Why God created people that are destined for Hell...

[Riverwolf]

which gospels?

All four canonical gospels, and I've read bits of the Gospel of Thomas. I've also heard of the first half of Paul's letter to the Romans as being considered the "Gospel according to Paul.", and I've read all of Romans once, and the first bits twice.

 

[astarath]

So you have read 4 gospels and bits of another so we will call it 4.2 gospels out of more than 12 available scriptures? Ebionites do not accept Paul's writings as bibilical any more than my postings on forums.

 

[Riverwolf]

So you have read 4 gospels and bits of another so we will call it 4.2 gospels out of more than 12 available scriptures? Ebionites do not accept Paul's writings as bibilical any more than my postings on forums.

Makes sense. I disagree with pretty much everything Paul has to say, as well. But in reading his letters, I've learned a lot about evangelical Christianity.

But what's your point in asking?

 

[astarath]

I ask as you have barely dipped your toes in the pool but are explaining how the pool was built and how to maintain it.

God created one thing for certain... a choice. One we all have made believe or not. God also created outcomes to each choice individual to the path taken. When you come to a fork in the road you pick a path both lead to an end but they are two different finishes.

 

[Riverwolf]

I ask as you have barely dipped your toes in the pool but are explaining how the pool was built and how to maintain it.

God created one thing for certain... a choice. One we all have made believe or not. God also created outcomes to each choice individual to the path taken. When you come to a fork in the road you pick a path both lead to an end but they are two different finishes.

I'm not sure I understand you.

I was defending a specific point of view based on what I know. I never said I agreed with it, quite the contrary.

 

[astarath]

Dude i have got to get back to work I want ot keep going pm me so I dont forget k?

 

[Sententia]

Whether or not telepaths are fictional is beside the point. I can relate some experiences, but I'm too tired right now. Maybe later.

I still assert telepaths are fictional and if you believe otherwise I think that is relevant. Atleast we can agree to disagree. On a side note, when someone says they will reply later and days go by along with pages of them replying I always debate whether its dishonesty or just that they dont care. Maybe they forgot. Who knows.

Never heard of it. I was actually sorta thinking of Professor X, though he does telepathically communicate with words.

Thats great but professor X was fake. He was just made up. But you do elaborate a bit:

Try to imagine it like that, except with feelings instead.

Ok I don't feel this fits at all. Xavier could sense the thoughts of people not even in the room with him and could even control or insert thoughts.

Are you claiming its the same as knowing the feeling of others and being able to change those feelings just by thought? This is still fiction to me.

Humans have empathy facilitated by mirror neurons which based on your experiences and genetic makeup try to mirror what they percieve is happening and thus you feel the experience. An external event caused it but it must be one you can percieve and the result is a matter of conditioning. (Basic Training 101)

To present the argument that god exists and you know because he communicates with us all through feelings and emotions is unsubstantiated nonsense to me. Its great that this idea is your guiding light and it helps you etc... And Im not the thought police... But why would you think others would believe this? You present that we are just too stupid or ignorant to see that... but isnt that offensive? Are you not calling all people, theists, pagans, agnostics and atheists... basically everyone... either stupid or ignorant if they dont acknowledge that god speaks to them through feelings and emotions?

How should people respond to that? Better yet, how do you justify making such an assertion? Personal experience?

 

[HoldemDB9]

Luck certainly does'nt please God or make him come down and touch my spirit,change my heart ,my desires,my life,my future,my eternal destiny.
Faith in Christ unlocks the the secrets of the Kingdom of God, luck as no bearing whatsoever.

Yes it is all luck to you. A Muslim feels all of the things that you described above, just EXACTLY THE SAME AS YOU HAVE, the difference is, they feel this after they have put their faith in Islam. But you think that you will be favoured because your religion turns out to be true. And they will be punished because there religion turns out to be false. Even though you were both EXACTLY THE SAME.

Your going to have to eitehr take that up with God or experience yourself and that experience may not occur through your internal fortitude or your intellectual accent.
Maybe through circumstances that have or will happen in your life.
It's kind of ironic, but often God uses our life circumstances and experiences to turn our stubborn heads and hard hearts to God.
MAny an atheists have cried out to God when found between a rock and a hard place,I wonder why that has to happen that way.

Can you please respond the the comment I made? You cant can you? my comment was: "But to say that one persons belief based on faith will IN ANY WAY be favoured over an other persons belief based on EQUAL faith, ONLY because one was false and one was true, is insane and makes ZERO sense."

See how in Gods eyes, there is no difference between two people if they both had EQUAL faith in two different religions? You just seem to think that if one is right they deserve a reward and if one is wrong they deserve a punishment.

Please, keep your words out of my mouth.
My belief is not in question here,it's yours that is in question.
I'm quite content in what I believe, Holdem.

Please tell me what words I put into your mouth. And your wrong, it is your beliefs that are in question.

Concerning whether God will favor those who have placed their trust in his son over those who have not ,well ,read the bible or pray to God to reveal that truth, because I have tried to share the truth of what God says in his word concerning those issues and you can't seem receive it.

All the Muslims have prayed to God and they have had the truth revealed to them that Islam is true, just like you have had it revealed to you that Christianity is true. There is no difference in Gods eyes between the two. Its not that you have give me answers but I cant receive it, its that you cant give me answers. Apart from being right, what has all Christians done that will cause God to favour them over all none Christians? you have not yet gave me an answer, because there is not one.

Maybe the problem is not that you don't believe in anything concerning Christianity, but that you don't " want "to believe anything about it.
Maybe that is a good thing ,because the first thing one should see is their sinful heart before a Holy God, the rest is so insignificant that it pails in comparison to seeing our position before a Holy God.

Again this basically has nothing to do with what I said. But since I really wanted an answer to this one, please will you respond again?

As a matter of fact, that is what I have done,I have believed in the image of the God described in scripture,so if I burn for believing in and trusting the God of the bible. You can have the last word and laugh, but as it stands I am confident in what I believe and will be unmoved for;

FINALLY. Yes I know you are confident in what you believe, but ALL of the Muslims are just as equally confident in what they believe. Which means that there is no difference between you and an equally faithful Muslim. The difference in your mind is that you are right and they are wrong. But being wrong or right is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT if those beliefs were equal. You have said it yourself that if Islam is true, then you will burn. All I want to know is what would you think of a God who would allow you to burn because you did not believe in Islam? What would you think of this God roli?

The difference between you and me is that I have inside knowledge,assurance and confience in the God I serve, enough so ,that I place my eternal destiny in his hands
And I can sleep at night knowing, that if I die I will spend eternity with him and for me that's all I need.

Again, nothing to do with my comment. I did not ask you how sure you are that Christianity is true. I did not say that you have no idea why you believe in Christianity. What I said is that you have no idea why God would favour Christians over Muslims, and you don't. But I guess you will probably just say that the fact that God will favour one person over another EQUAL person, is fair, but we just don't understand how it is fair. Fine, you keep beleifs that you yourself do not understand.

 

[HoldemDB9]

roli since you now seem to be responding to my questions. Id like to ask you what I asked you earlier in the thread, when you did not answer.

Would God would favour a non-Christian who tried harder to find truth over a Christian who tried less? And do such people exist?

Do you agree that whether or not a belief that is based on faith is true, is pure luck. And do you agree that God will reward/punish us based on these beliefs?

Since we all have an equal chance to choose Christianity and we all can be held accountable for not following once we have simply heard of the Bible, why is it that almost everyone born in Saudi Arabia has "chose" Islam and almost everyone born in the USA has "chose" Christianity?

 

[HoldemDB9]

Going to heaven is not a negotiation.

A gift is a gift accept it or get over it.

Are you talking about Christianity or GOD? Islam is a gift and many have accepted it just as you have accepted Christianity. Are these Muslims, in Gods eyes, equal to Christians?

 

[HoldemDB9]

2Ti 4:3For a time is coming when people will no longer listen to right teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers who will tell them whatever they want to hear.

RiverWolf is not telling me what I want to hear, FAR from it. He is just answering the questions that you will not answer and attempting to provide answers to the questions that you have no answers for.

 

[HoldemDB9]

God created one thing for certain... a choice. One we all have made believe or not. God also created outcomes to each choice individual to the path taken. When you come to a fork in the road you pick a path both lead to an end but they are two different finishes.

What is the choice - Believe in God or not or believe in Christianity or not?

 

[Riverwolf]

I still assert telepaths are fictional and if you believe otherwise I think that is relevant. Atleast we can agree to disagree. On a side note, when someone says they will reply later and days go by along with pages of them replying I always debate whether its dishonesty or just that they dont care. Maybe they forgot. Who knows.

First of all, I said MAYBE.

Second of all, when I say "later", that means "on my own time". That means that it could be later that day or a month from then. I'll elaborate when I'm ready.

Third of all, I'm very skeptical of the existence of telekinetics and telepaths. I seriously doubt humans actually have such an ability. But I'm open to the possibility that we have the potential to have such abilities, considering how awesome the human mind is.

Thats great but professor X was fake. He was just made up. But you do elaborate a bit:

Yes, I know he's fake.

Ok I don't feel this fits at all. Xavier could sense the thoughts of people not even in the room with him and could even control or insert thoughts.

Are you claiming its the same as knowing the feeling of others and being able to change those feelings just by thought? This is still fiction to me.

Fiction or not, it's still the best I could come up with, as there are no other universal examples in this subject matter that are not fiction, as far as I'm aware. I know Prof. X isn't the best example, but it's the best I could do.

Hm... maybe Q would have been a better example, as he's basically God. (ere you say anything, YES, I know Q is fictional. )

Humans have empathy facilitated by mirror neurons which based on your experiences and genetic makeup try to mirror what they percieve is happening and thus you feel the experience. An external event caused it but it must be one you can percieve and the result is a matter of conditioning. (Basic Training 101)

Uh...

To present the argument that god exists and you know because he communicates with us all through feelings and emotions is unsubstantiated nonsense to me. Its great that this idea is your guiding light and it helps you etc... And Im not the thought police... But why would you think others would believe this? You present that we are just too stupid or ignorant to see that... but isnt that offensive? Are you not calling all people, theists, pagans, agnostics and atheists... basically everyone... either stupid or ignorant if they dont acknowledge that god speaks to them through feelings and emotions?

How should people respond to that? Better yet, how do you justify making such an assertion? Personal experience?

I never said others were stupid or whatever simply because they cannot "see". Sorry if I came off like that. The gods speaking to us like that is simply how I interpreted what I felt some time ago. I hold different beliefs now: the gods are part of the human psyche, not external forces. I do still believe in the living Gaia, but I no longer believe she communes with us. (others disagree, and that's okay) I do believe that there are beings that we cannot comprehend, but I don't know if they interact with us or not.

 

[Autodidact]

Holdem, what really is the problem you have with Jesus saying "without me ,you will not enter heaven",
Why don't you just settle it in your heart that all will go to heaven, so as to be able lay your head on the pillow at night.

Let me count the ways:

1. Because I'm pretty sure there is no such place.
2. If there is any such place, I'm pretty sure you don't know any more about it than I do.
3. If there is any such place, I'm pretty sure no living person knows anything about it, so cannot tell me anything about it. This includes the human beings who wrote the Bible.
4. If there ever was such a person as Jesus Christ, and if He ever did say such a thing, I'm pretty sure He was mistaken; probably schizophrenic. A more plausible explanation is that His followers exaggerated, then spread via oral tradition, anything He might have said on the subject.

 

[HoldemDB9]

I really don't understand how you can pull that out from what I said, well I can because it supports your postion.
I started off by saying that "life is not fair,not that God is " by this, I was saying that life is unfair ,not that God is unfair.
If anyone could pull another meaning from this so suit their position ,it would be you ,so I will try to be clearer next time.

I never said God is unfair, I am saying and have been saying all along that,"God reaches the humnan spirit,that is the deep recesses of the heart of man by means of His spirit. If you know anything about Christianity,you should know this one most important principal.
That is why Paul in 1 Cor said "the natural man receives not the things of God ,neither can he know them they are foolishness to him because they are spiritually discerned"
The natural man is the reasoning,intellect and knowledge man possesses.

.
Again ,i never said God was unfair, I said it may seem that way to finite man.
The only way God seems to be unfair to man is because of man's ignorance of the things of God.Before I ever admit that God is unfair, I must look inward to the things of my heart that I fail to comprehend,acknowledge or am ignorant of.

Ok, let me get this straight. So you believe that, God in your understanding, is fair. But you also believe that God favours Christians over non-Christians. Yet you have no reason to believe this. How is this possible? Surely to understand how God is fair, you would have to have a reason as to why God favours Christians? But you don't have a reason do you? All you keep saying is, "because Christianity is true", like I said this is not a reason. Or you will say, "It has been shown to me, through the holy spirit", well that is not even an answer. The question is: What are Christians doing that is causing God to favour them? Not, "which religion is true" or "how are you so sure".

Being right about something does not automatically deserve a reward and being wrong about something does not automatically deserve a punishment. How one came to be right or wrong HAS to be taken into account. When I ask you what is the difference between a Christian and an equally faithful/just as sure Muslim, you say that one was right and one was wrong. See how that is not even a difference? See how if they are both equal, being wrong or right is TOTALLY irrelevant? The Christian has to be doing something better than the Muslim, now what are they doing better? Im not asking for an answer that satisfies me, Im just looking for an answer.

I know you believe that you have been assured without a doubt that Christianity is true, thats fine. But it has nothing to do with this topic so I don't know why you keep saying it. Surely you accept that there are people who also believe that they have 100% been assured that another religion is true. Why is this? Is God not doing a good enough job of assuring them (if so, why?), or is it something that they are not doing? If the latter, then please tell me, like Ive asked over and over again, what is it that all those equally faithful Muslims are not doing that will cause God to like Christians more? And remember, "Christians were right and Muslims were wrong" is not an answer, so please don't come back telling me things like, "they have accepted Jesus, this is what they are doing better".

"They are trying harder to find truth" or "they are being less ignorant and more honest". << Those are actual reasons. The ones you have been giving, are not reasons. So its not me who cant accept your reasons and answers. The problem is you who cannot provide answers or reasons - this is because there are none. In fact, if there was, then I would be a Christian.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Holdem, I don't believe your being honest about ever being a Christian. I hope I am wrong though.

 

[HoldemDB9]

Holdem, I don't believe your being honest about ever being a Christian. I hope I am wrong though.

I'm being honest rick. I am not completely sure like a theist or an atheist is, regarding whether or not I believe in God. But if I had to say, I would say I do believe in a creator/observer - what almost all would call God.

So of course, if one could tell me/show me how God will favour me for believing in Christianity, then I would convert. But of course, there is no answer. People just think that "being right" is the answer. And that "being right" deserves a reward. Well it doesn't. A Hindu who tried harder to find truth but did not find it, is obviously better than someone who tried less but found it.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I'm being honest rick. I am not completely sure like a theist or an atheist is, regarding whether or not I believe in God. But if I had to say, I would say I do believe in a creator/observer - what almost all would call God.

So of course, if one could tell me/show me how God will favour me for believing in Christianity, then I would convert. But of course, there is no answer. People just think that "being right" is the answer. And that "being right" deserves a reward. Well it doesn't. A Hindu who tried harder to find truth but did not find it, is obviously better than someone who tried less but found it.

Well, if all of us Christians disappear sometime, you might have your proof.

 

[jacobweymouth]

Well, if all of us Christians disappear sometime, you might have your proof.

Not that it will matter. It will be Bush's fault.

 

[HoldemDB9]

Well, if all of us Christians disappear sometime, you might have your proof.

I'm not looking for proof. I'm just looking for one reason as to why God will like me more for becoming Christian. I have no reason to believe he would and neither does any Christian, otherwise they would have told me.