Why Dont Christians Accept the Book of Mormon as Valid?

[Sola'lor]

Christian Pilgrim so instead of trying to determine what God's will actually is, you would rather preserve the finality of the Bible. What I mean is that you would rather not open Pandora's Box than try to determine if there is more of God's word.

With mormonism, I see eventually everything comes down to the family and man. With Christianity, it is all about GOD and HIS glory and has nothing to do about where I'll be sitting in heaven and what will happen to my relationship to my wife, and how do my children relate to that, and what of all my dead ancestors, etc., etc., etc..? Christianity is a relationship GOD establishes between HIMSELF and man for HIS glory.

Actually I would present that it's not really about family and man. Instead it's about God's Family. We believe we are literally God's children. To me is seems that it would be the other way around that God is neeedy. God would seem really needy if He needs worship and obedience from tiny little specks. But God seems much more loving when it is about His family.

I'm still hoping to get a response to the whole Revelation thing.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

Actually I would present that it's not really about family and man. Instead it's about God's Family. We believe we are literally God's children. To me is seems that it would be the other way around that God is neeedy. God would seem really needy if He needs worship and obedience from tiny little specks. But God seems much more loving when it is about His family.

If all are indeed Heavenly Father's children, why does He decide that some of them are no longer His children at the end of this life? Is being His child dependent upon being obedient to Him? Does He need "obedience from tiny little specks?"


"The sons and daughters are not outside in some other kingdom. The sons and daughters go into the house, belong to the household, have access to the home. ‘In my Father’s house are many mansions’ [John 14:2]. Sons and daughters have access to the home where he dwells, and you cannot receive that access until you go to the temple. Why? Because you must receive certain key words as well as make covenants by which you are able to enter. If you try to get into the house, and the door is locked, how are you going to enter, if you haven’t your key? You get your key in the temple, which will admit you.". - Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 2, p. 40

 

[Watchmen]

If all are indeed Heavenly Father's children, why does He decide that some of them are no longer His children at the end of this life? Is being His child dependent upon being obedient to Him? Does He need "obedience from tiny little specks?"


"The sons and daughters are not outside in some other kingdom. The sons and daughters go into the house, belong to the household, have access to the home. ‘In my Father’s house are many mansions’ [John 14:2]. Sons and daughters have access to the home where he dwells, and you cannot receive that access until you go to the temple. Why? Because you must receive certain key words as well as make covenants by which you are able to enter. If you try to get into the house, and the door is locked, how are you going to enter, if you haven’t your key? You get your key in the temple, which will admit you.". - Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 2, p. 40

You realize our "version" of Heaven is much more inclusive than yours, right? I'm also wondering why you always insist on using tiny, tiny font whenever you quote LDS sources???

We are all his children because he is the creator of our Spirits. Just because we may not end up in the Celestial Kingdom does not mean we stop being his children.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

You realize our "version" of Heaven is much more inclusive than yours, right? I'm also wondering why you always insist on using tiny, tiny font whenever you quote LDS sources???

On my screen all the font is the same. I'm not using tiny, tiny font.

We are all his children because he is the creator of our Spirits. Just because we may not end up in the Celestial Kingdom does not mean we stop being his children.

Well, did you read the quote from Doctrines of Salvation? If you disagree, tell us why a loving Heavenly Father would separate some of His children from Himself for eternity.

"The sons and daughters are not outside in some other kingdom. The sons and daughters go into the house, belong to the household, have access to the home. ‘In my Father’s house are many mansions’ [John 14:2]. Sons and daughters have access to the home where he dwells, and you cannot receive that access until you go to the temple. Why? Because you must receive certain key words as well as make covenants by which you are able to enter. If you try to get into the house, and the door is locked, how are you going to enter, if you haven’t your key? You get your key in the temple, which will admit you.". - Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 2, p. 40

 

[Sola'lor]

I don't think He seperates Himself from some of us. We seperate ourselves from Him. He always remains the same but it is through our own wickedness that we move further away from Him.

I think that small font may have carried over from the original document. I'm not sure though.

 

[LittleNipper]

How did your post further clarify the title of the last book of the Bible?

Edward

Are you a mormon, Edward? What is being revealed in REVELATION is CHRIST, the coming of HIS earthly kingdom and what CHRIST will bring in the future. What CHRIST will bring is the conclusion of HIStory.

What exactly do you feel needs to be added to GOD's WORD in order to further glorify HIM.

 

[LittleNipper]

Christian Pilgrim so instead of trying to determine what God's will actually is, you would rather preserve the finality of the Bible. What I mean is that you would rather not open Pandora's Box than try to determine if there is more of God's word.





Actually I would present that it's not really about family and man. Instead it's about God's Family. We believe we are literally God's children. To me is seems that it would be the other way around that God is neeedy. God would seem really needy if He needs worship and obedience from tiny little specks. But God seems much more loving when it is about His family.

I'm still hoping to get a response to the whole Revelation thing.

We are HIS created beings. We are not and never will be eternal independent souls. The book of mormon is no Bible.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

I don't think He seperates Himself from some of us. We seperate ourselves from Him. He always remains the same but it is through our own wickedness that we move further away from Him.

In our non-LDS beliefs, the wicked aren't his children. His children will be with Him.

At the final judgment, who makes the decision and assigns each person to a kingdom? If we all choose our own kingdom, the Judge isn't really making the decision; the Judge would simply be asking where we want to go and agreeing with us.

Latter-day Saints believe we are not assigned our eternal kingdom in an arbitrary manner. Our Father in Heaven desires all of his children to dwell with him in the celestial kingdom. However, we would not be happy dwelling there if we had not developed a spirit aligned with the principles associated with that kingdom. While the Lord issues our final judgment, we in effect choose our own eternal dwelling place by the law that we chose to obey in mortality. President Brigham Young taught:

"Some will obey the celestial law [in mortality] and receive of its glory [in eternity], some will abide the terrestrial and some the telestial, and [those who committed the unpardonable sin] will receive no glory."
W. John Walsh, "Heaven and the Degrees of Glory"

I think that small font may have carried over from the original document. I'm not sure though.

I know that on my screen it all looks the same, so I can't really fix something that I can't see. :sorry1: folks.

 

[edward]

Are you a mormon, Edward?

To quote Paul in Romans, "God Forbid." Or more direct, NO, I am not a Mormon and never will be, but what does that have to do with the TITLE of the last book of the Bible, Revelation?

What is being revealed in REVELATION is CHRIST, the coming of HIS earthly kingdom and what CHRIST will bring in the future. What CHRIST will bring is the conclusion of HIStory.

I do NOT disagree with you. I agree that the Book of Revelation is all about Jesus Christ. Do you agree that the title is NOT Revelations? That was the only point I was trying to make. I was not trying to expound or expand on that simple fact. As I said before, why is this so difficult?

What exactly do you feel needs to be added to GOD's WORD in order to further glorify HIM.

Why do you ask me such an absurd question, when you didn't wait for my response about Mormonism? I believe that exactly NOTHING needs to be added to God's word. Why do you want to keep beating this dead horse? Please answer this and it should settle the problem. How were your posts clarifying the title of the Book of Revelation?

Perhaps we should get back to the OP and pay attention to what was said. I never said that ANYTHING should be added or taken from the Bible. I merely corrected some posters mistaken reference to the Book of Revelation. Nothing more - nothing less. Okay?

Edward

 

[LittleNipper]

To quote Paul in Romans, "God Forbid." Or more direct, NO, I am not a Mormon and never will be, but what does that have to do with the TITLE of the last book of the Bible, Revelation?



I do NOT disagree with you. I agree that the Book of Revelation is all about Jesus Christ. Do you agree that the title is NOT Revelations? That was the only point I was trying to make. I was not trying to expound or expand on that simple fact. As I said before, why is this so difficult?



Why do you ask me such an absurd question, when you didn't wait for my response about Mormonism? I believe that exactly NOTHING needs to be added to God's word. Why do you want to keep beating this dead horse? Please answer this and it should settle the problem. How were your posts clarifying the title of the Book of Revelation?

Perhaps we should get back to the OP and pay attention to what was said. I never said that ANYTHING should be added or taken from the Bible. I merely corrected some posters mistaken reference to the Book of Revelation. Nothing more - nothing less. Okay?

Edward

Edward, the fact that people are headed to an eternity believing that churches and their doctrines and additional books provide them with saving abilities is a huge mountain. The fact of whether it is Psalm 23 or the 23rd Psalms or whether the book Revelation was so named in history without an "s" is a mole hill. No one ever went to hell because they accidently used a "s" ----------- get over it. I will not be spending any more time on this particular pet peeve of yours. You were right I was wrong, now move along.

 

[Watchmen]

In our non-LDS beliefs, the wicked aren't his children. His children will be with Him.

At the final judgment, who makes the decision and assigns each person to a kingdom? If we all choose our own kingdom, the Judge isn't really making the decision; the Judge would simply be asking where we want to go and agreeing with us.

Latter-day Saints believe we are not assigned our eternal kingdom in an arbitrary manner. Our Father in Heaven desires all of his children to dwell with him in the celestial kingdom. However, we would not be happy dwelling there if we had not developed a spirit aligned with the principles associated with that kingdom. While the Lord issues our final judgment, we in effect choose our own eternal dwelling place by the law that we chose to obey in mortality. President Brigham Young taught:

"Some will obey the celestial law [in mortality] and receive of its glory [in eternity], some will abide the terrestrial and some the telestial, and [those who committed the unpardonable sin] will receive no glory."
W. John Walsh, "Heaven and the Degrees of Glory"



I know that on my screen it all looks the same, so I can't really fix something that I can't see. :sorry1: folks.

We're splitting hairs. We say we are all God's children because he is the Creator of us all. However, you're right - those who reject Him are not His children. I'll go into detail later.

 

[Christian Pilgrim]

We're splitting hairs. We say we are all God's children because he is the Creator of us all. However, you're right - those who reject Him are not His children. I'll go into detail later.

Please share LDS theology in regards to the doctrine of adoption.

 

[edward]

Edward, the fact that people are headed to an eternity believing that churches and their doctrines and additional books provide them with saving abilities is a huge mountain. The fact of whether it is Psalm 23 or the 23rd Psalms or whether the book Revelation was so named in history without an "s" is a mole hill.

I'm not the one who was making it a mountain. I said in post 2100,
"It is not a salvation matter or anything vitally important. It's just proper and correct. When discussing the the Epistle to the Hebrews we don't shorten it to "Hebrew." If we are going to discuss the bible, let's at least get the names of the books correct."

I believe that my first post on this subject put it in its proper perspective. This would have been so simple if you had read what I said instead of what you thought I said or thought you wanted me to say.

No one ever went to hell because they accidently used a "s"

I never said they did. In fact, I said that it was NOT a salvation issue. (See above and post #2100) Again... if you had only read my post all of this could have been avoided.

----------- get over it.

I was "over it" after my initial post. You're the one who kept wanting to make it a different issue than it was. You even went so far to read into my posts that I wanted the Bible changed and the I was a Mormon. If only you had read what I said ...

I will not be spending any more time on this particular pet peeve of yours.

This is good. My only pet "peeve," as you state it is that I believe the Bible, ALL OF THE BIBLE" is important. From the front cover to the back. I wished that you had felt the same. It appears that your pet "peeve" just might be that someone pointed out something the the Bible that you didn't know or maybe you're just naturally grouchy.

You were right I was wrong

I'm glad that you finally realized the point I was trying to make.

now move along.

Sorry, Charlie. I'm not one of your little underlings that you can just shoo out of the way. I'll post when and how I see fit within the parameters of the OP.

Now perhaps you can get back to the topic and be thankful that you learned something today. How to spell the title of the last book of the Bible.

Edward, the Evangelical "non" Mormon

 

[ἀλήθεια]

We're splitting hairs. We say we are all God's children because he is the Creator of us all. However, you're right - those who reject Him are not His children. I'll go into detail later.

My understanding of LDS teachings(correct me if I'm wrong) is that those who reject LDS teachings and don't partake of all the ordinances are shut out from Heavenly Father's presence for eternity. That would mean that all who interpret the Bible as Greek Orthodox, Roman Catholic, or Evangelical Christians are judged as not being God's children or at least as being somewhat wicked. If LDS believe that all but the Sons of Perdition are God's children, why are so many assigned to kingdoms outside the presence of Heavenly Father?

And if all began as Heavenly Father's children do they still need to be adopted into His real family?

 

[sojourner]

My understanding of LDS teachings(correct me if I'm wrong) is that those who reject LDS teachings and don't partake of all the ordinances are shut out from Heavenly Father's presence for eternity. That would mean that all who interpret the Bible as Greek Orthodox, Roman Catholic, or Evangelical Christians are judged as not being God's children or at least as being somewhat wicked. If LDS believe that all but the Sons of Perdition are God's children, why are so many assigned to kingdoms outside the presence of Heavenly Father?

And if all began as Heavenly Father's children do they still need to be adopted into His real family?

Wait a minute! Everyone who does not accept LDS teachings are wicked? That stands in opposition to the gospels' portrayal of righteousness. Oh, wait. You all can trump the Bible with the BOM. Silly me! So, the BOM is necessary for the rest of us to attain righteousness. And we can only embrace the BOM if we embrace LDS teaching about the BOM. Right smart way to make it impossible for any other Christians to become righteous! Gee, maybe that's why we don't embrace the BOM as valid. Because we can be righteous without all that clap trap.

 

[Katzpur]

Wait a minute! Everyone who does not accept LDS teachings are wicked? That stands in opposition to the gospels' portrayal of righteousness. Oh, wait. You all can trump the Bible with the BOM. Silly me! So, the BOM is necessary for the rest of us to attain righteousness. And we can only embrace the BOM if we embrace LDS teaching about the BOM. Right smart way to make it impossible for any other Christians to become righteous! Gee, maybe that's why we don't embrace the BOM as valid. Because we can be righteous without all that clap trap.

Sojourner, I'm not sure whether you are being sincere or sarcastic in this post. We LDS definitely don't believe that everybody who is not LDS is wicked. I know that's what ἀλήθεια would like everybody to think we believe, but it's definitely not. It's not even close to what we believe.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

Sojourner, I'm not sure whether you are being sincere or sarcastic in this post. We LDS definitely don't believe that everybody who is not LDS is wicked. I know that's what ἀλήθεια would like everybody to think we believe, but it's definitely not. It's not even close to what we believe.

I think it's rude for someone to say "...that's what ἀλήθεια would like everybody to think we believe, but it's definitely not." You don't know me and I don't want anyone to think anything about LDS beliefs except what is true about them. If LDS believe that non-LDS cannot go to Celestial Kingdom because they reject LDS teachings and ordinances, then that is what I want people to know about LDS teachings. If it is contrary to LDS teachings, I want people to know that it is contrary to LDS teachings.

What are the requirements for spending eternity with Heavenly Father?

 

[Katzpur]

I think it's rude for someone to say "...that's what ἀλήθεια would like everybody to think we believe, but it's definitely not."

Frankly, my dear...

You don't know me and I don't want anyone to think anything about LDS beliefs except what is true about them.

Well then why don't you just start talking less and listening more? We don't need you to tell people anything about what we believe. We are perfectly capable of doing so on our own. You have absolutely nothing of value to add to a discussion about LDS doctrine.

If LDS believe that non-LDS cannot go to Celestial Kingdom because they reject LDS teachings and ordinances, then that is what I want people to know about LDS teachings. If it is contrary to LDS teachings, I want people to know that it is contrary to LDS teachings.

The way you have presented it, it is contrary to LDS teachings. A great deal can happen in the Spirit World. In the end, it's not going to be a matter of LDS versus non-LDS. There are millions upon millions of non-LDS people living in the world today who are going to end up in the Celestial Kingdom and proportionately just as many LDS people who will not end up in the Celestial Kingdom. It doesn't work the way you're describing it.

What are the requirements for spending eternity with Heavenly Father?

Keep His commandments.

 

[sojourner]

Sojourner, I'm not sure whether you are being sincere or sarcastic in this post. We LDS definitely don't believe that everybody who is not LDS is wicked. I know that's what ἀλήθεια would like everybody to think we believe, but it's definitely not. It's not even close to what we believe.

You know me better than that! Of course it's sarcastic. But it shows just how absurd any thinking can be that's too far off-center.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

The way you have presented it, it is contrary to LDS teachings. A great deal can happen in the Spirit World. In the end, it's not going to be a matter of LDS versus non-LDS. There are millions upon millions of non-LDS people living in the world today who are going to end up in the Celestial Kingdom and proportionately just as many LDS people who will not end up in the Celestial Kingdom. It doesn't work the way you're describing it.
Keep His commandments.

This is what I've gleaned from my studies(again, correct me if I'm wrong):
In the Spirit World, the gospel (LDS version which LDS claim is not their version, but the Lord’s) is presented by worthy LDS to those who were not righteous enough to make it to Paradise but were instead sent to Spirit Prison. The unrighteous LDS will not need to hear it because they already heard it in this life. Spirit Prison is a temporary hell which gives people the opportunity to either suffer and repent or suffer and not repent.

Those people who accept the LDS gospel will need proxy temple work done on their behalf on earth because the ordinances cannot be done in Spirit Prison. However, Doctrine and Covenants 132, verse 18 says:
"...when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God."

Doctrine and Covenants 132
15 Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world.

16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

18 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that covenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God.

19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.

20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain to this glory.

22 For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.

23 But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that where I am ye shall be also.

24 This is eternal lives—to know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.

25 Broad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the deaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they receive me not, neither do they abide in my law.

26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God.

27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord.

James E. Talmage wrote:
In the merciful providence of the Almighty, provision has been made for vicarious service by the living for the dead, in the ordinances essential to salvation; so that all who in the spirit-world accept the word of God as preached to them, develop true faith in Jesus Christ as the one and only Savior, and contritely repent of their transgressions, shall be brought under the saving effect of baptism by water for the remission of sins, and be recipients of the baptism of the Spirit or the bestowal of the Holy Ghost.
James E. Talmage, Jesus the Christ, p. 675

The unrighteous LDS are pretty much up a creek:
"The assumption that the gracious assurance given by Christ to the penitent sinner on the cross was a remission of the man’s sins, and a passport into heaven, is wholly contrary to both the letter and spirit of scripture, reason, and justice. Confidence in the efficacy of death-bed professions and confessions on the basis of this incident is of the most insecure foundation. The crucified malefactor manifested both faith and repentance; his promised blessing was that he should that day hear the gospel preached in paradise; in the acceptance or rejection of the word of life he would be an agent unto himself. The requirement of obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel as an essential to salvation was not waived, suspended, or superseded in his case."
James E. Talmage, Jesus the Christ, Chapter 36, p. 677

Does the following apply to only LDS or to all men?
Book of Mormon, Alma 34
32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.
33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.