Why faith is evil

[Midnight Pete]

Interesting how you avoid answering the question.
You make unsubstantiated claims and think that people who are not in your particular choir will just accept them?

I am quite certain you won't accept them. I'm laying out my case, bit by bit, but I'm not actually trying to prosyletize anyone. I'm engaging unbelivers and atheists in conversation, and it's just out of courtesy and intellectual honesty that I'm doing this at all. Mestemia, I respect you enough that I will try my best to answer the questions you put to me. It's not professional courtesy exactly but I feel like you and I are colleagues.

Really?
Which god?
Why are you avoiding the question?

I'm not avoiding the question. I'm choosing my words very carefully to avoid being deluged with questions I can't answer.

The merry-go-round does not impress me.
You really need an argument for those of us not in your choir.

Again, I know full-well that the merry-go-round doesn't impress you. I don't care.

And I have no illusions about ever coming up with an argument to please and appease those not in my choir.

 

[Midnight Pete]

So, are you being credulous?

Faith and credulity are the same to you, are they not?

 

[Storm]

Auto has not said, or even implied, that people of faith are in any way evil - just that the process and practice of blind faith is not a positive thing, and that those who do so are wrong. Wrong, not evil.

You didn't read the thread title, then?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Faith and credulity are the same to you, are they not?

Could you please just answer the question? Would you say that you are credulous with regards to your beliefs?

You didn't read the thread title, then?

What, Why faith is evil?

Not, Why people who have faith are evil?

 

[Storm]

What, Why faith is evil?

Not, Why people who have faith are evil?

A distinction without a difference. I don't buy the "love the sinner, hate the sin" crap from the Christians, either.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

A distinction without a difference. I don't buy the "love the sinner, hate the sin" crap from the Christians, either.

Except there quite clearly is a difference. To consider a concept evil or wrong does not mean that you automatically consider people who adhere to the concept as evil - nor does it demonize them, any more than me considering someone incorrectly filling in a crossword to be "evil".

What's more, rather than trying to make an argument based solely on the thread's title, perhaps you could actually dive deeper into the arguments made so far in the thread and refer to them?

 

[Storm]

Except there quite clearly is a difference. To consider a concept evil or wrong does not mean that you automatically consider people who adhere to the concept as evil - nor does it demonize them, any more than me considering someone incorrectly filling in a crossword to be "evil".

It does if you want to avoid some nasty cognitive dissonance. You can't separate a person from their choices.

What's more, rather than trying to make an argument based solely on the thread's title, perhaps you could actually dive deeper into the arguments made so far in the thread and refer to them?

Why bother? Not like anyone listens.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

It does if you want to avoid some nasty cognitive dissonance. You can't separate a person from their choices.

Yes, you can. Quite clearly you can, otherwise everyone on these forums would be taking every single discussion about every single aspect of belief that may pertain to them as being personal. The whole idea that we can discuss such subjects without people decrying open discussion on the subject or any disagreement therein as a personal attack is the whole point of a discussion forum.

Why bother? Not like anyone listens.

That's just a cop-out.

 

[Storm]

Yes, you can. Quite clearly you can, otherwise everyone on these forums would be taking every single discussion about every single aspect of belief that may pertain to them as being personal. The whole idea that we can discuss such subjects without people decrying open discussion on the subject or any disagreement therein as a personal attack is the whole point of a discussion forum.

Yeah, the trick to that isn't unnatural disociation of people from their thoughts, it's not calling them evil. It's showing basic respect.

That's just a cop-out.

Think what you want.

 

[McBell]

It's not professional courtesy exactly but I feel like you and I are colleagues.

Probably more so than we realize.

I'm not avoiding the question. I'm choosing my words very carefully to avoid being deluged with questions I can't answer.

Personally, I have more respect for those who flat out say "I don't know" than I do for those who guard their answers in fear of having to answer "I don't know".

Again, I know full-well that the merry-go-round doesn't impress you. I don't care.

And I have no illusions about ever coming up with an argument to please and appease those not in my choir.

Fair enough.

 

[Midnight Pete]

You didn't read the thread title, then?

Someone is back-pedalling ...

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Yeah, the trick to that isn't unnatural disociation of people from their thoughts, it's not calling them evil. It's showing basic respect.

Unfortunately, a lot of the time "showing basic respect" in such debates basically means "refrain from stating any negative opinion or casting any negative light on my beliefs" to people who hold the belief. When discussing a topic openly and honestly, respect means having the decency to state your opinion and support it, as well as giving those who disagree the ability to question your opinion and assess it for themselves. From what I have seen of this thread, that respect is well delivered. Just because you don't like someone's opinion does not automatically mean that it is somehow disrespectful of them to state it.

Think what you want.

There's another cop-out.

 

[Storm]

Unfortunately, a lot of the time "showing basic respect" in such debates basically means "refrain from stating any negative opinion or casting any negative light on my beliefs". When discussing a topic openly and honestly, respect means having the decency to state your opinion and support it, as well as giving those who disagree the ability to question your opinion and assess it for themselves. From what I have seen of this thread, that respect is well delivered. Just because you don't like someone's opinion does not automatically mean that it is somehow disrespectful of them to state it.

Blah, blah, blah. No amount of dancing can make calling the other side "evil" anything approaching productive conversation.

There's another cop-out.

No, it's indifference.

 

[Walkntune]

I think there's something very evil about faith, where faith means believing in something in the absence of evidence, and actually taking pride in believing in something in the absence of evidence.

Interesting. All this time I thought it was man operating in fear that was the cause of evil?
Hmmmmm.

To me what stands out as foolish in this argument is that it is fear and not faith that causes the evil.
Many have fears of things that are not really happening and base actions on these fears which is irrational.
It is faith that keeps one from operating in the irrational behaviour from fear.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Blah, blah, blah. No amount of dancing can make calling the other side "evil" anything approaching productive conversation.

Straw-man.

He didn't call the other side evil, he calls the practice of blind faith evil and states and defends his case. The mere length of this thread and the continuing discussion is evidence that this has produced constructive debate (or, at the very least, a debate as constructive as they tend to be on the subject of religious faith).

Also, try not to say "blah, blah, blah" at people just trying to make a case. It makes you look quite bad, especially while you're trying to formulate an argument about respectful debate.

 

[Storm]

Straw-man.

Hardly.

He didn't call the other side evil,

Yeah, She did.

he calls the practice of blind faith evil

Auto did not make that distinction.

and states and defends his case.

Poorly. Well, that's not true. She argues very well, it's just that her position is wrong.

Also, try not to say "blah, blah, blah" at people just trying to make a case. It makes you look quite bad, especially while you're trying to formulate an argument about respectful debate.

Hey, at least I'm upfront. You're trying to convince me that Auto's playing nice.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Hardly.

Yes it is.

Yeah, She did.

Where?

Auto did not make that distinction.

Yes they did - in the title. Hence "why faith is evil" not "why people who have faith are evil".

Poorly. Well, that's not true. She argues very well, it's just that her position is wrong.

Now you're just being childish.

Hey, at least I'm upfront. You're trying to convince me that Auto's playing nice.

From what I've seen, Auto is playing nice. They've been nothing but respectful and responsive to arguments. You, on the other hand, are stuck on straw-men, riding the same false assumptions around and around, and either ignoring or dismissing without rationale any argument which contradicts you.

 

[Storm]

Whatever, I'm bored. You can have the last word.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Whatever, I'm bored. You can have the last word.

What a brilliant role-model you are for respectful debate.

 

[Storm]

What a brilliant role-model you are for respectful debate.

OK, let's get one thing straight: I am many things, but I am not a doormat. I don't put on a false smile and shake hands with people who insult me.

I would be happy to debate the merits and motives of dis/belief with Auto, or you, if you showed me a shred of respect in return. When you start off with a rant about how I'm evil, however you may sugarcoat and "civilize" it, you don't get any more respect than you give.

I may be a *****, but I'm not a two-faced one.

OK, NOW you can have the last word.