• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Why faith is evil

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
Auto, I don't have the patience to respond point by point to that novel.

My points are pretty simple:
1) Everyone has reasons for what they believe.
2) Everyone has faith, even by your definition. You just don't like it when people disagree with you, apparantly. That doesn't make them immoral.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Auto, I don't have the patience to respond point by point to that novel.

My points are pretty simple:
1) Everyone has reasons for what they believe.
Of course. And my point is that some reasons are better than others.
2) Everyone has faith, even by your definition. You just don't like it when people disagree with you, apparantly. That doesn't make them immoral.
To the extent they do, it's a bad thing.

Here's some info I'd like you to consider:

Have you heard of created memory? You can actually create a memory in someone--anyone. It takes about a month. What you do is to ask them questions as if it were true. For example, the researchers asked people, "Who found you the time you were lost as a child? How long were you lost? etc." At the end of the month, the people have real, vivid, specific memories of having been lost, and can tell you all about it, including what it felt like. These memories are exactly as real as memories of events that did happen.

Second, young children, by nature (I would say due to evolution) trust and believe what the adults who take care of them tell them. They have to, to survive to adulthood.

Then think about how we teach children religion. We don't say, "There is a God," or "The evidence supports the existence of God." We assume there is a God and we know who He is, and we tell them what they need to know about Him, what He expects of us, etc. "God loves you, God wants you to be good..."

So children grow up with a real, vivid, existing God--in their brains. Whatever God their parents/community/church tells them about. And that God is as real as their house and family. They can tell you all about Him.

Now when you get into religious experiences of the really intense type, going into visions etc. What we see is that we can induce this experience through temporal lobe stimulation. People with temporal lobe epilepsy tend to have them. They have some qualities in common--a sense of peace and well-being, of being loved absolutely, and of oneness with the universe and nature. But when you get to the specifics, each person sees or experiences the God they were raised to know as real. They're having a real experience (whether you see it as solely physical or spiritual or whatever) but that experience gets filtered or framed in terms of the God they already know.

So Catholics see the virgin Mary, Muslims experience Allah or jinn, etc.

So what I'm saying is that this sort of thing--and more--fits the facts better than the idea that there really is a superpowerful invisible Creator who set the galaxies to spinning and intensely interested in what we wear on our heads--or whatever specific God you like.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
But no, I don't mind people disagreeing with me. If they can give me some facts, I can learn from it. But if they just say, "This is my belief, I believe it because it's my faith, and you need to respect that," then no, I don't like that. I think it can cause a lot of mischief, which I don't need to detail for you to know what I'm talking about.

In general, I think a scientific or empirical approach to life works better than a magical or superstitious one.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
Of course. And my point is that some reasons are better than others.
Granted.

To the extent they do, it's a bad thing.
No, it isn't. What hard data do you have to prove your wife isn't cheating on you?

Here's some info I'd like you to consider: [snip]
And then there are pesky cases like me that didn't have any of that.

But no, I don't mind people disagreeing with me.
Really? Then why are you declaring that everyone who dares to do so is immoral, even evil?

If they can give me some facts, I can learn from it. But if they just say, "This is my belief, I believe it because it's my faith, and you need to respect that," then no, I don't like that. I think it can cause a lot of mischief, which I don't need to detail for you to know what I'm talking about.
Or it can do a lot of good.

In general, I think a scientific or empirical approach to life works better than a magical or superstitious one.
FOR YOU, fine. It's not your place to makie other people's choices for them.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Granted.


No, it isn't. What hard data do you have to prove your wife isn't cheating on you?
I'm not married, thanks, but I have a LOT of evidence that my collaborator-in-life is not having sex with anyone but me. I can go into detail if you like.

And then there are pesky cases like me that didn't have any of that.
Well that's the thing about empirical knowledge. It's not, ever, 100%, every case, absolute. It's information we can gather from the trend, the majority, etc.

Really? Then why are you declaring that everyone who dares to do so is immoral, even evil?
It's not the outcome, it's the methodology. I declare that everyone who believes things without evidence is doing something wrong. If someone comes to a different conclusion from the evidence, that's interesting, and we can discuss it. If they say, "I believe this without evidence, and I will act on it, even perhaps expect you to act on it," that's wrong.

Or it can do a lot of good.
Yes, it can.

FOR YOU, fine. It's not your place to makie other people's choices for them.
Of course not. That's why I'm here arguing trying to persuade them! The people who try to impose their views on others, and require them to abide by them whether they agree or not, historically have often been religionists, don't you agree?
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
I'm not married, thanks, but I have a LOT of evidence that my collaborator-in-life is not having sex with anyone but me. I can go into detail if you like.
Unless you have private eyes follow her 24 7, you don't have hard data. And if you do, well, that's the perfect illustration of faith being a good thing.

It's not the outcome, it's the methodology. I declare that everyone who believes things without evidence is doing something wrong. If someone comes to a different conclusion from the evidence, that's interesting, and we can discuss it. If they say, "I believe this without evidence, and I will act on it, even perhaps expect you to act on it," that's wrong.
You know, you can play all the word games you like, it's still just demonizing people who disagree with you.

Of course not. That's why I'm here arguing trying to persuade them! The people who try to impose their views on others, and require them to abide by them whether they agree or not, historically have often been religionists, don't you agree?
Pot, have you met my friend kettle?
 

Midnight Pete

Well-Known Member
The people who try to impose their views on others, and require them to abide by them whether they agree or not, historically have often been religionists, don't you agree?

Agreed, but they have been atheists as well.
 

McBell

Unbound
Just God.
Interesting how you avoid answering the question.
You make unsubstantiated claims and think that people who are not in your particular choir will just accept them?

No. God existed long before there was anyone to recognize Him.
Really?
Which god?
Why are you avoiding the question?


In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God ...

The merry-go-round does not impress me.
You really need an argument for those of us not in your choir.
 

Midnight Pete

Well-Known Member
Faith is indeed evil when it leads to suicide-bombings and torture and genocide and things of that nature.

Faith is not evil when it leads to redemption, healing, altruism, love, compassion, mercy, and fellowship.

There is definitely a Dark Side but that doesn't negate the existence of a Light Side.


:sw:
 
Last edited:

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Unless you have private eyes follow her 24 7, you don't have hard data. And if you do, well, that's the perfect illustration of faith being a good thing.
You can have hard data about things like this without monitoring someone every hour of every day. All you need to do is assess their personality, assess how they act around you, and put a degree of trust in them based on previous experience. Hence why you're likely to trust someone if they have never cheated on anyone more than you'd trust someone who has cheated on you several times in the past. Trusting someone is not "faith" in the way you're illustrating it to be - trust is earned, not given without reason. Those who do give trust without reason are merely operating under a delusion

You know, you can play all the word games you like, it's still just demonizing people who disagree with you.
You clearly don't know what words games are, or what demonizing is.

Auto has not said, or even implied, that people of faith are in any way evil - just that the process and practice of blind faith is not a positive thing, and that those who do so are wrong. Wrong, not evil.

Pot, have you met my friend kettle?
And where has Auto tried, even once, to enforce his views on anyone? Do you have difficulty seeing the difference between questioning one few and forcing a different view on others?
 

McBell

Unbound
Faith is indeed evil when it leads to suicide-bombings and torture and genocide and things of that nature.

Faith is not evil when it leads to redemption, healing, altruism, love, compassion, mercy, and fellowship.

There is definitely a Dark Side but that doesn't negate the existence of a Light Side.

Oh.
So it is like duck tape?
 
Top