Why Evil?

[RedDragon94]

Yet you no doubt love, adore, praise, and worship, this instigator and supporter of evil. Care to explain?

He is not the instigator or supporter of evil. That would be the devil, you, and I. God's judgement is not evil, therefore when he commands the slaughter of his own or of another people group it is because of their sin. Mind you, all morality is found in the creator.

 

[Ingledsva]

Like I said, evil is apart of the plan. God does give the okay for evil to occur, but the devil came to steal kill and destroy. So God is in authority over evil. It gives me comfort.

And AGAIN - It says YHVH himself did these EVIL MURDERS.

Tanakh does not have an evil Satan. That idea came from later Christian contact with other religions.

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[Ingledsva]

Look, you can say that God is evil all you want. But from what I've read God has a good reason for everything he does, even if you can't figure it out. He is infinite, he has an infinite mind, and we are his subjects. Even me, and I've come to love him in spite of all the supposed immorality that he is blamed for. It would be worse if God didn't have authority over sin.

To me - that is a Christian cop-out, so you don't have to actually think about the EVIL your own Bible says your God does, or the EVIL that it says he OKs for his people to do.

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[Ingledsva]

He is not the instigator or supporter of evil. That would be the devil, you, and I. God's judgement is not evil, therefore when he commands the slaughter of his own or of another people group it is because of their sin. Mind you, all morality is found in the creator.

How do you figure that?

The laws supposedly come from him - and they give permission for all kinds of evil acts.

Murder! Slavery! Rape!

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[RedDragon94]

And AGAIN - It says YHVH himself did these EVIL MURDERS.

Tanakh does not have an evil Satan. That idea came from later Christian contact with other religions.

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It isn't as evil as much as vengeful. "Vengeance is mine," (Deuteronomy 32:35) And as I said before if God didn't judge people for their sin he would be an unjust God. You see, God is not the author of sin.

 

[RedDragon94]

To me - that is a Christian cop-out, so you don't have to actually think about the EVIL your own Bible says your God does, or the EVIL that it says he OKs for his people to do.

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Mind you the people of the surrounding nations influenced Israel to commit evils such as child sacrifice and other detestable things.

 

[Ingledsva]

It isn't as evil as much as vengeful. "Vengeance is mine," (Deuteronomy 32:35) And as I said before if God didn't judge people for their sin he would be an unjust God. You see, God is not the author of sin.

Vengeance on someone whom actually did you wrong, - is one thing.

Vengeance against the innocent, - for what OTHERS did, - is called MURDER.

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[Skwim]

He is not the instigator or supporter of evil.

You said "evil is apart of the plan." Whose plan is this if not god's? And if it's not god's plan then why does he allow it? If it is god's plan then he's both the instigator or supporter of evil.
Moreover, you even say "God does give the okay for evil to occur," which certainly indicates support. One doesn't give their okay for stuff they don't support.

God's judgement is not evil,

I don't even know what an evil judgement is.

when he commands the slaughter of his own or of another people group it is because of their sin.

So all those slaughtered babies were so full of sin that they too deserved to die. Interesting.

Mind you, all morality is found in the creator

And considering his affection for evil, so is all immorality.

 

[Ingledsva]

Mind you the people of the surrounding nations influenced Israel to commit evils such as child sacrifice and other detestable things.

1. What would that have to do with God murdering the innocent?

2. The Hebrew themselves had ritual Sacrifice of the Firstborn Son, - no outside influence needed.

3. And obviously they also did other detestable things - again - without any outside influence.

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[RedDragon94]

How do you figure that?

The laws supposedly come from him - and they give permission for all kinds of evil acts.

Murder! Slavery! Rape!

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If by murder you mean stoning. The people that were stoned in the Old Testament were stoned only because they were disobedient. "Rebellion is like the sin of witchcraft" (1 Sam. 15:23) Therefore God had every right to seek out the death of those people. I deserve death and hell every time I sin. Slavery was a way to make a living back then... IMHO It wasn't like the slavery of the 1600s-1800s. As far as rape is concerned, "May he defend the cause of the poor of the people, give deliverance to the children of the needy, and crush the oppressor." (Psalm 72:4)

Vengeance on someone whom actually did you wrong, - is one thing.

Vengeance against the innocent, - for what OTHERS did, - is called MURDER.

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They (humanity) profaned his holy name and they profaned it knowingly. Therefore they deserve to die.

 

[RedDragon94]

2. The Hebrew themselves had ritual Sacrifice of the Firstborn Son, - no outside influence needed.
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I'd like a Bible reference for that.

 

[RedDragon94]

You said "evil is apart of the plan." Whose plan is this if not god's? And if it's not god's plan then why does he allow it? If it is god's plan then he's both the instigator or supporter of evil.
Moreover, you even say "God does give the okay for evil to occur," which certainly indicates support. One doesn't give their okay for stuff they don't support.

I don't even know what an evil judgement is.

So all those slaughtered babies were so full of sin that they too deserved to die. Interesting.

And considering his affection for evil, so is all immorality.

God does not carry out evil. God cannot enjoy evil. It grieves God that evil is apart of the plan. God gives the okay for evil when it works out for the benefit of those who love him. (Now, evil to a human being is enjoyable. We support evil.)

What babies? If you're talking about the Egyptian firstborn, not all of them were children.

God is not bound by his own law. He basically executes his justice on all immorality, even if it's immoral by human standard.

 

[Ingledsva]

If by murder you mean stoning. The people that were stoned in the Old Testament were stoned only because they were disobedient. "Rebellion is like the sin of witchcraft" (1 Sam. 15:23) Therefore God had every right to seek out the death of those people. I deserve death and hell every time I sin. Slavery was a way to make a living back then... IMHO It wasn't like the slavery of the 1600s-1800s. As far as rape is concerned, "May he defend the cause of the poor of the people, give deliverance to the children of the needy, and crush the oppressor." (Psalm 72:4)

They (humanity) profaned his holy name and they profaned it knowingly. Therefore they deserve to die.

I mean exactly what I said - MURDER!

The right to MURDER your own children because you think they are unruly, or drink to much!

The MURDER of people that work on Sabbath! Or that don't attend Temple!

The MURDER of Gay people!

These are all MURDER, - regardless if you say they are from your God.

And I might add - it says to MURDER people like YOU Christians whom proselytize, and try to turn the Hebrew from their religion!

So I guess with your thinking - THIS MURDER OF CHRISTIANS WOULD BE OK? It isn't really murder. because it is one of God's laws?

Is it? Or not? Are you a hypocrite?
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That SLAVERY brings in money, - or it supposedly wasn't the same as later slavery, - which is WRONG - by the way, - does not excuse a supposedly superior being from allowing such human degradation! They could keep slaves forever, pass them on to their children, rape them, breed them to make more slaves, beat them, etc!
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And what does that last sentence have to do with his laws allowing rape?

I have posted the verses many times.

You know the ones, - for instance, - the one that's says if you see a hot captive and desire her, - you take her home - let her scream for her dead family for 30 days, - and then you can Scr*w her!

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[RedDragon94]

It wasn't like they just killed off their children the first time they acted out. The whole nation would be gone if that were the case. People who did not observe the Sabbath were murdered because they disobeyed God. Religion was the backbone of the society. Do you think that it's important to be involved? Gay people carry diseases which is the reason why it was commanded in the first place that it should not happen and that those people should be killed. My God is superior... no other way around it... no matter what you say, no matter what you do. I know, we (Christians) underwent persecution for our beliefs and obedience to God, we count it as an honor to undergo persecution for the Messiah of the world. Or do you watch the news? If any of us are killed we are sealed in Christ and heaven is our home. Not earth, therefore I don't care what you think about me because we're not of the same family. My God is once again superior. Not you. There was a limit to the terms of service a slave could work and then they were released unless they wanted to stay. Is rape oppressive? If so then that verse tells you what God thinks about the act of it. He longs to crush the oppressor under his feet. By the way, did I mention my God is superior to whatever type of morality we can conjure up in our mind?

 

[Ingledsva]

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2. The Hebrew themselves had ritual Sacrifice of the Firstborn Son, - no outside influence needed.

I'd like a Bible reference for that.

Why do we have the Isaac story if Human sacrifice had not been performed by the Hebrew?

Why the reference to “PASSING OVER” the Hebrew children – and killing the first born of the Egyptians instead?

Why the first born belonging to god and not being redeemable references?

Or that it wasn't odd to the writers that Jephthah would say he would SACRIFICE the first person out of his door? It turned out to be his daughter.
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EZEKIEL 20:25-26 Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good and ordinances whereby they should not live; and I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they set apart all that openeth the womb (First Born), that I might destroy them, to the end that they might know that I am the Lord.

Exodus 22: 29 –Thou shalt not delay TO OFFER the FIRST of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: THE FIRSTBORN OF THY SONS SHALT THOU GIVE UNTO ME.

Leviticus 27: 28, 29 Notwithstanding NO devoted thing, that a man shall devote unto the Lord of all that he hath, BOTH OF "MAN" and beast, and of the field of his possession, shall be sold or redeemed: every devoted thing is most holy unto the Lord. 29 -None devoted, which shall be devoted of men shall be redeemed; BUT SHALL SURELY BE PUT TO DEATH.

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“In the week's Torah portion, G-d says about the Mishkan( Tabernacle) "V'neekdash Bichvodi", I will be made holy in my honor (loosely translated). The Talmud says to read it that "I will be made holy through my honored ones" referring to Aaron's 2 son's who were killed. Their death was part of the dedication of the Mishkan…”

Hypermail Torah-Forum Archive: Re: Human Sacrifice

Eze 20:25 Wherefore - I -gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;

Eze 20:26 And - I - polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the LORD.

Jewish Ritual Murder, a Historical Investigation, by Hellmut Schramm, Ph.D

THE DEATH AND RESURRECTION OF THE BELOVED SON The Transformation of Child Sacrifice in Judaism and Christianity Jon D. Levenson

"Tracing from Canaanite to Christian thought the humiliations, deaths, and exaltations of sons and heirs, Levenson intrigues, astounds, and undermines many dearly held theological beliefs. This tour de force offers fascinating discussions of such matters as child sacrifice and the deity's right to the first-born; the paschal sacrifice and other Israelite rituals as symbolic substitutes for the son and heir."--A. J. Levine, Choice

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[RedDragon94]

I'm tired of trying to prove to you that God is perfectly holy and perfectly loving. God will reveal himself to you if he wants to, I just hope your heart is willing when he does. You honestly don't even care about what God thinks, or if he might have an opinion that's different than yours. As for the verses they are either taken out of context or translated poorly. I'm reading out of a Bible that is translated from Biblical scholars and it's way different from your translation. I choose to trust the Bible scholars rather than you. As for Hellmut Schramm, he seems like a Nazi sympathizer. (I've never heard of him.) As far as making a child pass through the flames, that sounds like Baal worship. It says that none of you shall make their child pass through the fire. (Deuteronomy 18:10) That makes human sacrifice an abominable practice. As far as the situation with Jephthah is concerned I don't believe he ever sacrificed his daughter. It was an unfulfilled oath.

 

[Skwim]

God does not carry out evil.

Sorry, but saying it doesn't make it so. And I believe almost every living human on earth considers the deliberate killing of babies to fall under the definition of an act of "evil."

What babies? If you're talking about the Egyptian firstborn, not all of them were children.

Of course not, but obviously some of them were. So god obviously did knowingly kill babies. Also:

Genesis 19:
23 The sun was risen upon the earth when Lot entered into Zoar.

24 Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven;

25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.
​

I assume you do understand the meaning of "all."

 

[truthofscripture]

I'm tired of trying to prove to you that God is perfectly holy and perfectly loving. God will reveal himself to you if he wants to, I just hope your heart is willing when he does. You honestly don't even care about what God thinks, or if he might have an opinion that's different than yours. As for the verses they are either taken out of context or translated poorly. I'm reading out of a Bible that is translated from Biblical scholars and it's way different from your translation. I choose to trust the Bible scholars rather than you. As for Hellmut Schramm, he seems like a Nazi sympathizer. (I've never heard of him.) As far as making a child pass through the flames, that sounds like Baal worship. It says that none of you shall make their child pass through the fire. (Deuteronomy 18:10) That makes human sacrifice an abominable practice. As far as the situation with Jephthah is concerned I don't believe he ever sacrificed his daughter. It was an unfulfilled oath.

God is described as "love", but few choose to recognize that fact. God does reveal the truth of his written word if He sees an honest heart within someone. And no, Jephthah did not sacrifice his daughter.

 

[Skwim]

God is described as "love", but few choose to recognize that fact.

And why should they when he deliberately kills babies? Killing babies is not an act of love. It's an act of evil. See post 200 for the definition.

And no, Jephthah did not sacrifice his daughter.

That's not how the Bible tells it.

Judges 11
29 Then the Spirit of the Lord entered Jephthah. Jephthah passed through Gilead and Manasseh. He came to the city of Mizpah in Gilead. From there, Jephthah passed through to the land of the Ammonites. 30 Jephthah made a promise to the Lord. He said, “If you will let me defeat the Ammonites, 31 I will give you a burnt offering. I will sacrifice the first thing that comes out of my house to meet me when I return from the victory.

34 When Jephthah returned home to Mizpah, his daughter came out to meet him. She was playing a tambourine and dancing. She was his only child. Jephthah did not have any other sons or daughters. 35 When Jephthah saw his daughter, he tore his clothes to show how upset he was. He said, “My daughter! You have made me so sad! This is because I have made a promise to the Lord, and I cannot break it!”

36 Then his daughter said, “Father, you made a promise to the Lord. So do to me just what you promised. The Lord helped you defeat your enemies, the Ammonites.” 37 Then she said, “But let me do one thing. Let me be alone for two months to go to the mountains. I will never marry. So let me and my friends go and cry together.”

38 Jephthah said, “Go.” He sent her away for two months. She and her friends stayed in the mountains. There they cried for her because she would never marry. 39 After two months she returned to her father. Jephthah did to her what he promised to the Lord.​

OR, short story

Jephthah made a promise to the Lord. If you will let me defeat the Ammonites, 31 I will give you a burnt offering. I will sacrifice the first thing that comes out of my house to meet me when I return from the victory. When Jephthah returned home to Mizpah, his daughter came out to meet him. “My daughter! You have made me so sad! This is because I have made a promise to the Lord, and I cannot break it!” Then his daughter said, “Father, you made a promise to the Lord. So do to me just what you promised. After two months she returned to her father. Jephthah did to her what he promised to the Lord.

 

[truthofscripture]

And why should they when he deliberately kills babies. Killing babies is not an act of love. It's an act of evil. See post 200 for the definition.

That's not how the Bible tells it.

Judges 11
29 Then the Spirit of the Lord entered Jephthah. Jephthah passed through Gilead and Manasseh. He came to the city of Mizpah in Gilead. From there, Jephthah passed through to the land of the Ammonites. 30 Jephthah made a promise to the Lord. He said, “If you will let me defeat the Ammonites, 31 I will give you a burnt offering. I will sacrifice the first thing that comes out of my house to meet me when I return from the victory.

34 When Jephthah returned home to Mizpah, his daughter came out to meet him. She was playing a tambourine and dancing. She was his only child. Jephthah did not have any other sons or daughters. 35 When Jephthah saw his daughter, he tore his clothes to show how upset he was. He said, “My daughter! You have made me so sad! This is because I have made a promise to the Lord, and I cannot break it!”

36 Then his daughter said, “Father, you made a promise to the Lord. So do to me just what you promised. The Lord helped you defeat your enemies, the Ammonites.” 37 Then she said, “But let me do one thing. Let me be alone for two months to go to the mountains. I will never marry. So let me and my friends go and cry together.”

38 Jephthah said, “Go.” He sent her away for two months. She and her friends stayed in the mountains. There they cried for her because she would never marry. 39 After two months she returned to her father. Jephthah did to her what he promised to the Lord.​

OR, short story

Jephthah made a promise to the Lord. If you will let me defeat the Ammonites, 31 I will give you a burnt offering. I will sacrifice the first thing that comes out of my house to meet me when I return from the victory. When Jephthah returned home to Mizpah, his daughter came out to meet him. “My daughter! You have made me so sad! This is because I have made a promise to the Lord, and I cannot break it!” Then his daughter said, “Father, you made a promise to the Lord. So do to me just what you promised. After two months she returned to her father. Jephthah did to her what he promised to the Lord.

Thanks for the disinformation.