Why Dont Christians Accept the Book of Mormon as Valid?

[Bishka]

Well... that's easier said than done.... I could ask you half a dozen simple questions about Christ and from that we could spend weeks going over every detail if you had ANY interest in teaching me your faith.

Only if you had a problem with it. Jesus Christ is actually very simple to me. Powerful, amazing, yet simple.

All that rigorous training in primary and in your wards-----> not exactly simple. Right?

I don't remember anything complex about it.:sarcastic

 

[Scott1]

Only if you had a problem with it. Jesus Christ is actually very simple to me. Powerful, amazing, yet simple.

OK... who is Jesus and why is he powerful?

Why is he amazing?

Please, just simple answers that would help someone understand and want to be a part of your faith.

 

[Bathsheba]

Well.... yes... more complicated, that is.

I'm wondering WHY Jesus is their lord and savior... it relates to the question of WHO Jesus was... his nature or being.... there is a LDS answer and a orthodox Christian answer -------- and the difference in the answer is the reason orthodox Christians do not recognize the faith of the LDS as "Christian".

Oh, right, I remember this now. For many non-LDS Christians it is a matter of how Christ is described. The other thing that comes to mind is the whole bit about grace, that is, as I recall, a huge sticking point with folks born-again.

Here's a question for ya. Actually, this might be a better question for a Christian that talks mostly about grace, but maybe you'll dig it. So, Jesus understands that you are human, flawed, imperfect, etc. Clearly there isn't universal agreement on the nature of jesus but there does seem to be a agreement that Jesus Saves. I mean, doesn't every Christian agree on that? So like, if Jesus can save a Catholic after she has had an abortion following her confession/repentance/etc. why can't Jesus save her if she doesn't quite understand his true nature? I mean why should an intellectual construct get in the way of the saving grace? It just seems silly that Jesus couldn't save you just because you didn't get a passing grade on catechism.

 

[DeepShadow]

I'm wondering WHY Jesus is their lord and savior...

Okay, Scott, I'll bite, but only because I trust you to be honest about this.

We believe that Christ was/is "the Father of Heaven and Earth, the creator of all things from the beginning" (Mosiah 3:8). We believe that everyone will be called "before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God..." (Alma 11:44)

But we believe they are one in a Godhead, you believe they are one in a Trinity. Our 3-in-1 is not your 3-in-1, therefore our Christ is different than yours...therefore our Christianity is different from Trinitarian Christianity. And for that, we are not Christian, by your definition.

If I ever had to build a definition of Christianity, it would be more about seeking for the truth than having it all, because an open canon admits there's more to find. It may clarify things that have come before. It's a grand adventure, and I believe we're both on it, Scott. I believe you are seeking, and that's enough to make you Christian in my book.

Line upon line, precept upon precept...do you honestly think you know everything there is to know about the identity of Christ? And if your information is incomplete, how can you say that the definition of Christian must be based on knowledge of his identity? Isn't it possible that you have the tail of the elephant, and I have the trunk? As one blind man to another, I'd much prefer to feel out the rest of the creature together than fight without about who's holding the snake.

 

[Bishka]

OK... who is Jesus and why is he powerful?

Why is he amazing?

Please, just simple answers that would help someone understand and want to be a part of your faith.

He is our Elder Brother who died for us so we can return to the Father.


That's not so complicated, now is it?

 

[DeepShadow]

He is our Elder Brother who died for us so we can return to the Father.


That's not so complicated, now is it?

Of course not, but that's only one of the many callings of Christ. Sometimes I think we get so caught up in fights with Trinitarians that we lose track of our own doctrine, especially how it may coincide with theirs.

1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.
2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—
3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—
4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.
5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.

Isaiah sounds practically Trinitarian, as does Amulek.

I doubt the scriptures currently available have more than half of the calling of Christ spelled out in them. We're often accused of diminishing the role of Christ, let's not actually start doing it.

 

[Scott1]

So like, if Jesus can save a Catholic after she has had an abortion following her confession/repentance/etc. why can't Jesus save her if she doesn't quite understand his true nature? I mean why should an intellectual construct get in the way of the saving grace? It just seems silly that Jesus couldn't save you just because you didn't get a passing grade on catechism.

What a wonderful question.... I'm glad we have this chance to chat.... don't think we've done so before... so welcome to RF from the Catholic welcome wagon!

Ok.. onward.

It is not a matter of knowledge... not a matter of intellectual contructs in our theology.... that would be the heresy of Gnosis..... but we're talking about TWO DIFFERENT things:
1. What is the true nature of Christ?
2. How is a person justified/saved/etc. ?

The Church has a duty to seek out and define the truth about Jesus Christ.... an individual has a duty as well to seek out that truth, but we believe that those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens (students), and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, can be saved.

 

[DeepShadow]

1. What is the true nature of Christ?
2. How is a person justified/saved/etc. ?

I don't think anyone on earth can fully answer either question, at least fully enough to exclude others from differing answers. Hence my problem with people saying someone else isn't Christian.

 

[Scott1]

Okay, Scott, I'll bite, but only because I trust you to be honest about this.

Gonna make me cry man.... love you....(lump in throat).... we can get through this thread together!

But we believe they are one in a Godhead, you believe they are one in a Trinity. Our 3-in-1 is not your 3-in-1, therefore our Christ is different than yours...therefore our Christianity is different from Trinitarian Christianity. And for that, we are not Christian, by your definition.

Correct... but to be clear...again... I don't claim to direct this at individuals, but simply about the faith in general... I know that's a copout, but I'm not worthy to judge you or anyone... I'm just a sinner like you.... to further clarify, it's not "my" definition alone, it is that of the Roman Catholic Church and several of the Eastern Orthodox Churches.

It's a grand adventure, and I believe we're both on it, Scott. I believe you are seeking, and that's enough to make you Christian in my book.

Amen brother...well said..... all we can do is love our neighbor----even when we disagree---- and strive to do the will of God.

Line upon line, precept upon precept...do you honestly think you know everything there is to know about the identity of Christ?

No... but I trust that I know the basics.... and that is the point of our disagrement.

 

[Scott1]

He is our Elder Brother who died for us so we can return to the Father.

Elder brother.... you have the same biological mother?

Is he your physical ancestor?

How could your older brother help you return to the Father?

If my older brother Jamie dies, will he get me to God?

Why did he have to die so you can return?

What did you do so wrong that you can't get to the Father on your own?

That's not so complicated, now is it?

You tell me.

 

[DeepShadow]

No... but I trust that I know the basics.... and that is the point of our disagrement.

Then you have one up on me. I'm still working on the basics. I honestly cannot reconcile Abinidi's teachings with Amulek's or others, but I'm trying.

Glad for the clarification that this is about churches, not individuals.

 

[Scott1]

Then you have one up on me. I'm still working on the basics. I honestly cannot reconcile Abinidi's teachings with Amulek's or others, but I'm trying.

Then why be a Christian if you don't even know who he is?

I don't get it.

Glad for the clarification that this is about churches, not individuals.

No problem bro... your other LDS friends are so darn mean and angry, I want to make sure I at least have you to chat with!

 

[Bishka]

You tell me.

Like I stated before, Jesus Christ is only complicated if you make Him that way.

 

[Scott1]

Like I stated before, Jesus Christ is only complicated if you make Him that way.

Gonna answer my questions?

 

[DeepShadow]

Then why be a Christian if you don't even know who he is?

I know enough for now. I know that Christianity--and LDS Christianity in particular--has more of what I understand to be truth than any of the alternatives. I know that Christ is...bigger...than me...and that He loves me. As long as I don't put it into words, I'm usually okay. Sometimes the open canon is like staring into a bottomless pit, it makes you dizzy.

:rainbow1::rainbow1::rainbow1::rainbow1::rainbow1::rainbow1::rainbow1::rainbow1:

No problem bro... your other LDS friends are so darn mean and angry, I want to make sure I at least have you to chat with!

Be patient with us, we're use to, "You aren't Christian" leading in a different direction.

 

[Scott1]

I know enough for now. I know that Christianity--and LDS Christianity in particular--has more of what I understand to be truth than any of the alternatives. I know that Christ is...bigger...than me...and that He loves me. As long as I don't put it into words, I'm usually okay. Sometimes the open canon is like staring into a bottomless pit, it makes you dizzy.

Well said....

Be patient with us, we're use to, "You aren't Christian" leading in a different direction.

Ummmm... nearly 7000 posts here... if they don't know me by now, they NEVER will.... some people just can't talk things out.... glad you're not one of them.

Great talking with you,
S

 

[madhatter85]

A lot of people think that Christ is complex, but he is not, It is his atonement that may seem hard to comprehend, ( i had a hard time explaining it to my wife, but we finally nailed it in The Plan Of Salvation: Understanding our Divine Origin and Destiny.) In that book,the Atonement is about 6 pages long describing how it works and how it applies to each one of us. The atonement is at the core of our Heavenly Father's plan for us. Once you understand how it works, it is actually quite simple. Explaining it fully is the difficult part as you have to understand a lot of other parts of the plan for it to make sense.

The main difference i see is their emphasis on the cross and/or crucifixion. This is not when Christ took upon the sins of the world, He did that in Gethsemane. The Bible says the word Atonement once, the Book of Mormon has the word 38 (i think that's accurate) times.

Your message is of a dead Christ, dying for our sins.

Our message is of a living Christ who was resurrected on the 3rd day following his death.

Our Christ was not a different person, you just choose to emphasize the wrong part of his life and his divine role in our salvation.

 

[Scott1]

Your message is of a dead Christ, dying for our sins.

Who are you speaking to?

If you have directed this at me your are dead wrong..... (pun intended )..... if you'd care to learn what I actually believe, just let me know.

Our Christ was not a different person, you just choose to emphasize the wrong part of his life and his divine role in our salvation.

Again... let me know if it is me your trying to jam words into and I'll teach you what I really believe.

 

[Bathsheba]

What a wonderful question.... I'm glad we have this chance to chat.... don't think we've done so before... so welcome to RF from the Catholic welcome wagon!

Ok.. onward.

It is not a matter of knowledge... not a matter of intellectual contructs in our theology.... that would be the heresy of Gnosis..... but we're talking about TWO DIFFERENT things:
1. What is the true nature of Christ?
2. How is a person justified/saved/etc. ?

The Church has a duty to seek out and define the truth about Jesus Christ.... an individual has a duty as well to seek out that truth, but we believe that those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens (students), and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, can be saved.

Thank you for the warm welcome Scott1.

You wrote: "but we believe that those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens (students), and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, can be saved."

Forgive my ignorance of your beliefs, but I don't see where it says here that I need to understand Christ's true nature to be saved. And I assume that the people getting saved are Christians.

Couldn't a Mormon or a JW or a Baptist fit in with this definition? I imagine that folks from these churches might have occasion to die for the faith (I admit that I don’t know what that means), and that they are students of the bible, and they don’t know that the Catholic church is Gods preferred vehicle for dispensing the true nature of Christ - but Christ does bless them with his grace, they do seek god sincerely and they do strive to fulfill his will. If that is the case then they are saved, and in the end it doesn’t really matter if we called them Christians or if they understood the true nature of Christ.

I have never heard of this, "the heresy of Gnosis", that sounds interesting.

eta: I am a part time atheist and part time agnostic (which just means I'm wishy washy). I enter the discussion because I want to look at other people's points of view. Plus, I like inserting my point of view every now and then. *cough, cough*

 

[Reverend Rick]

If you apply the same amount of scrutiny to the story of Jesus as you did Joseph Smith, you would achieve the same results. Where are the 10 comandments? Oh yeah, Moses destroyed them when he got upset with folks dancing naked around a golden calf. I wonder where the golden calf is?

Faith is hard for some people to grasp. I look at the result of what I see. LDS people are model citizens in my opinion. I see them living clean lives and holding high moral values. I am at odds with them with where heaven is and how one gets there and I am fascinated with them baptising the dead.

So What! How do I know I am right? All I know is I see good people who walk the walk, not just talk the talk. Mormons have my total respect.