Why exactly is Satan bad?

[Kenny]

The notion that a "righteous" god would condone or even sanctify rape and slavery is a damn good reason to reject the biblical portrayal. If something requires a person to repress both their conscience and critical thinking, then it's trash.

I have no problem with the concept of god. My problem is with the biblical depiction of god because it falls so far beneath my standards in regards to logic and morality.

This would fall under #1 mostly, but 2-4 can also apply

 

[Father Heathen]

This would fall under #1 mostly, but 2-4 can also apply

Go with whatever coping mechanism gives you the most satisfaction.

 

[Kenny]

Go with whatever coping mechanism gives you the most satisfaction.

Probably #2 on this one. (or maybe #6 - miscellaneous) (edited)

 

[Father Heathen]

Probably #2 on this one. (or maybe #5 - miscellaneous)

Neat. But anyway, did you see that video in post #197? Pretty cool, right?

 

[Kenny]

Neat. But anyway, did you see that video in post #197? Pretty cool, right?

Amazing imagination… and great acting.

Probably will fall under 3 or/and 5

 

[Father Heathen]

Amazing imagination… and great acting.

Probably will fall under 3 or/and 5

I knew you would enjoy it. It's from a series called "Preacher", a loose adaptation of the graphic novel, that ran for 4 seasons on AMC.

 

[F1fan]

I believe in God. Yet I condemn God.

Why not believe in a God that you don't have to condemn? It's your option. You get to choose the God you prefer.

Or better yet, not believe in any God?

Your rationality is useless in this domain. It’s corrupted.

Yet you can't explain how it is corrupted. Could it be you are just upset at being challenged, and can't formulate a response?

 

[Kenny]

This is an absurd question since anyone who believes a God exists will assume God has full authority,

Probably in your mind… but actually not, if you study the scriptures.

and anything God says is moral

That would be true.

(even if we humans find it immoral,

Then again, humans are fickle.

like slavery

The problem here is that you view it in a western mindset which makes it outside of context and the understanding of that time, not to mention that it was never God’s desire or intention.

or exterminating Jews).

???

Another mindset altogether.

 

[F1fan]

Probably in your mind… but actually not, if you study the scriptures.

I'm going by believers themselves and what they claim.

Are you saying that the God you believe does not have full authority over all things?

That would be true.

And that is why Baptists justifed owning slaves, raping them, killing them, selling their children, etc. Do you think that follows God's morality? If not, how did these Baptists go wrong?

Then again, humans are fickle.

Do you think it was fickle of many Western allies to consider the Christians of Nazi Germany exterminating Jews immoral?

The problem here is that you view it in a western mindset which makes it outside of context and the understanding of that time, not to mention that it was never God’s desire or intention.

I'm talking about Westerners reading the Bible and using it as justification for slavery. Do you think the slave traders were morally correct?

Another mindset altogether.

Yeah, Christians extreminating the Jews was just "another mindset". Is that all you can say about it? Do you think what these Christians did was moral and justifed?

 

[Kenny]

I'm going by believers themselves and what they claim.

I’m sorry… I am a believer and don’t claim that.

Are you saying that the God you believe does not have full authority over all things?

He certainly doesn’t have authority over the will of man.

And that is why Baptists justifed owning slaves, raping them, killing them, selling their children, etc. Do you think that follows God's morality? If not, how did these Baptists go wrong?

Because SOME Baptists, atheists, Buddhist or whatever justifies owning of slaves in the context of recent history, doesn’t mean that it was “God’s morality”.

Or did you forget that it was Baptists, Episcopalians, Methodists, Presbyterians, Anglicans et al who actually fought slavery on the basis of what they read in the Bible.

One was wrong and we know it was the slave owners that were wrong.

Do you think it was fickle of many Western allies to consider the Christians of Nazi Germany exterminating Jews immoral?

Nice move on what you said. You said it was God who wanted Jews exterminated.

I'm talking about Westerners reading the Bible and using it as justification for slavery. Do you think the slave traders were morally correct?

I’m talking about Westerners reading the Bible and extrapolating the truth that God didn’t want slavery and that God was morally correct on the issue as depicted by Christians against the “slave trade”.

Yeah, Christians extreminating the Jews was just "another mindset". Is that all you can say about it? Do you think what these Christians did was moral and justifed?

Are we talking about Christians or God, which is what you were talking about.

That being said, it was wrong of people doing that in the name of Christ as it was wrong of atheist murdering millions in the name of atheistic goals. (Since you are moving the goal post, I thought I would do it too.)

Wrong is wrong no matter who does it.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Why not believe in a God that you don't have to condemn? It's your option. You get to choose the God you prefer.

Or better yet, not believe in any God?

If there is a king, then there is a throne of great power. The alternative is to be resigned to the status of a powerless participant in an undeniably unjust world.

Yet you can't explain how it is corrupted. Could it be you are just upset at being challenged, and can't formulate a response?

I already alluded to it. If God exists, he can manipulate whether or not you believe in him. Further, he can manipulate your reasoning for not believing in him, all in the name of protecting his self image from your condemnation.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I have found that when people come to these conclusions, their positions come from

1. Very superficial or moderate study
2. Any excuse is a good excuse when one doesn’t want to believe
3. They are blinded by the god of this world
4. They aren’t “born-again” so it is natural that they don’t see the truth of what was written.
5. Just hate God

Maybe there is more, but most of these types of answers fall under these categories

None if those apply to me. The Bible, especially the OT, is anything but moral and ethical.
And no, definitely no, being born again doesn't give you magical powers and abilities to read the Bible. You just bought it all hook, line and sinker and become more like to excuse the cruelty and wickedness the Bible supports, condones and even commands.

 

[Kenny]

None if those apply to me. The Bible, especially the OT, is anything but moral and ethical.
And no, definitely no, being born again doesn't give you magical powers and abilities to read the Bible. You've just bought it all hook, line and sinker and become more like to excuse the cruelty and wickedness the Bible supports, condones and even commands.

i think there is some application in your life.

Let me touch on “born-again”.

When my wife went to France, she didn’t understand a word. It wasn’t because they weren’t communicating but rather she wasn’t from that nation and didn’t know the language.

That was my case in reference to the Bible. I had tried to read it before I was 28 but it just didn’t make sense. That was because I wasn’t “born” in the Kingdom of God… it was a different language and i didn’t know the language.

After being born of God’s Spirit, the word became clear and understandable. It was because now I was part of the Kingdom of God and the language became understandable. Maybe I cooed and mumbled at the beginning, but I knew the love and grew in the language of love. (of course, I don’t know the whole language and am not perfect in the language)

Is that understandable?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

???

If morality is defined in terms of God, then "God is good" is meaningless.

It has been going back and forth. I tried to keep it on subject but not able to keep it there.

Fair enough.

I don’t think it is one or the other...

He chose and chooses to do things differently from God. Unless I misunderstand your meaning (which is possible) what he does, because of who he is, it is inherently evil

If morality is based on edicts from God, "inherent evil" can't be a thing.

 

[Kenny]

If morality is defined in terms of God, then "God is good" is meaningless.

Yet, somehow, I came to a different understanding and conclusion

Fair enough.

If morality is based on edicts from God, "inherent evil" can't be a thing.

How so?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yet, somehow, I came to a different understanding and conclusion

If "good" just means "what God is," then "God is good" becomes "God is what God is." You haven't actually said anything.

How so?

If morality is determined by the edicts of God without any connection to an external standard, then literally anything could be deemed "good" by God.

"Inherent" means "permanent or essential." In God-made morality, a thing's moral quality is derived from God's potentially changeable edicts, not in the essence of the thing.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

i think there is some application in your life.

Let me touch on “born-again”.

When my wife went to France, she didn’t understand a word. It wasn’t because they weren’t communicating but rather she wasn’t from that nation and didn’t know the language.

That was my case in reference to the Bible. I had tried to read it before I was 28 but it just didn’t make sense. That was because I wasn’t “born” in the Kingdom of God… it was a different language and i didn’t know the language.

After being born of God’s Spirit, the word became clear and understandable. It was because now I was part of the Kingdom of God and the language became understandable. Maybe I cooed and mumbled at the beginning, but I knew the love and grew in the language of love. (of course, I don’t know the whole language and am not perfect in the language)

Is that understandable?

I understand what you're saying. You don't get a special specific way of understanding the Bible. If anything you're taught how to understand it as your church and denomination do and how to dismiss criticism by making up patronizing nonsense that others just can't know because they don't share in your magic mojo.
Amd guess what? You don't lose that understanding when you go apostate. You just realize how better off you are not siding with a god who's more violent and bloodthirsty than Stalin, Hitler and Pol Pot combined.

 

[Kenny]

I understand what you're saying. You don't get a special specific way of understanding the Bible. If anything you're taught how to understand it as your church and denomination do and how to dismiss criticism by making up patronizing nonsense that others just can't know because they don't share in your magic mojo.

Not really. When you study the history and you look at today’s capacity of man hurting people, you can quite understand it all, if you are born again. #1 Is about superficial studying.

Amd guess what? You don't lose that understanding when you go apostate.

I have found that “apostates” are mostly the prodigal sons and daughters.

You just realize how better off you are not siding with a god who's more violent and bloodthirsty than Stalin, Hitler and Pol Pot combined.

Probably #3 fits well here. Maybe if you realize what needed to happen to stop people like HItler and Poi Pot - you will have a different perspective.

 

[Kenny]

If "good" just means "what God is," then "God is good" becomes "God is what God is." You haven't actually said anything.

I don’t think I have defined Him that way. Love is good - God is love.

Love defined as:

1 Cor 13:4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

He is good because:

Isaiah 53 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.

I would call Him good because

John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends.

Among other things

If morality is determined by the edicts of God without any connection to an external standard, then literally anything could be deemed "good" by God.

Is there a difference between this statement and “Society will determine what is good?"

"Inherent" means "permanent or essential." In God-made morality, a thing's moral quality is derived from God's potentially changeable edicts, not in the essence of the thing.

Isn’t there assumptions here? Isn’t “Changeable edicts” or personal viewpoint? Why can’t it be derived from the “essence of God”?

 

[Bthoth]

I don’t think I have defined Him that way. Love is good - God is love.



John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends.

Among other things



Is there a difference between this statement and “Society will determine what is good?"

People wrote the bible. What you quoted is not much different than appreciating a soldier or police officer.

Point being, people already know that they can give of themselves to help (assist) a life to continue (good); but no theology wrote the perfect words to convey the benchmarks to share with all of mankind.

Isn’t there assumptions here? Isn’t “Changeable edicts” or personal viewpoint? Why can’t it be derived from the “essence of God”?

Essence? All of mankind can comprehend LOVE.

The essence of God, must be rooted in natures properties and universal to natural comprehension.