Why God created people that are destined for Hell...

[arcanum]

How about hell being a man made concept?I don't think there is an actual hell,life here on earth can be a living hell.sometimes your state of mind can be the equivalent to being in hell.perhaps hell was invented by man and inserted in the scriptures to use as a tool for keeping man tied to the oxen plow and follow the teachings of the church.what could be more frightening to think of burning and anguish for all eternity?a pretty powerful tool indeed.

 

[roli]

Would God would favour a non-Christian who tried harder to find truth over a Christian who tried less? And do such people exist?

Before you go off again on your question asking, please understand I am answering the question, but if your looking for your style of an answer,you best not ask at all.

God ,according to his word ,is no respector of persons, "initially",he favors no man over another,be it by religion,race,gender, tradition,culture, otherwise he would limit his offer of salvation to certain people groups.
But as it stands,he uses terms such as ,"whosoever", "if any man", etc.

Although this may seem contridictory,read this slowly and digest this concept because this trips most people up, most of the time.
He does have standards on how he ultimately receives and accepts a person and this is based on a standard of "righteousness" his righteousness,not man's religious endeavors,goodness, effords,intentions,emotions,feelings, sincerity or the like.

He is a Holy God and in which most of us, if we are honest, can't possibly even imagine or comprehend in our finite minds the purity of this Holiness.

The Judeo God is Holy,Righteous and perfect, and what he requires of any sinful man is that of righteousness.
This ,according to the Judeo Christian God is an "imputed righteounsess",not self attained rightousness.

Here is a verse regarding Abraham,something that Muslims can identify with.
Jam 2:23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Rom 4:24But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Jesus paid the sin debt by dying a sinless death ,but taking upon himself the weight of that sin,and the weight of the justice that the law demanded.
The wrath of God''s justice was poured out of Christ at the cross
Rom 3:25Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Holdem, could you address the answer God gives according to the word of God and not respond by asking your reptitive questions, for it is in this propitiation or atonement your answer lies.
But it's not a politically correct answer.

Do you agree that whether or not a belief that is based on faith is true, is pure luck.

If it was faith alone with no varifiable confirmations,absolutely, it's pure luck, guess work at best.
But as a Christian, God meets the Christian at that faith and begins to reveal and confirm himself in such deep levels through His Spirit and word that a true born again believer quickly realises this relationship with God is a living,active reality and the guess work ,or as you put it, luck,ceases to be even considered.

And do you agree that God will reward/punish us based on these beliefs?

If one does not believe and recieve the Chirst of God's word as the propititation and justification for their sins, they can therefore not attain the righteousness that God requires of us to enter his Holy presence.

Since we all have an equal chance to choose Christianity and we all can be held accountable for not following once we have simply heard of the Bible, why is it that almost everyone born in Saudi Arabia has "chose" Islam and almost everyone born in the USA has "chose" Christianity

Your concept of God's acceptance is not based on the term "Christianity",which you so loosely and regularly use,but in Christ the person and his death, burial and resurrection.
Many people believe and even aspire to the Christian faith,as a title or simple belief,but know not God or the righteousness found in Christ by receiving him as Lord.

I have done my best to answer the only way I felt I can. All i ask OF you is to try to understand the concepts I have put forward regarding his propitiation for our sin and the righteousness he then credits to our account in which allows the person to stand righteous,holy and acceptable before a Holy God.

 

[roli]

Let me count the ways:

1. Because I'm pretty sure there is no such place.
2. If there is any such place, I'm pretty sure you don't know any more about it than I do.
3. If there is any such place, I'm pretty sure no living person knows anything about it, so cannot tell me anything about it. This includes the human beings who wrote the Bible.
4. If there ever was such a person as Jesus Christ, and if He ever did say such a thing, I'm pretty sure He was mistaken; probably schizophrenic. A more plausible explanation is that His followers exaggerated, then spread via oral tradition, anything He might have said on the subject.

The difference between you and I is that I know and your not sure, as is evident in the choice of conjuctions you use.
1Jo 5:13These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Rom 8:16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
1Cr 2:9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.


When you close our eyes to this life, I'm sure you'll have the absolute knowledge your lacking.

 

[Magic Man]

The difference between you and me is that I know and you're not sure, as is evident in the choice of conjuctions you use.

How do you know? Because I gotta tell ya, if you want to go that route, I would say I know, too, as would many millions of other people from religions other than yours.

(Also, I hope you don't mind. I corrected a couple of grammatical things in this quote from you.)

 

[roli]

How do you know? Because I gotta tell ya, if you want to go that route, I would say I know, too, as would many millions of other people from religions other than yours.

(Also, I hope you don't mind. I corrected a couple of grammatical things in this quote from you.)

Thanks for the correction, I was never proficient in the grammatical side of things.

I understand that we all know intellectually, that is a given,but as a Christian, there is a certainity that I have experienced about God that goes deeper then intellectual ascent,emotions,feelings or even sensory perception.
It's in the spirit, the recesses of the heart that God witnesses to my spirit by his spirit that I am his ,heaven is home,this earth is just a foreign land that I am passing through.

Could this be a figment of my imagination,sure ,some might conclude this to be the only viable option,but I know what I was before I met Christ and I know what it's like to be known by Christ,to talk with, listen to and recieve from Him.

It's such a confident assurance and expectancy that is not easy to convey ,but is most certainly expereinced and that's all I can say.

 

[HoldemDB9]

If it was faith alone with no varifiable confirmations,absolutely, it's pure luck, guess work at best.
But as a Christian, God meets the Christian at that faith and begins to reveal and confirm himself in such deep levels through His Spirit and word that a true born again believer quickly realises this relationship with God is a living,active reality and the guess work ,or as you put it, luck,ceases to be even considered.

Ill only answer to these since they are the only ones that had anything to do with my comments.

roli there are people all over the world who are just as sure as you that they are right about their religion. What do you think of these people? What are they experiencing?

If one does not believe and recieve the Chirst of God's word as the propititation and justification for their sins, they can therefore not attain the righteousness that God requires of us to enter his Holy presence.

But you are saying that this is true, REGARDLESS of how they came to have a belief or dis-belief in Christ. Do you know what regardless means? This is not at all fair. In fact, its insane. You are saying yourself that Christians have done nothing better, all you are saying is that they are right. Being right is NOT doing something better. Being right is NO BETTER than being wrong, unless you can tell me what they are doing better that is causing them to be right. Do you accept that there are other people of other religions who (in their minds) are just as sure as you are? The ONLY difference between a Christian and an equally faithful Muslims to you, is that one is right and one is wrong. Since they were equal, being wrong or right is 100% COMPLETLEY IRELEVANT. Do you see why?

Please tell me how you feel about this God, why wont you answer this?

Imagine that when you die, you find out that Islam is true. God tells you that you are going to be punished because you simply were not a Muslim. No other reason. - you rejected Islam therefore you will be punished. He is also going to reward every Muslim. Even those who were less faithful and who tried LESS than you to find truth, simply because they accepted Islam. What would you think of this God roli?

 

[HoldemDB9]

Thanks for the correction, I was never proficient in the grammatical side of things.

I understand that we all know intellectually, that is a given,but as a Christian, there is a certainity that I have experienced about God that goes deeper then intellectual ascent,emotions,feelings or even sensory perception.
It's in the spirit, the recesses of the heart that God witnesses to my spirit by his spirit that I am his ,heaven is home,this earth is just a foreign land that I am passing through.

Could this be a figment of my imagination,sure ,some might conclude this to be the only viable option,but I know what I was before I met Christ and I know what it's like to be known by Christ,to talk with, listen to and recieve from Him.

It's such a confident assurance and expectancy that is not easy to convey ,but is most certainly expereinced and that's all I can say.

There is still faith needed roli. I understand that you have had those experiences and I can accept that it may have been God behind them. Like you said yourself though, these experiences could be a " figment of my imagination". But you have faith that it is, in fact Jesus. < That is where the faith comes in. I am not saying that you have not had these feeling and experiences, I am saying that you do not know FOR SURE that it is Jesus behind them, which is fine. There are people who have the EXACT SAME feelings and experiences that you have had. The difference is that you have faith that it is Jesus and they have faith that it is something else. Do you agree that this is where the faith comes in?

I would be surprised if you said you needed no faith at all. Even the most devout of Christians accept that they don't 100% know, which is why they have faith. I'm not at all saying that there is anything wrong with having faith, I'm just pointing out that your beliefs are based on faith. Do you agree? If not, please explain.

 

[HoldemDB9]

Before you go off again on your question asking, please understand I am answering the question, but if your looking for your style of an answer,you best not ask at all.

God ,according to his word ,is no respector of persons, "initially",he favors no man over another,be it by religion,race,gender, tradition,culture, otherwise he would limit his offer of salvation to certain people groups.
But as it stands,he uses terms such as ,"whosoever", "if any man", etc.

Although this may seem contridictory,read this slowly and digest this concept because this trips most people up, most of the time.
He does have standards on how he ultimately receives and accepts a person and this is based on a standard of "righteousness" his righteousness,not man's religious endeavors,goodness, effords,intentions,emotions,feelings, sincerity or the like.

He is a Holy God and in which most of us, if we are honest, can't possibly even imagine or comprehend in our finite minds the purity of this Holiness.

The Judeo God is Holy,Righteous and perfect, and what he requires of any sinful man is that of righteousness.
This ,according to the Judeo Christian God is an "imputed righteounsess",not self attained rightousness.

Here is a verse regarding Abraham,something that Muslims can identify with.
Jam 2:23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Rom 4:24But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Jesus paid the sin debt by dying a sinless death ,but taking upon himself the weight of that sin,and the weight of the justice that the law demanded.
The wrath of God''s justice was poured out of Christ at the cross
Rom 3:25Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Holdem, could you address the answer God gives according to the word of God and not respond by asking your reptitive questions, for it is in this propitiation or atonement your answer lies.
But it's not a politically correct answer.

ALL you are saying here is that God rewards those who are right and God punishes those who were wrong, regardless of how they came to be right or wrong. This makes no sense, this is unfair and this is contradicts with the belief that God is fair. There is ZERO difference between being right and being wrong, unless you can tell me what it is that the Christians are doing better that is causing them to be right. If you cannot tell me what they are doing better, then you CANNOT say that God will favour them. Simple as that. This is NOT an answer to my question.

Here is the questions again, its not hard roli, they can be answered with a simply yes or no.

Would God would favour a non-Christian who tried harder to find truth over a Christian who tried less?

Do such people exist?

 

[roli]

ALL you are saying here is that God rewards those who are right and God punishes those who were wrong, regardless of how they came to be right or wrong. This makes no sense, this is unfair and this is contradicts with the belief that God is fair. There is ZERO difference between being right and being wrong, unless you can tell me what it is that the Christians are doing better that is causing them to be right. If you cannot tell me what they are doing better, then you CANNOT say that God will favour them. Simple as that. This is NOT an answer to my question.

Here is the questions again, its not hard roli, they can be answered with a simply yes or no.

Would God would favour a non-Christian who tried harder to find truth over a Christian who tried less?

Do such people exist?

Jesus says this and Holdem,I say it to you.
Mar 6:11And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Righteousness,propitiation, atonement,substitioinary,sacrifice, justice,......??
Key words you never reciprocate or even mention in your arguements,

No other religious guru ever claimed or accomplished the work required of God for the redemption of man, but Jesus........accept it,reject it or deny it altogether,

.....your choice, I'm done here with you Holdem, the answer could'nt slap you in the face any harder than I have here.

But answers are not really what your looking for are they Holdem, but more a repeal of what it is I believe and stand by.
..you won't get that from this corner,so "good luck" and no pun intended, for it is luck you seem to dwell on.



1Jo 2:19 — They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

 

[McBell]

Well, if all of us Christians disappear sometime, you might have your proof.

I suspect that there will be loads of people left behind who think they should have gone.
But other than that....
Please stop teasing.

Not that it will matter. It will be Bush's fault.

How will it be Bush's fault?
I realize you are attempting to be sarcastic, but I have to admit, I fail to see your point.

 

[HoldemDB9]

Jesus says this and Holdem,I say it to you.
Mar 6:11And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Righteousness,propitiation, atonement,substitioinary,sacrifice, justice,......??
Key words you never reciprocate or even mention in your arguements,

No other religious guru ever claimed or accomplished the work required of God for the redemption of man, but Jesus........accept it,reject it or deny it altogether,

.....your choice, I'm done here with you Holdem, the answer could'nt slap you in the face any harder than I have here.

But answers are not really what your looking for are they Holdem, but more a repeal of what it is I believe and stand by.
..you won't get that from this corner,so "good luck" and no pun intended, for it is luck you seem to dwell on.



1Jo 2:19 — They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Yet again, no answers. I said when I bring stuff like this up that one of four things happen, either they agree that all religions go to heaven, they say they don't know, they say all Christians are trying harder, or they stop replying. I guess you go into the stop replying category.

You really are not at all answering my questions, everyone can see this roli. Its because if you do, it will become clear how pathetic, contradicting and ridiculous some of your beliefs are. I mean, I've brought this up plenty of times with other Christians and they at least answer. You really are one of the most ignorant, narrow minded people I have ever come across. All I wanted was one reason and you could not give me one. And you will not even admit that you cannot give me one. I honestly cannot even see how you can disagree with what I've said, because most of it is fact. I mean even RiverWolf who was pretending to have beliefs of a narrow minded Christian, could not even come up with an answer. But that would explain why you have not replied to loads of my questions and the ones you did reply to had almost nothing to do with what Id asked. I've even asked you to answer a specific question THREE times and you still have not even answered it.

If you want to continue then please actually answer the questions that I asked. If not, I understand that you have nothing to say and I understand why you would want to get out of this.

 

[Magic Man]

I understand that we all know intellectually, that is a given,but as a Christian, there is a certainity that I have experienced about God that goes deeper then intellectual ascent,emotions,feelings or even sensory perception.
It's in the spirit, the recesses of the heart that God witnesses to my spirit by his spirit that I am his ,heaven is home,this earth is just a foreign land that I am passing through.

I'm not just talking about intellectually. I mean in every conceivable way, there are plenty of people who are as sure about their god or religion as you are about yours. I am also quite sure about my position on God.

Could this be a figment of my imagination,sure ,some might conclude this to be the only viable option

See, this is what people mean. People tend not to say they're absolutely 100% sure that God doesn't exist simply to leave room for this possibility. I'm just as sure that God doesn't exist as I am that this computer in front of me does exist. Sure, this could be a figment of my imagination, but the chances are more than extremely thin.

 

[roli]

Yet again, no answers. I said when I bring stuff like this up that one of four things happen, either they agree that all religions go to heaven, they say they don't know, they say all Christians are trying harder, or they stop replying. I guess you go into the stop replying category.

You really are not at all answering my questions, everyone can see this roli. Its because if you do, it will become clear how pathetic, contradicting and ridiculous some of your beliefs are. I mean, I've brought this up plenty of times with other Christians and they at least answer. You really are one of the most ignorant, narrow minded people I have ever come across. All I wanted was one reason and you could not give me one. And you will not even admit that you cannot give me one. I honestly cannot even see how you can disagree with what I've said, because most of it is fact. I mean even RiverWolf who was pretending to have beliefs of a narrow minded Christian, could not even come up with an answer. But that would explain why you have not replied to loads of my questions and the ones you did reply to had almost nothing to do with what Id asked. I've even asked you to answer a specific question THREE times and you still have not even answered it.

If you want to continue then please actually answer the questions that I asked. If not, I understand that you have nothing to say and I understand why you would want to get out of this.

Be careful Holdem, the house you hurrle your stones from is also made of glass !
In actuality ,I would think them to be mirrors as opposed to glass, for that which you hate and dispise in others is quite often reflective of what's in the recesses of your own heart, one just fails to admit or confront it.
Maybe chew on that for awhile and see if it is you that is narrow minded or should I say close minded to the answers given.

For clarity and closeure,Holdem, I will pick your questions apart and show you that my answers were indeed in correlation with the questions.

It's just that they were'nt the answers you or many atheist,non theist,secularist,humanist,universalist etc really want to hear
It's quite obvious the very mention of some of those answers I introduced touched some nerves with you as they tend to do to others in this secular society.

 

[roli]

I started going through your questions and my replies and there are answers for your questions and I was being thorough.
So what I will do is this ,you ask the question,one at a time and we will pick it and the answer apart and if nothing else,come to some possible understanding of both positions before moving on.

What to think Holdem.

Just to be on the same page, could you Clear one thing up for me, are you an atheist, Muslim or professing christian?

 

[roli]

I'm a sucker for punishment, I guess!!

 

[HoldemDB9]

I started going through your questions and my replies and there are answers for your questions and I was being thorough.
So what I will do is this ,you ask the question,one at a time and we will pick it and the answer apart and if nothing else,come to some possible understanding of both positions before moving on.

What to think Holdem.

Just to be on the same page, could you Clear one thing up for me, are you an atheist, Muslim or professing christian?

I'm would consider myself to be an agnostic.

If you want to continue then please answer to my replies on post 326, 327 and 328. The questions I have asked in those posts, you have not answered.

 

[Autodidact]

The difference between you and I is that I know and your not sure, as is evident in the choice of conjuctions you use.

The difference between you and I is that I'm right and you're wrong.

<snip scripture blah blah blah. Why does roli think I'm interested in his holy book--at least until he brings me a good reason to be.

When you close our eyes to this life, I'm sure you'll have the absolute knowledge your lacking.

And I'm pretty sure I'll be dead. The fact that you think you know what's going to happen after I die demonstrates how ridiculous your delusions are. Have you ever been dead?


[FONT=COMIC SANS MS,PALATINO,BOOKMAN OLD STYLE,HELVETICA,ARIAL,TIMES]Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong. [/FONT]

Thomas Jefferson

I am less remote from the truth than you are, because, unlike you, I know what I don't know.

 

[Autodidact]

Thanks for the correction, I was never proficient in the grammatical side of things.

I understand that we all know intellectually, that is a given,but as a Christian, there is a certainity that I have experienced about God that goes deeper then intellectual ascent,emotions,feelings or even sensory perception.
It's in the spirit, the recesses of the heart that God witnesses to my spirit by his spirit that I am his ,heaven is home,this earth is just a foreign land that I am passing through.

Could this be a figment of my imagination,sure ,some might conclude this to be the only viable option,but I know what I was before I met Christ and I know what it's like to be known by Christ,to talk with, listen to and recieve from Him.

It's such a confident assurance and expectancy that is not easy to convey ,but is most certainly expereinced and that's all I can say.

And how is your certainty different from the certainty of a schizoprenic? Does it have any more evidence to support it?

 

[Autodidact]

roli: Follow closely here. There are millions of people, all over the world, who are just as certain of their God as you are of yours, and for the exact same reasons as you, and with the exact same amount of evidence. How can we tell who is right, you, them, or neither?

 

[roli]

roli there are people all over the world who are just as sure as you that they are right about their religion.

Yes ,this is clearly obvious.

What do you think of these people?

I think they are genuine and respect them all for pursuing.... with faith, their belief !!!,whatever that may be.

What are they experiencing?

I have no idea what they are experiencing, there are so many variances and motives that come into play with people who ,such as obligation,duty,desire,need,traditions, culture or family.
Depends on their belief practices, focal point,doctrine,statement of faith,
as far as any of us can tell they might be having a legitimate experience, or a superficial one. That is between them and their god.


[

QUOTE Original Roli]If one does not believe and recieve the Chirst of God's word as the propititation and justification for their sins, they can therefore not attain the righteousness that God requires of us to enter his Holy presence.

But you are saying that this is true, REGARDLESS of how they came to have a belief or dis-belief in Christ. [/quote

]

I am saying that this is true, according to the Judeo Christian God I serve.
This can only be true to those who have believed before receiving that righteousness God grants to those who trust Christ.
If I understand what your asking here,the position you held prior to being declared righteous must be one of belief and not disbelief,how else can one accept the truth of who God claims to be,unless he believes what the Holy Spirit has revealed to him.

This is not at all fair.In fact, its insane.

Tell me again what your referring to when you say "not fair,insane"

You are saying yourself that Christians have done nothing better, all you are saying is that they are right.

Christians are sinners as are all men, and prior to salvation have not done anything better then others that is deserving of God's favor or forgiveness,that's according to our belief.

Being right is NOT doing something better.

We are right in our own hearts, as God through the Holy Spirit attests to this, but that is privy and an experience to the believer who has believed and received Christ.

Being right is NO BETTER than being wrong, unless you can tell me what they are doing better that is causing them to be right.

It's better only to the individual who feels they have the truth.
Although we believe it to be the essence of "truth", other religions still can think or feel they have the truth, and that's the beauty of the freedoms of this land.
They are trusting Christ only and his atoning sacrifice for forgiveness of their sins and it's only right to those inside faith in Christ. Those who don't believe have not the truth of who the judeo God claims to be in his word.
They may have another God, but not the Judeo Christian God ,otherwise his word is nothing but a paper weight.

Do you accept that there are other people of other religions who (in their minds) are just as sure as you are?

Yes !!

The ONLY difference between a Christian and an equally faithful Muslims to you, is that one is right and one is wrong.

Well of course ,it's the only position to take if you are either or.

Since they were equal, being wrong or right is 100% COMPLETLEY IRELEVANT. Do you see why?

Are you referring to "equal' in measure of faith one has ???

Please tell me how you feel about this God, why wont you answer this?

Ok ,here is the problem ,Muslim have a God and Christians have a God, Mormons have another Godm and so on.
God cannot be the equal among all religions when essential doctrines and beliefs are split across the board.

Imagine that when you die, you find out that Islam is true. God tells you that you are going to be punished because you simply were not a Muslim. No other reason. - you rejected Islam therefore you will be punished. He is also going to reward every Muslim. Even those who were less faithful and who tried LESS than you to find truth, simply because they accepted Islam. What would you think of this God roli?[/

I answered this already.
I'd be disappointed and confused and pretty much lost for eternity