDS doctrine. You just seem to be one of the slower learners, that's all.

Yes ,only if it agree's with Joseph Smith, at least according to this article:
The Church News, a Mormon newspaper, carried this statement concerning the Bible: "It is the Word of God. It is not perfect. The prophet Joseph made many corrections in it."March 6, 1983, editorial page).
According to this scripture,It's based on scripture but it certainly remains conditional upon Joseph

You're referring to Joseph Smith's translation of the Bible. There are hundreds of different translations of the Bible out there and there have been dozens of different version of the canon over the years. Which one is right? Which one is complete?

The Book of Mormon echoes this idea in First Nephi 13:26: "... a great and abominable church which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the lamb many parts which are plain and most precious..."
Who is this referring to ?

It's not referring to any denomination in particular, but to any church teaching false doctrines, having drifted away from the truth through apostasy.

Maybe you don't accept this Orson fellow, but is this not what he said:
The apostle Orson Pratt, in his book The Seer says this about the Christian community: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness.

When I get back from Church, I'll find a post which tells you what the LDS Church leadership of Orson Pratt's day had to say about "The Seer." Maybe it will help you understand why such books DO NOT CONTAIN OFFICIAL DOCTRINE.

Shortly after the religious awakening in upstate New York, Joseph Smith had a vision. In the vision he asked God which Christian church he should join. Joseph Smith writes in The Pearl of Great Price: "I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight."I believe that one could safely say that Joseph Smith considered the Christian church to be a false church. Because of this basic premise, the logical conclusion would be, if the church is false, then the source of its doctrine--the Bible--must be false as well. Therefore, one can better understand the motivation behind the eighth article of faith of the Mormon church: "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly."
Do you agree with this profession of Joseph Smith.

Not the way you've put it, no. Again, I don't have time to comment right now.

So they could be true ,but not counted as official doctrine ?
So they are all just opinions than?

Opinions, interpretation, yes.

Are you saying that some of the father's of the faith of the LDS are in question.
I mean I have read the history and the doctrinal alterations of some of your orgainisations leaders.
Understanding,i think requires more than just accepting your personal viewpoint, it takes some order of consistency and logic in the facts of your teachings and writings

I'm saying that no LDS prophet has ever claimed to be infallible. There is also a very specific process that something goes through in order to become doctrine. You don't understand it either, or you wouldn't use the phrase "doctrinal alterations." Doctrines are eternal in nature. Policies are not. You've got a long way to go before you know as much about LDS theology as you think you do. I'd be happy to help you gain that understanding, but only if you can prove to me that you are sincere in wanting to know. So far, I'm not convinced.

 

[DeepShadow]

You might as well not even mention these:

1. The Articles of Faith
2. The Gospel Through the Ages
3. Mormon Doctrine
4. The Journal of Discourses
5. The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith

So they could be true ,but not counted as official doctrine ?
So they are all just opinions than?

Are you saying that some of the father's of the faith of the LDS are in question.
I mean I have read the history and the doctrinal alterations of some of your orgainisations leaders.
Understanding,i think requires more than just accepting your personal viewpoint, it takes some order of consistency and logic in the facts of your teachings and writings

What's the question here? These five books are opinion. They are not LDS doctrine. We've said so before.

 

[roli]

You're referring to Joseph Smith's translation of the Bible. There are hundreds of different translations of the Bible out there and there have been dozens of different version of the canon over the years. Which one is right? Which one is complete?

I have read from various versions of the bible, NKJV, NASB, NIV,KJ, LIVING BIBLE AMPLIFIED and I study the bible using the original greek and hebrew writings to help interpret meaning and accuracy of scripture, along with audience and location, among other things. And while there are many variations and literal translations into other languages, I have not found major doctrinal alterations that would cause a red flag
What I find alot and what sets each book apart from the other is the manner in which things are described , apart from them all being different authors from various walks of life over 1500yrs, they use various words from the greek and hebrew that describe the same thing.
Although 10 yrs ago I found some variations in the NIV when compared with the other versions I was reading and actually wrote to them
to inform them and they actually sent me a book stating why and where these difference appeared.

When I get back from Church, I'll find a post which tells you what the LDS Church leadership of Orson Pratt's day had to say about "The Seer." Maybe it will help you understand why such books DO NOT CONTAIN OFFICIAL DOCTRINE.

That would be great !!

I'm saying that no LDS prophet has ever claimed to be infallible. There is also a very specific process that something goes through in order to become doctrine. You don't understand it either, or you wouldn't use the phrase "doctrinal alterations."

Tell me what process is that ?
I'm also interested in where LDS retrieve their major doctrines , such as Salvation, sin law, righteousness, Holiness, repentance,Jesus,Hell, satan, heaven, marriage, God, Judgment,
I'm sorry,I thought I was clear when I mentioned "doctrinal alterations". It is only when compared with the doctrines of scripture.

 

[roli]

What's the question here? These five books are opinion. They are not LDS doctrine. We've said so before.

So not one word from any of these books are included as official doctrine by the LDS ?


Ok ,as I have asked Katz, where would one go to find the official doctrine of the LDS church.

Such doctrines as, sin law righteousness, Holiness, judgement, repentance,hell, heaven, Jesus ,God , satan .....etc,

 

[Katzpur]

That would be great !!

The Seer, by formal action of the First Presidency and Twelve Apostles of the Church was repudiated, and Elder Orson Pratt himself sanctioned the repudiation. There was a long article published in the Deseret News on the 23rd of August, 1865, over the signatures of the First Presidency and Twelve setting forth that this work--the Seer--together with some other writings of Elder Pratt, were inaccurate. In the course of that document, after praising, as well they might, the great bulk of the work of this noted apostle, they say: "But the Seer, the Great First Cause, the article in the Millennial Star, of Oct. 15, and Nov. 1, 1850 contains doctrine which we cannot sanction and which we have felt to disown, so that the Saints who now live, and who may live hereafter, may not be misled by our silence, or be left to misinterpret it. Where these objectionable works or harts of works are bound in volumes, or otherwise, they should be cut out and destroyed."

 

[roli]

The Seer, by formal action of the First Presidency and Twelve Apostles of the Church was repudiated, and Elder Orson Pratt himself sanctioned the repudiation. There was a long article published in the Deseret News on the 23rd of August, 1865, over the signatures of the First Presidency and Twelve setting forth that this work--the Seer--together with some other writings of Elder Pratt, were inaccurate. In the course of that document, after praising, as well they might, the great bulk of the work of this noted apostle, they say: "But the Seer, the Great First Cause, the article in the Millennial Star, of Oct. 15, and Nov. 1, 1850 contains doctrine which we cannot sanction and which we have felt to disown, so that the Saints who now live, and who may live hereafter, may not be misled by our silence, or be left to misinterpret it. Where these objectionable works or harts of works are bound in volumes, or otherwise, they should be cut out and destroyed."

Ok, let's discuss the BoM and it's doctrine on salvation and sin
Can you provide me with what BoM says concerning these topics.
I know what the bible says, i'd like to compare it for myself and not resort to the numerous articles that do this very thing.
Every verse or reference to salvation and sin that describe what you actually believe.
Than we 'll move on into some other key doctrines, if that's ok

 

[roli]

[

quote=Katzpur;923890]

They are probably contrary to your interpretation of scripture. If that's the case, I can understand why you would reject them.

It's so very easy to make it appear that any who oppose LDS doctrine and express the contradiction of it in light of scripture are interpreting it wrong.

There are countless Christian theologians,professors, world renown preachers ,teachers and scholars of biblical interpretation who feel the same way about the contradictions with the LDS and the BoM.

We little people on this forum who insist on this discrepancy are not totally ignorant of what constitutes a contradiction.

So let's examine some essential doctrine such as what I have already asked for, including the Holy Spirit.

I'll leave it for you to pick a doctrine like salvation and show me what your BoM has to say about it, but lets' use the key verses that LDS use to establish a basis for salvation.

I'll do the same with the bible.

 

[Scott C.]

[

It's so very easy to make it appear that any who oppose LDS doctrine and express the contradiction of it in light of scripture are interpreting it wrong.

There are countless Christian theologians,professors, world renown preachers ,teachers and scholars of biblical interpretation who feel the same way about the contradictions with the LDS and the BoM.

We little people on this forum who insist on this discrepancy are not totally ignorant of what constitutes a contradiction.

So let's examine some essential doctrine such as what I have already asked for, including the Holy Spirit.

I'll leave it for you to pick a doctrine like salvation and show me what your BoM has to say about it, but lets' use the key verses that LDS use to establish a basis for salvation.

I'll do the same with the bible.

I don't know if I'm invited to play. There are so many references to salvation in the Book of Mormon that it's hard to pick one or two. I suggest that you go to this link and look at some of the ocurrences of "salvation" in LDS scripture. You can refine the search by changing "Search in Scriptures" to "Search in Book of Mormon". You'll see about 50 references from the Book of Mormon. You could also change the search to find the word "atonement".

I'd be happy to discuss any of these verses with you.

Word Search: salvation

 

[Katzpur]

I'll leave it for you to pick a doctrine like salvation and show me what your BoM has to say about it, but lets' use the key verses that LDS use to establish a basis for salvation.

I'll do the same with the bible.

Great idea! How about salvation itself.

From 1 Nephi 13: 37 and 40 And blessed are they who shall seek to bring forth my Zion at that day, for they shall have the gift and the power of the Holy Ghost; and if they endure unto the end they shall be lifted up at the last day, and shall be saved in the everlasting kingdom of the Lamb; and whoso shall publish peace, yea, tidings of great joy, how beautiful upon the mountains shall they be.... These last records... shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved.

From 2 Nephi 10:23-25 Therefore, cheer up your hearts, and remember that ye are free to act for yourselves -- to choose the way of everlasting death or the way of eternal life. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved. Wherefore, may God raise you from death by the power of the resurrection, and also from everlasting death by the power of the atonement, that ye may be received into the eternal kingdom of God, that ye may praise him through grace divine.

From 2 Nephi 31:15-16 and 21 And I heard a voice from the Father, saying: Yea, the words of my Beloved are true and faithful. He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved. And now, my beloved brethren, I know by this that unless a man shall endure to the end, in following the example of the Son of the living God, he cannot be saved.... And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end.

From Omni 1:26 And now, my beloved brethren, I would that ye should come unto Christ, who is the Holy One of Israel, and partake of his salvation, and the power of his redemption. Yea, come unto him, and offer your whole souls as an offering unto him, and continue in fasting and praying, and endure to the end; and as the Lord liveth ye will be saved.

From Alma 5: 9-10, 13, and 20-21 And again I ask, were the bands of death broken, and the chains of hell which encircled them about, were they loosed? I say unto you, Yea, they were loosed, and their souls did expand, and they did sing redeeming love. And I say unto you that they are saved. And now I ask of you on what conditions are they saved? Yea, what grounds had they to hope for salvation? What is the cause of their being loosed from the bands of death, yea, and also the chains of hell? And behold, he preached the word unto your fathers, and a mighty change was also wrought in their hearts, and they humbled themselves and put their trust in the true and living God. And behold, they were faithful until the end; therefore they were saved. I say unto you, can ye think of being saved when you have yielded yourselves to become subjects to the devil? I say unto you, ye will know at that day that ye cannot be saved; for there can no man be saved except his garments are washed white; yea, his garments must be purified until they are cleansed from all stain, through the blood of him of whom it has been spoken by our fathers, who should come to redeem his people from their sins.

From Alma 32:13-16 And now, because ye are compelled to be humble blessed are ye; for a man sometimes, if he is compelled to be humble, seeketh repentance; and now surely, whosoever repenteth shall find mercy; and he that findeth mercy and endureth to the end the same shall be saved. And now, as I said unto you, that because ye were compelled to be humble ye were blessed, do ye not suppose that they are more blessed who truly humble themselves because of the word? Yea, he that truly humbleth himself, and repenteth of his sins, and endureth to the end, the same shall be blessed -- yea, much more blessed than they who are compelled to be humble because of their exceeding poverty. Therefore, blessed are they who humble themselves without being compelled to be humble; or rather, in other words, blessed is he that believeth in the word of God, and is baptized without stubbornness of heart, yea, without being brought to know the word, or even compelled to know, before they will believe.

From Moroni 7:34-38 And he hath said: Repent all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me, and be baptized in my name, and have faith in me, that ye may be saved. And now, my beloved brethren, if this be the case that these things are true which I have spoken unto you, and God will show unto you, with power and great glory at the last day, that they are true, and if they are true has the day of miracles ceased? Or have angels ceased to appear unto the children of men? Or has he withheld the power of the Holy Ghost from them? Or will he, so long as time shall last, or the earth shall stand, or there shall be one man upon the face thereof to be saved? Behold I say unto you, Nay; for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief, and all is vain. For no man can be saved, according to the words of Christ, save they shall have faith in his name; wherefore, if these things have ceased, then has faith ceased also; and awful is the state of man, for they are as though there had been no redemption made.

From Moroni 10:21-26 Wherefore, there must be faith; and if there must be faith there must also be hope; and if there must be hope there must also be charity. And except ye have charity ye can in nowise be saved in the kingdom of God; neither can ye be saved in the kingdom of God if ye have not faith; neither can ye if ye have no hope. And if ye have no hope ye must needs be in despair; and despair cometh because of iniquity. And Christ truly said unto our fathers: If ye have faith ye can do all things which are expedient unto me. And now I speak unto all the ends of the earth -- that if the day cometh that the power and gifts of God shall be done away among you, it shall be because of unbelief. And wo be unto the children of men if this be the case; for there shall be none that doeth good among you, no not one. For if there be one among you that doeth good, he shall work by the power and gifts of God. And wo unto them who shall do these things away and die, for they die in their sins, and they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God; and I speak it according to the words of Christ; and I lie not.

 

[roli]

I don't know if I'm invited to play. There are so many references to salvation in the Book of Mormon that it's hard to pick one or two. I suggest that you go to this link and look at some of the ocurrences of "salvation" in LDS scripture. You can refine the search by changing "Search in Scriptures" to "Search in Book of Mormon". You'll see about 50 references from the Book of Mormon. You could also change the search to find the word "atonement".

I'd be happy to discuss any of these verses with you.

Word Search: salvation

Well ,let's make this a little easier for me pretending that I am not saved and your trying to tell me how to go about it.
I would like you to help by referring me to specific verses only in BoM that show the essence of what you believe regarding salvation.
I don't need every verse that mentions the word "salvation" but ones that point to the requirements for salvation

 

[roli]

Great idea! How about salvation itself.

From 1 Nephi 13: 37 and 40 And blessed are they who shall seek to bring forth my Zion at that day, for they shall have the gift and the power of the Holy Ghost; and if they endure unto the end they shall be lifted up at the last day, and shall be saved in the everlasting kingdom of the Lamb; and whoso shall publish peace, yea, tidings of great joy, how beautiful upon the mountains shall they be.... These last records... shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved.

From 2 Nephi 10:23-25 Therefore, cheer up your hearts, and remember that ye are free to act for yourselves -- to choose the way of everlasting death or the way of eternal life. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved. Wherefore, may God raise you from death by the power of the resurrection, and also from everlasting death by the power of the atonement, that ye may be received into the eternal kingdom of God, that ye may praise him through grace divine.

From 2 Nephi 31:15-16 and 21 And I heard a voice from the Father, saying: Yea, the words of my Beloved are true and faithful. He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved. And now, my beloved brethren, I know by this that unless a man shall endure to the end, in following the example of the Son of the living God, he cannot be saved.... And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end.

From Omni 1:26 And now, my beloved brethren, I would that ye should come unto Christ, who is the Holy One of Israel, and partake of his salvation, and the power of his redemption. Yea, come unto him, and offer your whole souls as an offering unto him, and continue in fasting and praying, and endure to the end; and as the Lord liveth ye will be saved.

From Alma 5: 9-10, 13, and 20-21 And again I ask, were the bands of death broken, and the chains of hell which encircled them about, were they loosed? I say unto you, Yea, they were loosed, and their souls did expand, and they did sing redeeming love. And I say unto you that they are saved. And now I ask of you on what conditions are they saved? Yea, what grounds had they to hope for salvation? What is the cause of their being loosed from the bands of death, yea, and also the chains of hell? And behold, he preached the word unto your fathers, and a mighty change was also wrought in their hearts, and they humbled themselves and put their trust in the true and living God. And behold, they were faithful until the end; therefore they were saved. I say unto you, can ye think of being saved when you have yielded yourselves to become subjects to the devil? I say unto you, ye will know at that day that ye cannot be saved; for there can no man be saved except his garments are washed white; yea, his garments must be purified until they are cleansed from all stain, through the blood of him of whom it has been spoken by our fathers, who should come to redeem his people from their sins.

From Alma 32:13-16 And now, because ye are compelled to be humble blessed are ye; for a man sometimes, if he is compelled to be humble, seeketh repentance; and now surely, whosoever repenteth shall find mercy; and he that findeth mercy and endureth to the end the same shall be saved. And now, as I said unto you, that because ye were compelled to be humble ye were blessed, do ye not suppose that they are more blessed who truly humble themselves because of the word? Yea, he that truly humbleth himself, and repenteth of his sins, and endureth to the end, the same shall be blessed -- yea, much more blessed than they who are compelled to be humble because of their exceeding poverty. Therefore, blessed are they who humble themselves without being compelled to be humble; or rather, in other words, blessed is he that believeth in the word of God, and is baptized without stubbornness of heart, yea, without being brought to know the word, or even compelled to know, before they will believe.

From Moroni 7:34-38 And he hath said: Repent all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me, and be baptized in my name, and have faith in me, that ye may be saved. And now, my beloved brethren, if this be the case that these things are true which I have spoken unto you, and God will show unto you, with power and great glory at the last day, that they are true, and if they are true has the day of miracles ceased? Or have angels ceased to appear unto the children of men? Or has he withheld the power of the Holy Ghost from them? Or will he, so long as time shall last, or the earth shall stand, or there shall be one man upon the face thereof to be saved? Behold I say unto you, Nay; for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief, and all is vain. For no man can be saved, according to the words of Christ, save they shall have faith in his name; wherefore, if these things have ceased, then has faith ceased also; and awful is the state of man, for they are as though there had been no redemption made.

From Moroni 10:21-26 Wherefore, there must be faith; and if there must be faith there must also be hope; and if there must be hope there must also be charity. And except ye have charity ye can in nowise be saved in the kingdom of God; neither can ye be saved in the kingdom of God if ye have not faith; neither can ye if ye have no hope. And if ye have no hope ye must needs be in despair; and despair cometh because of iniquity. And Christ truly said unto our fathers: If ye have faith ye can do all things which are expedient unto me. And now I speak unto all the ends of the earth -- that if the day cometh that the power and gifts of God shall be done away among you, it shall be because of unbelief. And wo be unto the children of men if this be the case; for there shall be none that doeth good among you, no not one. For if there be one among you that doeth good, he shall work by the power and gifts of God. And wo unto them who shall do these things away and die, for they die in their sins, and they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God; and I speak it according to the words of Christ; and I lie not.

.....just a side note and one thing I often question when I read the BoM doctrine,that is that it resembles so many verses found in scripture.
It's either ironically uncanny, plagiaristic or very repetitive on God's part.
..not to say that this proves God revealed it, because the bible was written prior to the BoM, but that it resembles so many other books of other religions that contain the same similarities......????????.


The verses you have noted are very inspiring, but as I said above, very much the same as found in scritpure. In my experince being confronted by Mormon's, it's a common theme I hear and one they want new converts to hear and that is to recite doctrines that have there basis in scripture.
But when one sits down with a Mormon as I have done we bigin to lay the cards on the table ,we find the the deeper revelation of the Mormon Doctrine.

I noticed you left this verse out indicating "works" as a means to salvation, can you elaborate
2 Nep 25:23 For we labor diligently to write, to apersuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by bgrace that we are saved, after all we can cdo.

......is this doctrine below one you believe or is this and other articles regarding salvation just opinions.
The LDS Third Article of Faith states: "We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel" (Pearl of Great Price: Articles of Faith).

 

[Katzpur]

.....just a side note and one thing I often question when I read the BoM doctrine,that is that it resembles so many verses found in scripture.
It's either ironically uncanny, plagiaristic or very repetitive on God's part.
..not to say that this proves God revealed it, because the bible was written prior to the BoM, but that it resembles so many other books of other religions that contain the same similarities......????????.

This is a classic case of our being damned if we do and damned if we don't. If the Book of Mormon doesn't sound like the Bible, if it teaches a diferent message and uses different words and phrases, it can't be the Christian message because it's a "different gospel." If it does sound like the Bible in that it teaches essentially the same message using many of the same words, it's "ironically uncanny, plariaristic or very repetitive on God's part." To me that sound like we're pretty much screwed either way. I don't know what you're thinking when you use the phrase "ironically uncanny" so you'll have to explain what it is you're saying. If it were a case of plagiarism, you'd find large sections where the passages in both books were virtually identical -- without an explanation for the similarities and without the "more recent" book giving credit to its original source. Neither of these criteria are met. I'm going to go with "it's very repetitive on God's part." Let's assume this is the correct answer. Why do you think God would have bothered to be so repetitive? Maybe it's because He was speaking to an entirely different audience! If a motivational speaker is going to speak to a group of people on the east coast and to another group on the west coast, wouldn't you expect his presentation to be "repetitive"?

The verses you have noted are very inspiring, but as I said above, very much the same as found in scritpure.

What do you think they should sound like? The whole purpose of the Book of Mormon is to teach about Christ, to testify that He is our Savior, and to witness to His divinity. I'm wondering how you think it ought to sound?

In my experince being confronted by Mormon's, it's a common theme I hear and one they want new converts to hear and that is to recite doctrines that have there basis in scripture.

Okay, let me see if I'm understanding you correctly... You're saying that when a Mormon is speaking to a non-Mormon (and therefore a potential convert), we teach doctrines that sound essentially biblical. I believe we'd plead guilty to that charge.

But when one sits down with a Mormon as I have done we bigin to lay the cards on the table ,we find the the deeper revelation of the Mormon Doctrine.

That's right. The Apostle Peter once told Clement of Rome, "The teaching of all doctrine has a certain order: there are some things which must be delivered first, others in the second place, and others in the third, and so on, everything in its order. If these things be delivered in their order they become plain; but if they be brought forward out of order, they will seem to be spoken against reason." We start with the doctrines on which we agree with traditional Christianity. We make sure we're all on the same page. Sometimes we are; at other times we're not. A good example of what I mean is the doctrine of "once saved, always saved." In another thread, I surmised that you believed this doctrine. You said you didn't. A lot of Christians do. Your belief and mine may be more similar in this regard than I had initially suspected. Once we know where we stand in terms of those doctrines that we hold in common, we introduce doctrines that we believe to have been lost in during the Apostasy which took place shortly after the deaths of the Apostles. It's not a matter of our trying to hide these initially. It's just as Peter told Clement, we teach one principle at a time and present our unique doctrines in the context in which they would be best understood by our listeners.

I noticed you left this verse out indicating "works" as a means to salvation, can you elaborate
2 Nep 25:23 For we labor diligently to write, to apersuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by bgrace that we are saved, after all we can cdo.

......is this doctrine below one you believe or is this and other articles regarding salvation just opinions.
The LDS Third Article of Faith states: "We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel" (Pearl of Great Price: Articles of Faith).

I left that verse out, but it was entirely inadvertent. Many of the verses I included stress the importance of obedience to God's commandments. We believe that we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ, but that it must be a living faith, as evidenced by our faithfulness to Him. Also, 2 Nephi 25:23 is often misunderstood as meaning that Christ's grace is extended only as the frosting on the cake, so to speak, when in fact, a better interpretation of that verse would be that we are saved by grace apart from all we can do. In other words, we can do everything in our power to save ourselves, but the bottom line is that nothing we can do is sufficient to save us. We are expected to obey God's commandments and to show our Savior that our faith in Him is real and not just meaningly words, but the bottom line is that it is by grace that we are saved. He will forgive the repentant sinner. He is under no obligation to do so -- hence, the gift is given by grace.

 

[roli]

If the Book of Mormon doesn't sound like the Bible, if it teaches a diferent message and uses different words and phrases, it can't be the Christian message because it's a "different gospel."

This is a classic case of our being damned if we do and damned if we don't.

You said it,I did'nt,I'm just simply noting a fact I have discovered that the verses in the BoM are very similar of that of the bible just worded differently.

If it were a case of plagiarism, you'd find large sections where the passages in both books were virtually identical --

I will work on those similarities just in the verses you sent me.

without an explanation for the similarities and without the "more recent" book giving credit to its original source.

I'm not sure what you mean here "more recent book"

Why do you think God would have bothered to be so repetitive?

I'm realing trying to put my head around that one,I' did'nt say it's identical, it's just got some verses that are the same as in scritpure and then we have the author's thoughts and maybe that's what the discrepencies have been down through the ages with the bible and the bom



...got to go to work

 

[Scott C.]

Well ,let's make this a little easier for me pretending that I am not saved and your trying to tell me how to go about it.
I would like you to help by referring me to specific verses only in BoM that show the essence of what you believe regarding salvation.
I don't need every verse that mentions the word "salvation" but ones that point to the requirements for salvation

Roli, this is a loooong post and will require a few posts. (I hope you read it all carefully).

There are so many scriptures in the Book of Mormon that address salvation, repentance, the atonement, and what it means to “come unto Christ” that it’s hard to decide which few to use right now. But here goes…

This passage establishes the need to be baptized, to receive the Holy Ghost, and to follow Jesus by keeping his commandments:

2 Nephi 31: 5-13

5 And now, if the Lamb of God, he being holy, should have need to be baptized by water, to fulfil all righteousness, O then, how much more need have we, being unholy, to be baptized, yea, even by water!
6 And now, I would ask of you, my beloved brethren, wherein the Lamb of God did fulfil all righteousness in being baptized by water?
7 Know ye not that he was holy? But notwithstanding he being holy, he showeth unto the children of men that, according to the flesh he humbleth himself before the Father, and witnesseth unto the Father that he would be obedient unto him in keeping his commandments.
8 Wherefore, after he was baptized with water the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove.
9 And again, it showeth unto the children of men the straitness of the path, and the narrowness of the gate, by which they should enter, he having set the example before them.
10 And he said unto the children of men: Follow thou me. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, can we follow Jesus save we shall be willing to keep the commandments of the Father?
11 And the Father said: Repent ye, repent ye, and be baptized in the name of my Beloved Son.
12 And also, the voice of the Son came unto me, saying: He that is baptized in my name, to him will the Father give the Holy Ghost, like unto me; wherefore, follow me, and do the things which ye have seen me do.
13 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism—yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel.

(Other passages teach that authority is necessary to baptize).

 

[Scott C.]

This passage describes the process of being made “perfect in Christ” through God’s grace.

Moroni 10: 32, 33

32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.
33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.

This says that if we deny ourselves of ungodliness and love God, then by God’s grace we may be “perfect in Christ”.

In order to be saved, we must be “perfect in Christ”. One meaning is that we must be cleansed and free of the stain of all sin. The passage above says that we attain to this state of perfection in Christ if we deny ourselves of ungodliness and love God. It also says that this perfecting only occurs through the grace of Christ.

So far, we see the need for baptism, receiving the Holy Ghost, denying ourselves of ungodliness, and loving God for the grace of Christ to save us.

The following passage describes how we “retain a remission of our sins” after we have received this remission. This describes what’s expected of us after we enter the path of baptism and loving God:

Mosiah 4: 11, 12

11 And again I say unto you as I have said before, that as ye have come to the knowledge of the glory of God, or if ye have known of his goodness and have tasted of his love, and have received a remission of your sins, which causeth such exceedingly great joy in your souls, even so I would that ye should remember, and always retain in remembrance, the greatness of God, and your own nothingness, and his goodness and long-suffering towards you, unworthy creatures, and humble yourselves even in the depths of humility, calling on the name of the Lord daily, and standing steadfastly in the faith of that which is to come, which was spoken by the mouth of the angel.
12 And behold, I say unto you that if ye do this ye shall always rejoice, and be filled with the love of God, and always retain a remission of your sins; and ye shall grow in the knowledge of the glory of him that created you, or in the knowledge of that which is just and true.

This says that to “retain” a remission of sins (which implies we already received a remission of sins), we must remember the greatness of God and our own nothingness, be humble, call on the name of the Lord, and “stand steadfast in the faith”. If we do these things we will “retain” a remission of our sins.

We now see that after we have entered the path through baptism and received a remission of sins, we must maintain certain attitudes and behaviors to retain the remission of sins. It is through God’s grace that he grants and maintains a remission of our sins.

 

[Scott C.]

Here are more passages on grace and how works relate to grace.

2 Nephi 10: 23-25

23 Therefore, cheer up your hearts, and remember that ye are free to act for yourselves—to choose the way of everlasting death or the way of eternal life.
24 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.
25 Wherefore, may God raise you from death by the power of the resurrection, and also from everlasting death by the power of the atonement, that ye may be received into the eternal kingdom of God, that ye may praise him through grace divine. Amen.

2 Nephi 25: 23

23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

We must try. We must do all we can do. But, in the final analysis, everybody sins and falls short. No matter how hard we try, we can’t make ourselves “good enough” for heaven. But, God expects that we have the right heart and attitude, which means we are trying to keep his commandments. If we are doing that much, then God fills the huge gap between where we are and where we need to be. He forgives all sin. He makes us “perfect in Christ”. He makes us “holy and without spot”. Grace is essential for this.

 

[Scott C.]

The concept of a “broken heart and contrite spirit” is essential to salvation. Here are some passages:

3 Nephi 9:14-22 (The words of Jesus Christ to the Book of Mormon people)

14 Yea, verily I say unto you, if ye will come unto me ye shall have eternal life. Behold, mine arm of mercy is extended towards you, and whosoever will come, him will I receive; and blessed are those who come unto me.
15 Behold, I am Jesus Christ the Son of God. I created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are. I was with the Father from the beginning. I am in the Father, and the Father in me; and in me hath the Father glorified his name.
16 I came unto my own, and my own received me not. And the scriptures concerning my coming are fulfilled.
17 And as many as have received me, to them have I given to become the sons of God; and even so will I to as many as shall believe on my name, for behold, by me redemption cometh, and in me is the law of Moses fulfilled.
18 I am the light and the life of the world. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.
19 And ye shall offer up unto me no more the shedding of blood; yea, your sacrifices and your burnt offerings shall be done away, for I will accept none of your sacrifices and your burnt offerings.
20 And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost, even as the Lamanites, because of their faith in me at the time of their conversion, were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not.
21 Behold, I have come unto the world to bring redemption unto the world, to save the world from sin.
22 Therefore, whoso repenteth and cometh unto me as a little child, him will I receive, for of such is the kingdom of God. Behold, for such I have laid down my life, and have taken it up again; therefore repent, and come unto me ye ends of the earth, and be saved.

Many great things are in these verses. I want to point out the need for a “broken heart and contrite” spirit. Jesus taught the people that the Law of Moses was now fulfilled and they should no longer make animal sacrifices. Instead, he instructed them to offer up to God the sacrifice of a “broken heart and contrite spirit”.

I believe that people with a broken heart and contrite spirit are humble. They want to obey God and they try to obey God. They have a repentant spirit or attitude. This is what God wants from us. Such people still sin, but not with disregard for their sins. They recognize their mistakes and try to not repeat the same mistakes. Because of this attitude and effort, the grace of God is sufficient for them and they are saved.

 

[Scott C.]

One last scripture on this concept, which I really like:

2 Nephi 2:6-9

6 Wherefore, redemption cometh in and through the Holy cMessiah; for he is full of grace and truth.
7 Behold, he offereth himself a sacrifice for sin, to answer the ends of the law, unto all those who have a broken heart and a contrite spirit; and unto none else can the ends of the law be answered.
8 Wherefore, how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah, who layeth down his life according to the flesh, and taketh it again by the power of the Spirit, that he may bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, being the first that should rise.
9 Wherefore, he is the firstfruits unto God, inasmuch as he shall make intercession for all the children of men; and they that believe in him shall be saved.

Notice verse 7. It says the atonement answers the ends of the law to all those with a broken heart and contrite spirit. It also says that unto none else can the ends of the law be answered.

The law requires punishment for sin. Without the atonement, we’re all subject to the ends of the law. Without the atonement none of us can escape everlasting punishment as dictated by the law. The atonement, which is a gift of grace, satisfies the law or answers the ends of the law for certain people. Those people will not suffer the consequences of the law which are punishment and eternal damnation (i.e., they are saved). The verse I quoted says that the atonement answers the ends of the law to all those with a broken heart and contrite spirit and to none else.