Why don't we admit the fault of victims?

[Quintessence]

Please give a scenario in which it is the victims fault they got raped.

As I've mentioned throughout this thread, I don't play the blame/fault game, I look at factors that contributed to the situation, and I won't ignore a factor merely because it happens to be centered on targets of crimes. We know for a fact that alcohol is involved in many rape cases because it impairs/alters our judgement. If we choose to take substances that inhibit our ability to provide informed consent, that's in our ballpark, not in the perpetrator's. Of course, it's not that simple; webs of causation never are. For example, drinking behavior is mediated by social factors; the target might have been subjected to significant cultural or peer pressure to drink. Therefore, cultural norms and peer groups are an important factor. A person arguably has at least some control over the company they keep, so a fraction of that social factor can come back on the target. It's also possible the perpetrator spiked the drink to facilitate their crime, placing another causal factor on their end. Poor communication or poor communication skills - which can occur or exist on both sides - is yet another consideration.

Point is, risk factors can (and do) come from anywhere, and I refuse to ignore a factor simply because it can fall within the target's court. There's no sense in that to me. I'm too much a scientist by training to deliberately ignore something for the sake of emotional sensitivity or political correctness; that would compromise my objectivity and impartiality. Identify possible factors, gather data, analyze and determine the fractional contribution of each. Observe everything, test everything, consider everything.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Point is, risk factors can (and do) come from anywhere, and I refuse to ignore a factor simply because it can fall within the target's court. There's no sense in that to me. I'm too much a scientist by training to deliberately ignore something for the sake of emotional sensitivity or political correctness; that would compromise my objectivity and impartiality. Identify possible factors, gather data, analyze and determine the fractional contribution of each. Observe everything, test everything, consider everything.

Yeah, but why do you feel the need to blame the victim?

 

[oldbadger]

Face it. You secretly so want to join that thread for two reasons:

1) It has bacon in it
2) You could post limericks

Bacon is bad for his digestion.
His limericks as so bad they came from Donegal.

 

[Quintessence]

Yeah, but why do you feel the need to blame the victim?

For the love of...

What part of "I don't play the blame/fault game" are people failing to understand? Do I need to put that in bright red letters and size forty font or something? I'm interested in fully understanding all factors that played into a situation, not simplistic, black-and-white dualistic "he's right and she's wrong, she's good and he's evil" nonsense that goes along with blame game posturing and chest-beating.

I apologize for the abrasiveness; I'm just getting quite tired of repeating this point, especially when it's explicitly stated in the first few lines of the post you happened to responded to. >_>

 

[Alceste]

For the love of...

What part of "I don't play the blame/fault game" are people failing to understand? Do I need to put that in bright red letters and size forty font or something? I'm interested in fully understanding all factors that played into a situation, not simplistic, black-and-white dualistic "he's right and she's wrong, she's good and he's evil" nonsense that goes along with blame game posturing and chest-beating.

I apologize for the abrasiveness; I'm just getting quite tired of repeating this point, especially when it's explicitly stated in the first few lines of the post you happened to responded to. >_>

The risk factor in being raped while drunk is drinking with a rapist. Drinking with people who are not rapists is perfectly safe, as long as nobody hops behind the wheel or falls off a bridge. I've got hundreds of empty bottles as evidence.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

For the love of...

What part of "I don't play the blame/fault game" are people failing to understand? Do I need to put that in bright red letters and size forty font or something? I'm interested in fully understanding all factors that played into a situation, not simplistic, black-and-white dualistic "he's right and she's wrong, she's good and he's evil" nonsense that goes along with blame game posturing and chest-beating.

I apologize for the abrasiveness; I'm just getting quite tired of repeating this point, especially when it's explicitly stated in the first few lines of the post you happened to responded to. >_>

Chill out brother - was just a joke.

But seriously, please stop blaming the victim.

 

[Quintessence]

The risk factor in being raped while drunk is drinking with a rapist. Drinking with people who are not rapists is perfectly safe, as long as nobody hops behind the wheel or falls off a bridge. I've got hundreds of empty bottles as evidence.

This is like saying "the" (see note below) risk factor of getting in a car accident is driving around poor drivers. The act of being out on the road and driving is, in of itself, a risk factor regardless of the presence or absence of bad drivers on the road. It's also not dissimilar from claiming "the" risk factor of getting sick is being around sick people. Let's just ignore all the other ways sickness is transmitted and how personal hygiene can be a factor.

Can we move away from language like "the" risk factor as if there's only one? This is the kind of oversimplifying I really have an issue with in examining events. There's no "the" risk factor, there are many, many risk factors. There are also, let's not forget, many many factors that mitigate risks. It's not all about increasing the probabilities, but also decreasing of the probabilities.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

This is like saying "the" (see note below) risk factor of getting in a car accident is driving around poor drivers. The act of being out on the road and driving is, in of itself, a risk factor regardless of the presence or absence of bad drivers on the road. It's also not dissimilar from claiming "the" risk factor of getting sick is being around sick people. Let's just ignore all the other ways sickness is transmitted and how personal hygiene can be a factor.

Can we move away from language like "the" risk factor as if there's only one? This is the kind of oversimplifying I really have an issue with in examining events. There's no "the" risk factor, there are many, many risk factors. There are also, let's not forget, many many factors that mitigate risks. It's not all about increasing the probabilities, but also decreasing of the probabilities.

Yes, but if we simplify it down to one risk factor for rape (i.e., being around rapists), then it's a simple hop, skip, and jump to completely eradicating rape by simply having people no longer be around rapists. Problem solved. So, for everyone out there, don't go near rapists, and then you won't need to worry about being raped.

 

[Quintessence]

Chill out brother - was just a joke.

But seriously, please stop blaming the victim.

And I seriously can't stop doing something I wasn't doing in the first place.

But I can understand how others would perceive it this way.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

And I seriously can't stop doing something I wasn't doing in the first place.

I'm not sure whether you realize I'm joking or not, but blaming the victim really isn't helping anyone.

 

[Quintessence]

Yes, but if we simplify it down to one risk factor for rape (i.e., being around rapists), then it's a simple hop, skip, and jump to completely eradicating rape by simply having people no longer be around rapists. Problem solved. So, for everyone out there, don't go near rapists, and then you won't need to worry about being raped.

Therefore, we need to develop thought-monitoring devices inserted into people's brains. These data can be used to determine potential rapists, and if we combine this with mandatory cyborg implants that can display this information on a screen, we can avoid "the bad people."

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Therefore, we need to develop thought-monitoring devices inserted into people's brains. These data can be used to determine potential rapists, and if we combine this with mandatory cyborg implants that can display this information on a screen, we can avoid "the bad people."

That's certainly one option. However, in the meantime, we can ask them whether they blame the victim in cases of rape. If they say anything other than "no," then you be rest assured that they are a serial rapist who will forcibly cornhole you in the back of their van at the first opportunity. Anyone who says "no" is a safe person who you can be rest assured has never, and will never rape anyone. It's all very scientific and takes advantage of the fact that rapists are always truthful about their misogyny and contempt for women. There has never been a rapist in the history of the world who has used lies to convince women he was a good guy.

 

[Alceste]

This is lithemaying "the" (see note below) risk factor of getting in a car accident is driving around poor drivers. The act of being out on the road and driving is, in of itself, a risk factor regardless of the presence or absence of bad drivers on the road. It's also not dissimilar from claiming "the" risk factor of getting sick is being around sick people. Let's just ignore all the other ways sickness is transmitted and how personal hygiene can be a factor.

Can we move away from language like "the" risk factor as if there's only one? This is the kind of oversimplifying I really have an issue with in examining events. There's no "the" risk factor, there are many, many risk factors. There are also, let's not forget, many many factors that mitigate risks. It's not all about increasing the probabilities, but also decreasing of the probabilities.

I understand that, but focusing on the behavior and dress of victims is a distraction from considering the actual risk, which is that some people are rapists. We should learn how to identify and avoid them. Sobriety is not particularly effective protection, since people are often assaulted while sober.

My point is that it's not about the drinking, it's about who you're drinking WITH. Speaking from my own experience as a woman who is often drunk but almost never attacked, I can still spot and avoid trouble-makers fairly easily when I'm drunk.

Granted, I would have an easier time fending them off sober, but it rarely comes to that since I do not interact with them in the first place.

 

[Alceste]

Yes, but if we simplify it down to one risk factor for rape (i.e., being around rapists), then it's a simple hop, skip, and jump to completely eradicating rape by simply having people no longer be around rapists. Problem solved. So, for everyone out there, don't go near rapists, and then you won't need to worry about being raped.

Sounds pretty effective to me. Don't play with fire and you probably won't get burned. Is there something about learning to identify and avoid aggressive, neurotic people with boundary issues that doesn't make sense to you? If so, what additional steps would you suggest?

For the record, I'm also an advocate of broadcasting that you are not a submissive person, for that tiny minority of assaults that involve strangers jumping out of alleyways or breaking into your house.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Sounds pretty effective to me. Don't play with fire and you probably won't get burned. Is there something about learning to identify and avoid aggressive, neurotic people with boundary issues that doesn't make sense to you? If so, what additional steps would you suggest?

I'd say that the notion of being able to spot rapists isn't as easy or foolproof as you're trying to paint it.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Sounds pretty effective to me. Don't play with fire and you probably won't get burned. Is there something about learning to identify and avoid aggressive, neurotic people with boundary issues that doesn't make sense to you? If so, what additional steps would you suggest?

For your edification regarding the difficulty with profiling rapists, you can peruse the following materials from the Center for Sex Offender Management:

The Etiology of Sexual Offending Behavior and Sex Offender Typology: An Overview

Further materials here: The Etiology of Sexual Offending Behavior and Sex Offender Typology: An Overview, attempt to classify rapists using different methods which highlights the variance in profiles for different types of rapists, making a one-size-fits-all profile impossible.

 

[Quintessence]

I understand that, but focusing on the behavior and dress of victims is a distraction from considering the actual risk, which is that some people are rapists. We should learn how to identify and avoid them. Sobriety is not particularly effective protection, since people are often assaulted while sober.

My point is that it's not about the drinking, it's about who you're drinking WITH. Speaking from my own experience as a woman who is often drunk but almost never attacked, I can still spot and avoid trouble-makers fairly easily when I'm drunk.

Granted, I would have an easier time fending them off sober, but it rarely comes to that since I do not interact with them in the first place.

That's fair. I think the difference here is how much a person regards ancillary implements an important factor. You have your people who will say "guns don't kill people, people do," your people who will attribute gun deaths to the guns themselves, and your people who don't see it as an either-or. I'm one of the people who doesn't see it as an either-or, so I would say it is about the drinking and who you're drinking with. Essentially, the increased risk associated with drinking could be mitigated by the factor of who you are drinking with in some (but not all) cases. They're all part of the mathematical tally, if that makes any sense.

 

[kashmir]

I have been to many many parties in my day, no one has ever raped a passed out girl or guy.
We have drew stuff on their faces though


When school shootings happen, the police do not retrace all the kids days who got killed, nor ask the parents why they didn't home school them.

When a person gets assaulted on the street, they police do not ask them why they took that route instead of a different route or why they wore what they did that day.
Or why they didnt just stay home and go without what ever they were going to the store for.

If someone breaks into someones house and assaults them in their bed, the police do not ask why the person didn't have bars on their window, or why they moved into a bad neighborhood, or even why would a total stranger to them would choose them over anyone else.

So why are these things relevant to some people?

 

[Alceste]

I'd say that the notion of being able to spot rapists isn't as easy or foolproof as you're trying to paint it.

I don't think I've anywhere argued that it is foolproof. Are we not talking about risk reduction? I think we all agree that risk elimination is not possible.

What we disagree on is what is or isn't effective prevention. We've seen evidence that some suggestions, like dressing modestly, actually INCREASE risk. Others, like being aware of your surroundings and projecting confidence effectively reduce it. The way we arrive at effective prevention methods is analyzing the psychology of a rapist, not by analyzing the behavior of a rape victim.

Granted, studies of the psychology of violent people usually involves photo or video analysis of the behavior of potential victims, but without the input of a violent offender, scrutinizing the behavior of random people tells you nothing except what you, personally, do or don't approve of. It does not tell you what an attacker generally prefers.

In some cases, "common sense" advice, like suppressing your sexuality with modest clothing, is actually worse than no advice at all, since it signals submissiveness to potential attackers.

 

[Alceste]

For your edification regarding the difficulty with profiling rapists, you can peruse the following materials from the Center for Sex Offender Management:

The Etiology of Sexual Offending Behavior and Sex Offender Typology: An Overview

Further materials here: The Etiology of Sexual Offending Behavior and Sex Offender Typology: An Overview, attempt to classify rapists using different methods which highlights the variance in profiles for different types of rapists, making a one-size-fits-all profile impossible.

Yes, I've visited that site before in the last rape thread, but I only read this article at that time:
The Etiology of Sexual Offending Behavior and Sex Offender Typology: An Overview

The other one was good too, thanks for the link.

IMO, the author is not saying sex offenders have nothing in common whatsoever, s/he is challenging stereotypes, like the idea that most rapists are horny vagrants lurking in the bushes waiting to jump out at passing joggers.

There is a lot of useful information on the traits sex offenders in general DO tend to have in common if you can get past the fact that the first paragraph seems at first glance to support your position.