Why Evil?

[Skwim]

My thoughts are that evil is not a created thing, but the absence or rejection of God's goodness...
What is the definition of evil?

Well, you can redefine any word you wish to fit whatever concept you wish; HOWEVER, it's seldom productive. Few are willing to discuss issues wherein you insist they adhere to definitions outside the norm. Of course, to say that evil is not a created thing goes against god's claim in Isaiah that he did just that. And to assume evil isn't created means it never "came into being" but must have existed for ever. Then consider: for whatever reason god's goodness is absent or rejected functions as the reason for evil: the reason is its cause, and it created evil. If it wasn't for this reason evil would not have appeared.

Then there's this silliness from your link:

There have been many arguments used to indict God as the cause of evil. Here is one of them:

1) God is the creator of everything that exists.
2) Evil exists.
3) Therefore, God is the creator of evil.

The logic of this syllogism is sound. The conclusion follows logically from the premises. But does this syllogism demonstrate that God is the creator of evil? The problem with this argument is its second premise, that evil is something. For evil is not a thing; it is a lack or privation of a good thing that God made.

This is really playing fast and loose with the English: pretending that the lack of something is not a "thing." Of course it's a thing. Just because we may not have a word for this particular instance of lack doesn't mean it isn't a thing. Simply call a "lack or privation of a good thing that God made, "comesquat" and one can more easily see that lack or privation of a good thing that God made is indeed a thing. Just as the lack of clouds is a clear sky, or the lack of happiness is sadness are things.

As Christian philosopher J. P. Moreland has noted, “Evil is a lack of goodness. It is goodness spoiled. You can have good without evil,

Absolutely, because good can stand in contrast to a number of other things; badness, woe, trouble, and wrong, to name a few.

but you cannot have evil without good.”

Only if evil is defined as a "lack or privation of a good thing that God made, because the good here has been specifically defined. But the question arises: so what? This has nothing to do with the argument made by the author of the article. He still stepped into a bucket of wrong when he said: "The problem with this argument is its second premise, that evil is something. For evil is not a thing; it is a lack or privation of a good thing that God made."

1) God is the creator of everything that exists.
2) Evil exists.
3) Therefore, God is the creator of evil.

Is not only a valid syllogism but a sound one as well. Evil does exist.

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[InChrist]

Evil does exist.

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I think evil only exists or can even be realized in contrast to God's goodness and righteousness, but not as an entity or thing on it's own. God now allows this contrast to be seen and realized for a time so that human being may make the decision to exist in His goodness...or not, but the scriptures are clear that at some point the brightness of His Being will eliminate the darkness of evil.

 

[Ingledsva]

Many people who read the scriptures realize that God is good and not evil because they read these scriptures in context without a twisted bias and interpretation (as you have done above) which already assumes that God is evil, but rather knowing that God is the sovereign Creator and ultimate authority who holds all life in His hands. As Creator, His wisdom and understanding is all-knowing and eternal and not bound by human limitation and deceitfulness. As the Judge He holds the right to determine when a people group/nation has reached the limit of wickedness and therefore face judgment which He alone can administer with perfect justice without contradicting His goodness.

"Atheists read the account of Canaan’s conquest and sniff with moral indignation at the suggestion a holy God could be within His rights to destroy the Canaanite people along with their culture. I suspect, though, that Jones has a more accurate assessment:

We do not appreciate the depths of our own depravity, the horror of sin, and the righteousness of God. Consequently, it is no surprise that when we see God’s judgment upon those who committed the sins we commit, that complaint and protest arises within our hearts."
The Canaanites: Genocide Or Judgment? | Bible.org

No real God would be murdering lowly humans right and left, - or purposely be having humans be savage animals, murdering other groups for land and slaves.

Also - I was raised Christian, and read it with Christian eyes, led by preachers, - THEN - I slowed down and actually started studying it. Hence - I am no longer a Christian. No real God would be such a skitzo murderer.

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[Ingledsva]

Evil or sin is anything out of harmony with God's will and standards, IMO. I agree that Satan chose to do what is evil, as did Adam and Eve. Adam disobeyed God’s express law, but this evil Adam did is not chargeable to Jehovah, “for with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone. But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire." (James 1:13,14)

Where does it say ANYWHERE in Tanakh - that Satan disobeyed YHVH?

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[Skwim]

I believe you are inserting your own bias (against God) and perverted thoughts into the scriptural, historical text which are not there when you assume young girls were raped by Israelite men. The text does not say this at all, anywhere. First, from the research I’ve done, using children for sex was not a part of the Hebrew culture as it later was in Greece and Rome. It would have been an abomination before God to do so. Secondly, God had already given the laws against rape to Israel. Thirdly, the Israelite men had been commanded not to have sexual relations with Moabite and Midianite women (Num. 25:1-9), having already experienced plagues and executions when breaking this command.

Women yes, but not young girls. Why else does Moses bother to use the term "young girls" and not "women" in Numbers 31:17-18? Young girls were the exception he needed to make clear. And BTW, your ad hom, "perverted thoughts," is hardly a remark that comes from anyone confident in their position. But be that as it may, I'll take it as just that: a lack of confidence.

The Midianites along with the other surrounding peoples knew about the God of Israel and they had forty years to repent of their ways, but they refused. Not only did they refuse to stop their evil practices, but they purposely harassed, attacked, and attempted to lure the children of Israel into their idol worship and evil ways. God’s hatred of sin and wickedness is consistent and He shows no partiality, as the same destruction from other nations happened to Israel when they turned from the Lord to idol worship along with evil practices.
Then the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD. So the LORD delivered them into the hand of Midian for seven years, and the hand of Midian prevailed against Israel. (Judges 6:1-2)

Quite Irrelevant, but also telling.

What does the Bible say about rape?

Well, in 2 Samuel 12:11-12 (CEB) it says

11 “This is what the Lord says: I am making trouble come against you from inside your own family. Before your very eyes I will take your wives away and give them to your friend, and he will have sex with your wives in broad daylight. 12 You did what you did secretly, but I will do what I am doing before all Israel in the light of day.”
​

Think these poor wives were willing sex objects? Hardly, which would make them victims of rape.


And in Zechariah 14;1-2 (CEB) it says

The day of the Lord
14 A day is coming that belongs to the Lord,
when that which has been plundered from you will be divided among you.
2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem for the battle,
the city will be captured,
the houses will be plundered,
and the women will be raped.
Half of the city will go forth into exile,
but what is left of the people won’t be eliminated from the city.
​

So, obviously rape isn't off the list at all. And it's not at all unlikely that when Moses said "all the young girls who have not known a man intimately by sleeping with him, spare for yourselves. " these young girls were to be spared for sex. In fact, considering the context, it's a given.

 

[Ingledsva]

When did Jehovah ever "commit mass murder of the innocents?

ING - Have you read your Bible? The flood, Cities of the plains, etc. Innocent children would have died in those events (if they were true, of course.)

Who do you claim are innocents?

ING - Babies, and other people as well.

The Canaanites who practiced horrible rites of child sacrifice, incest, bestiality, spiritism, and worship of false gods?

ING - The Hebrew did ALL of these things.

Also - you don't have the right to murder other people - because they have a different religion.

As to children, God holds their parents accountable for the lives and welfare of their offspring until the children are old enough to make their decisions about conduct.

ING - Which has squat to do with a supposedly superior being, murdering babies.

If this were a real God, worried about evil - he would ONLY kill the actual evil people! Not murder the innocent!

Where does the Bible state that God approves of rape?

EXPAND IT.

Several places - however, we will start with the fact that their law says they can hold concubines - which are SEX SLAVES = RAPE.

And of course we have those already mentioned war captives - that they can take home, and RAPE 30 days later.

The law says they can hold slaves forever, and breed them (RAPE,) and the female slave, and the children resulting from that rape, are the owner's property forever.

It is claimed the laws are from God, - and the laws allow rape.

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[rusra02]

Where does it say ANYWHERE in Tanakh - that Satan disobeyed YHVH?

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Genesis chapter 3 reveals that Satan lied to Eve (verses 4,5) and that he there came under God's adverse judgment. (Verses 14,15) Eventually Satan will be crushed out of existence forever. It is obvious to me that Satan is an enemy of God and man. His murderous, slanderous spirit is further revealed in Job 1 and 2.

 

[rusra02]

EXPAND IT.

Several places - however, we will start with the fact that their law says they can hold concubines - which are SEX SLAVES = RAPE.

And of course we have those already mentioned war captives - that they can take home, and RAPE 30 days later.

The law says they can hold slaves forever, and breed them (RAPE,) and the female slave, and the children resulting from that rape, are the owner's property forever.

It is claimed the laws are from God, - and the laws allow rape.

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When did Jehovah ever "commit mass murder of the innocents?

ING - Have you read your Bible? The flood, Cities of the plains, etc. Innocent children would have died in those events (if they were true, of course.)

As I mentioned in my previous post, God holds parents responsible for the lives of their children. The Flood and God's destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah were righteous expressions of God's anger against incorrigibly wicked people. Those who obeyed God had their lives and their children's lives spared.
While the Israelites were permitted to marry captive women and slave women, these women were treated as wives and protected from exploitation. They were not raped, but considered as wives.(Deuteronomy 21:10-14)
While God permitted polygamy among the Israelites, Jehovah restored the monogamy he purposed in Eden when Jesus appeared as the Messiah.
In short, God's laws do not allow rape.

 

[Ingledsva]

Genesis chapter 3 reveals that Satan lied to Eve (verses 4,5) and that he there came under God's adverse judgment. (Verses 14,15) Eventually Satan will be crushed out of existence forever. It is obvious to me that Satan is an enemy of God and man. His murderous, slanderous spirit is further revealed in Job 1 and 2.

This is a serpent - not Satan, - whom wasn't given that title until much later.

This is proved by the fact that this serpent is punished by becoming the normal - belly to the ground, flickering tongue - tasting - normal serpent - FOREVER.

Gen 3: Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Gen 3:14 And YHVH Elohiym said to the serpent, Because you have done this, you are cursed above all beasts, and above every animal of the field. You shall go on your belly, and you shall eat dust all the days of your life.

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[rusra02]

This is a serpent - not Satan, - whom wasn't given that title until much later.

This is proved by the fact that this serpent is punished by becoming the normal - belly to the ground, flickering tongue - tasting - normal serpent - FOREVER.

Gen 3: Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Gen 3:14 And YHVH Elohiym said to the serpent, Because you have done this, you are cursed above all beasts, and above every animal of the field. You shall go on your belly, and you shall eat dust all the days of your life.

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Surely you don't believe a lowly animal challenged God's Sovereignty? Verse 15 says that God would "put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring. He will crush your head, and you will strike him in the heel.” It is obvious that God was not speaking to a serpent but to the superhuman entity that used a lowly serpent to lie to Eve and to challenge God's authority.

 

[Ingledsva]

When did Jehovah ever "commit mass murder of the innocents?

ING - Have you read your Bible? The flood, Cities of the plains, etc. Innocent children would have died in those events (if they were true, of course.)

As I mentioned in my previous post, God holds parents responsible for the lives of their children. The Flood and God's destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah were righteous expressions of God's anger against incorrigibly wicked people. Those who obeyed God had their lives and their children's lives spared.
While the Israelites were permitted to marry captive women and slave women, these women were treated as wives and protected from exploitation. They were not raped, but considered as wives.(Deuteronomy 21:10-14)
While God permitted polygamy among the Israelites, Jehovah restored the monogamy he purposed in Eden when Jesus appeared as the Messiah.
In short, God's laws do not allow rape.

Absolute BULL to all of that.

No REAL sane God would destroy the innocent, for the sin of others!

Thirty days, after watching him run daddy and mommy through with a sword, - is not marriage, - IT IS RAPE!

Also, the word they keep translating wife, - is also just woman. You may make her your woman! RAPE! They were ordered not to marry into these other groups.

That last sentence is a hoot.

While god permitted, - later he changed it, - thus his laws do not allow it. LOLOLOLOLO!

If it was in the laws - and they did it - obviously they considered it God's law.

And by the way - polygamy - is multiple wives (or husbands.) Concubines are Bought SEX SLAVES! No choice! Thus RAPE!

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[Ingledsva]

Surely you don't believe a lowly animal challenged God's Sovereignty? Verse 15 says that God would "put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring. He will crush your head, and you will strike him in the heel.” It is obvious that God was not speaking to a serpent but to the superhuman entity that used a lowly serpent to lie to Eve and to challenge God's authority.

First off - it is just a teaching story - as in not actually true.

Second - YES - That is exactly what it says, - ADDING that the punishment was FOREVER.

It says this talking serpent was more cunning then the other animals.

Strange how you Christians think God's punishment of FOREVER as a real serpent on the ground, - somehow got dumped, - and a serpent became Satan.

Satan in Tanakh - is a servant of YHVH. Later Christians associate him with, and change him into, a serpent.

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[InChrist]

No real God would be murdering lowly humans right and left, - or purposely be having humans be savage animals, murdering other groups for land and slaves.

Also - I was raised Christian, and read it with Christian eyes, led by preachers, - THEN - I slowed down and actually started studying it. Hence - I am no longer a Christian. No real God would be such a skitzo murderer.

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As I've said previously, according to the scriptures, God is holy and righteous and sovereign over all life. You are making a judgment upon His actions from not only a very limited point of view as a finite being without all the facts, but from the standpoint of a sinful attitude which wants to excuse evil and persist in the idea that humans can do their own thing and cursed be a God who judges. Lots of people are raised "Christian", I was thought I was, too, but it was certainly made no difference or gave me real understanding of the scriptures. It sounds like your study was more for the purpose of finding reasons to reject God and feel validated by doing so.

 

[InChrist]

Women yes, but not young girls. Why else does Moses bother to use the term "young girls" and not "women" in Numbers 31:17-18? Young girls were the exception he needed to make clear. And BTW, your ad hom, "perverted thoughts," is hardly a remark that comes from anyone confident in their position. But be that as it may, I'll take it as just that: a lack of confidence.

Quite Irrelevant, but also telling.

I think your focus upon rape of young girls along with many of your threads, most of which I choose not to read, often have an unbalanced or perverted focus on sexual matters.

Well, in 2 Samuel 12:11-12 (CEB) it says

11 “This is what the Lord says: I am making trouble come against you from inside your own family. Before your very eyes I will take your wives away and give them to your friend, and he will have sex with your wives in broad daylight. 12 You did what you did secretly, but I will do what I am doing before all Israel in the light of day.”
​

Think these poor wives were willing sex objects? Hardly, which would make them victims of rape.

Rape is a part of the sinful behavior in this fallen world. It seems to always be a part of war whether it occurred in OT history or today in many parts of the world. God is letting the people of Israel know that when or if they turn away from Him to sin and false gods they are outside of His protection and the same things which happen to other nations will happen with Israel.

And in Zechariah 14;1-2 (CEB) it says

The day of the Lord
14 A day is coming that belongs to the Lord,
when that which has been plundered from you will be divided among you.
2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem for the battle,
the city will be captured,
the houses will be plundered,
and the women will be raped.
Half of the city will go forth into exile,
but what is left of the people won’t be eliminated from the city.
​

So, obviously rape isn't off the list at all. And it's not at all unlikely that when Moses said "all the young girls who have not known a man intimately by sleeping with him, spare for yourselves. " these young girls were to be spared for sex. In fact, considering the context, it's a given.

See above, as long as humans choose to live under the dominion of sin rape is one of the terrible consequences.
It is not a given that the girls were for sex. As a prophet of God, Moses was not advocating rape or sex at all. On the contrary, the young girls were spared because they were still pure and could continue to grow up in Israel.and learn about the true God, then marry Israelite men. Israel had been called to be different and separate from the wicked ways of the surrounding nations where many of these girls may have been human sacrifices.

 

[Skwim]

When did Jehovah ever "commit mass murder of the innocents?

Well, it may not have been murder---the illegal taking of a human life---no laws being in effect, but it was certainly paedocide (the killing of children).

As I mentioned in my previous post, God holds parents responsible for the lives of their children.

Is this suppose absolve god of killing them?

The Flood and God's destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah were righteous expressions of God's anger against incorrigibly wicked people.

The children were incorrigibly wicked?

Those who obeyed God had their lives and their children's lives spared.

Sorry, but making up stuff doesn't cut it. It actually makes you a liar, liar pants on fire.

While the Israelites were permitted to marry captive women and slave women, these women were treated as wives and protected from exploitation. They were not raped, but considered as wives.(Deuteronomy 21:10-14)

Forcing women into marriage and having sex with them amounts to rape. In order to avoid rape there has to be uncoerced agreement, which we know damn well was seldom if ever the case. Rape isn't mitigated by a forced marriage.

While God permitted polygamy among the Israelites, Jehovah restored the monogamy he purposed in Eden when Jesus appeared as the Messiah.
In short, God's laws do not allow rape.

I'd ask you to visit post 25, but figure you wouldn't bother, so I've copied/pasted the relevant parts.

In 2 Samuel 12:11-12 (CEB) it says​

11 “This is what the Lord says: I am making trouble come against you from inside your own family. Before your very eyes I will take your wives away and give them to your friend, and he will have sex with your wives in broad daylight. 12 You did what you did secretly, but I will do what I am doing before all Israel in the light of day.”
​

Think these poor wives were willing sex objects? Hardly, which would make them victims of rape.

And in Zechariah 14;1-2 (CEB) it says

The day of the Lord
14 A day is coming that belongs to the Lord,
when that which has been plundered from you will be divided among you.
2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem for the battle,
the city will be captured,
the houses will be plundered,
and the women will be raped.
Half of the city will go forth into exile,
but what is left of the people won’t be eliminated from the city.​

So, obviously rape isn't off the list at all. God does allow it. Even demands it,

 

[Ingledsva]

As I've said previously, according to the scriptures, God is holy and righteous and sovereign over all life. You are making a judgment upon His actions from not only a very limited point of view as a finite being without all the facts, but from the standpoint of a sinful attitude which wants to excuse evil and persist in the idea that humans can do their own thing and cursed be a God who judges. Lots of people are raised "Christian", I was thought I was, too, but it was certainly made no difference or gave me real understanding of the scriptures. It sounds like your study was more for the purpose of finding reasons to reject God and feel validated by doing so.

And as I've said before - that is the usual Christian crap, trying to cover the tyranny and evil of their God in the Bible. (I assume so they can live with it.)

You folks blanket out the evil, - with the God has a right to do anything, - crap.

The reality is that this crap in the Bible shows that this is NOT God.

You shouldn't have to make excuses for God!

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[InChrist]

And as I've said before - that is the usual Christian crap, trying to cover the tyranny and evil of their God in the Bible. (I assume so they can live with it.)

You folks blanket out the evil, - with the God has a right to do anything, - crap.

The reality is that this crap in the Bible shows that this is NOT God.

You shouldn't have to make excuses for God!

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I definitely agree I don't have to make any excuses for the Creator of heaven and earth, His great love and goodness and perfect righteous judgment of evil is spelled out clearly enough.

 

[psychoslice]

For me it just didn't happen, so there is nothing to say about it.

 

[Deadtroopers]

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah 45:7 KJV.
If you try and read the Tanakh as a unity you will just find it is one confused mess. You can disinter at least half a dozen contradictory versions of 'God' littering the texts. The NT just makes things worse. The theologians have a thing called a theodicy to explain this. I suspect a couple of letters dropped out along the Way (SWIDT): the word they were actually looking for was theoIdiOcy. There just isn't anyway to get a coherent character out of this mess. Wherever you look you are left with a god that doesn't,and cannot be made to, make sense. If this is GOD's WORD I think it is obvious he, and it is quite obviously a bloke, is saying "Come on guys, think about it, this is bone-stupid nonsense; and most of this cannot be coming from any self-respecting god that is worthy of acknowledgement; let alone worship." That's why we don't here from him any more; he said to his son, around about when Marcion got dissed, "C'mon JC, let's get the hell out of Dodge: if I wiped them out again bar a new Noah; they would come back just as loony and more!"

 

[RedDragon94]

In Tanakh Satan is a servant of YHVH. His JOB is to TEST

God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. (James 1:13) Satan is not a servant of YHVH, he is a tool. The biggest tool in history.

EXPAND HIS.

Because we have other verses telling us they could take theme home. let them scream for their massacred families for a whopping 30 days, and then go in and make them their woman = RAPE!

Also, they didn't let people go, - they held, and bred slaves.

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Your efforts to troll me are futile. By nature we are children of wrath. (Ephesians 2:3) You shall not lie with a man as with a woman, it is an abomination. (Leviticus 18:22) That's a law. But as for sorcerers, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death. (Paraphrase, Revelation 21:8) If they did practice witchcraft it was not God's will for them to do so. No they had a right to because the Lord commanded them to drive them out, were the exact words. The fact that they killed them was collateral damage. And the fact that they took them as slaves was outright disobedience.

Okay #1 your people just got overtaken in battle and now are either displaced or annihilated, where are you gonna go? At least your in the company of people who are able to take care of you.
And #2 Where does it say that God commanded them to rape them or that it was his will that they rape them?