Why God created people that are destined for Hell...

[Autodidact]

I posted this in another thread, yet I would like to post it here because I think my logic would be given analysis.

God does not create people to go to Hell, God created people with free will and the choice to form a relationship with Him if they do choose to do so. It is analogous to the way in which one would tape a football game and watch it over again. You know what the players are going to do yet you do not control their actions. God is omniscient. But just because he knows what you are going to do does not mean he made you do it.

And you know this how?

 

[HoldemDB9]

I posted this in another thread, yet I would like to post it here because I think my logic would be given analysis.

God does not create people to go to Hell, God created people with free will and the choice to form a relationship with Him if they do choose to do so. It is analogous to the way in which one would tape a football game and watch it over again. You know what the players are going to do yet you do not control their actions. God is omniscient. But just because he knows what you are going to do does not mean he made you do it.

Are you speaking of forming a relationship with GOD or with Jesus?

 

[Riverwolf]

Of course if you think that God has told you that Christianity is true, you would have no doubt. But like I said, I did not ask how roli was so sure about his beleifs or how he came to have them. I asked how/why God will favour him for having them. There are Muslims who just as strongly believe that the God of Islam is talking to them. If they both believed just as passionately and strongly then how can God favour one over the other? What is the Christian doing better than the Muslim? (remember they both believe just as passionately and strongly)

From that mindset, of understanding that both are equally passionate about believing that God is talking to them, then no, Christians are doing nothing different.

Guess what? I've heard adults (usually Bush supporters) basically say that Muslims don't believe as strongly as Bush does his beliefs. I've heard nearly these exact words: "It doesn't matter what they believe, but what does matter is the strength of that belief." I once held similar views on my own beliefs to know that the rest of the statement would basically be "and Bush believes far more passionately and strongly in Jesus Christ, than Muslims do in the Qur'an and their Allah."

And, of course, these are the leaders, so they must know far more than we do, so they must know what they're talking about. :sarcastic

Of course, the Christian is doing nothing better. But they seem to think that being right about something deserves something good, REGARDLESS of how they came to be right. If you removed the part in bold, I would have no problem with their beliefs.

They believe they are doing something better, and I've repeated many times that thing, so I won't bother repeating myself. Whether or not it's true or accurate is not in question.

If one could give an answer, then they would have to say that the fact that 80% of people born in THE WHOLE of India are not doing [insert answer], is just mere coincidence. If a Christian cannot provide an answer/reason that I've been asking for over and over again, then they cannot go around saying that Christians will be in any way favoured - for they themselves have NO reason to believe this.

As I said, the usual explanation given is that God has made himself clearly known to them, and they still choose to disobey.

Well to be honest, Id say there is reason to think that roli would lie.

Why?

I didn't say God should be fair, but this is how Christians portray him to be.

And, as I said above, they believe God has made himself known. They believe that God would never send someone to hell without giving them ample opportunity to hear the Word of God, and therefore they have heard it and still choose to disobey.

 

[Riverwolf]

I agree again. And I should have said "most Christians" because there are plenty of Christians who would agree with what your saying.

In fact, most of them.

Trust me: the majority of Christians aren't so narrow-minded and dogmatic. I'm actually good friends with a group of Methodists who know full well that I'm a pagan, and don't care one lick.

So far, I've only come across dogmatic Christians online, with the only exceptions being kids from Junior High.

 

[HoldemDB9]

From that mindset, of understanding that both are equally passionate about believing that God is talking to them, then no, Christians are doing nothing different.

Well what other mindset is there? Just as you explain below, the only way out of this is to say that ALL Christians are more passionate than ALL non-Christians, which of course is crazy. I would say anyone who says such a thing, is being completely dishonest.

Guess what? I've heard adults (usually Bush supporters) basically say that Muslims don't believe as strongly as Bush does his beliefs. I've heard nearly these exact words: "It doesn't matter what they believe, but what does matter is the strength of that belief." I once held similar views on my own beliefs to know that the rest of the statement would basically be "and Bush believes far more passionately and strongly in Jesus Christ, than Muslims do in the Qur'an and their Allah."

And, of course, these are the leaders, so they must know far more than we do, so they must know what they're talking about. :sarcastic

Well this is just insane.

They believe they are doing something better, and I've repeated many times that thing, so I won't bother repeating myself. Whether or not it's true or accurate is not in question.

I know that they believe they are doing something better, but they have not told me what that thing is. They have told me what it is that is causing God to favour them (having a belief in Christianity) but they have not told me WHY they will be favoured for having this belief. Without saying why they will be favoured, telling me what it is that is causing God to favour them - is pointless. They are basically saying "we believe that we Christians will be favoured over everyone else" and "we believe God will favour us, because we are Christian". Its not a valid reason.

Saying "Christians will be favoured because Christianity is true" is not at all an answer, but it is the only one that roli has gave me. Its not an answer because there is no reason behind it. Its like saying (using my ball out of the the bag analogy) that God will favour those who picked the red ball, because the red ball was the one he picked out of the bag. Its not an answer.

"Christians will be favoured because the harder someone tries to find truth, the more the closer they will come to Christianity". << This is a valid answer. This is telling me how it is actually possible for God to have favourites. So like I said, they are telling me what they believe, but they have absolutely no reason to believe it. They believe they will be favoured "because they were right". Its not an answer, there has to be something in the process of being right, that is more reward worthy or better than being wrong.

As I said, the usual explanation given is that God has made himself clearly known to them, and they still choose to disobey.

I've heard this before. To me it sort of make sense, but this is not what roli and some other Christians are saying. Swap the word God with Jesus, then you will have the Christians that I have a problem with. If someone says that Jesus is clearly making himself known to all Muslims and Hindus, then they must have completely lost their minds.

Why?

Maybe to protect his current beliefs, I'm not exactly sure. But I know that there are Christians who do actually agree with some points that you have said, but will say that they disagree. Some things that they disagree with are so dam obvious that I can help but think that they're are lying. I mean after all, some Christians do claim to disagree with undeniable facts. Its like they don't want to give in, its like they see agreeing with you as losing in some way. I mean roli has already said that he knows of beleifs that even to him make more sense, yet he chooses to keep the less sensible beliefs.

And, as I said above, they believe God has made himself known. They believe that God would never send someone to hell without giving them ample opportunity to hear the Word of God, and therefore they have heard it and still choose to disobey.

Like I said above, swap the word God with Jesus and this would be accurate of what they believe. Also just because we were given the opportunity does not clear everything up and make it all fair, even if we were all given an equal opportunity (which, fwiw, is not the case). For example, if a non-Christian tried harder to find truth than a Christian, it would not be fair for God to favour the Christian - even though both had an equal opportunity to become one.

And you can not be punished for "disobeying the true word of God" if you did not believe that it was the world of God. There has to be something punishable behind having the false belief. You cant just say "you were wrong, therefore it is fine for you to be punished".

I would like Christians to answer this: Imagine that the earth is actually 6,000 years old and most of us were wrong, do you think that God will favour a young earth creationist over the rest of us simply because "they were right"? See how it is not at all fair to punish and reward based ONLY on whether or not we were right or wrong? There has to be something behind the beliefs, that is either reward worthy or punish worthy. I have not ever had an answer from a Christian, as to what it is that is causing God to favour them, because there is no answer.

 

[HoldemDB9]

In fact, most of them.

Trust me: the majority of Christians aren't so narrow-minded and dogmatic. I'm actually good friends with a group of Methodists who know full well that I'm a pagan, and don't care one lick.

So far, I've only come across dogmatic Christians online, with the only exceptions being kids from Junior High.

Well I sure hope it is most of them, but I'm not so sure about that. If you could do a pole and ask every Christian on the planet: Do you believe that only Christians will go to heaven? I cant help but think that the vast majority will say yes. Maybe I'm wrong though. I have also only came across these Christians online. It certainly seems to me as if Christians in real life are a lot more laid back, sensible, logical and open minded than online.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

Many even go so far to say that the God of Islam is Satan himself. (such as Bush; he once said that the Qur'an is a Satanic book)

Please give us a reference for this. Thanks.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

Many even go so far to say that the God of Islam is Satan himself. (such as Bush; he once said that the Qur'an is a Satanic book)

Please give us a reference for this. Thanks.

 

[Riverwolf]

Please give us a reference for this. Thanks.

I only repeat what I've heard. I have no reference.

 

[HoldemDB9]

God doesn't save based on one's good deeds. That obviously upsets you.

Actually, after I've thought about this, it does upset me, and worry me and disgusts me. What a great thing to teach children huh? So being good does not get you to heaven and being bad does not get you to hell? But having faith in a certain specific religion gets you to heaven and not having faith in that specific religion gets you hell? So bad Christians go to heaven and good non-Christians (and I know Christianity teaches that nobody is good, but the point still remains since some are more good than others) go to hell, regardless of how they came to have their beleifs of lack of beleifs? It not about how well you lead your life then? Pure luck then huh?

Like I said, what a great thing to spread and to teach children. :areyoucra

 

[Riverwolf]

I've been tired lately, so I only now got to responding to this.

Well what other mindset is there? Just as you explain below, the only way out of this is to say that ALL Christians are more passionate than ALL non-Christians, which of course is crazy. I would say anyone who says such a thing, is being completely dishonest.

Nope. They're being perfectly honest. It's called being willfully ignorant. Welcome to the human race.

Well this is just insane.

Yet very real.

I know that they believe they are doing something better, but they have not told me what that thing is. They have told me what it is that is causing God to favour them (having a belief in Christianity) but they have not told me WHY they will be favoured for having this belief. Without saying why they will be favoured, telling me what it is that is causing God to favour them - is pointless. They are basically saying "we believe that we Christians will be favoured over everyone else" and "we believe God will favour us, because we are Christian". Its not a valid reason.

God has extended his hand to help humanity through Jesus Christ. No other religion, as far as some Christians are concerned, have such an offer. (both of us know that's untrue, but people believe all kinds of things that are untrue)

Saying "Christians will be favoured because Christianity is true" is not at all an answer, but it is the only one that roli has gave me. Its not an answer because there is no reason behind it. Its like saying (using my ball out of the the bag analogy) that God will favour those who picked the red ball, because the red ball was the one he picked out of the bag. Its not an answer.

No, because God told people that he'd be picking out the red ball, and some continue to think he'll be picking out the green one anyway.

"Christians will be favoured because the harder someone tries to find truth, the more the closer they will come to Christianity". << This is a valid answer. This is telling me how it is actually possible for God to have favourites. So like I said, they are telling me what they believe, but they have absolutely no reason to believe it. They believe they will be favoured "because they were right". Its not an answer, there has to be something in the process of being right, that is more reward worthy or better than being wrong.

How more right can you get than God having told you which ones are right and which ones are wrong?

I've heard this before. To me it sort of make sense, but this is not what roli and some other Christians are saying. Swap the word God with Jesus, then you will have the Christians that I have a problem with. If someone says that Jesus is clearly making himself known to all Muslims and Hindus, then they must have completely lost their minds.

Nope. They are just being ignorant.

I think it's unreasonable to assume that everyone has heard the same information regarding other religions. Don't forget that leaders (not necessarily political) like putting out propaganda against foreign religions, and people tend to buy them.

Obstructed by this propaganda, even if someone reads another's holy book, they'll only see what the propaganda wanted them to see instead of the many similarities. That's why there's such an anti-Islam attitude in the west right now, because of BS propaganda influencing how people read the Qur'an.

Maybe to protect his current beliefs, I'm not exactly sure. But I know that there are Christians who do actually agree with some points that you have said, but will say that they disagree. Some things that they disagree with are so dam obvious that I can help but think that they're are lying. I mean after all, some Christians do claim to disagree with undeniable facts. Its like they don't want to give in, its like they see agreeing with you as losing in some way. I mean roli has already said that he knows of beleifs that even to him make more sense, yet he chooses to keep the less sensible beliefs.

So, not so much lying to us as lying to themselves.

But the Bible speaks of such devotion to faith as admirable, so that even if something may "make more sense" it's still not of God, and therefore must be of this world, which is Satan's domain.

Like I said above, swap the word God with Jesus and this would be accurate of what they believe. Also just because we were given the opportunity does not clear everything up and make it all fair, even if we were all given an equal opportunity (which, fwiw, is not the case). For example, if a non-Christian tried harder to find truth than a Christian, it would not be fair for God to favour the Christian - even though both had an equal opportunity to become one.

I think a narrow-minded Christian would view that non-Christian "trying harder" would be more along the lines of "trying harder to find reasons to disobey God". Whether or not that's true, I suspect that's how they'd view it. (I could be wrong)

And you can not be punished for "disobeying the true word of God" if you did not believe that it was the world of God. There has to be something punishable behind having the false belief. You cant just say "you were wrong, therefore it is fine for you to be punished".

If there was no reason for you to believe in God, then you're right. However, narrow-minded Christians believe that God has made himself quite clearly known, and people still disagree. It's more like "I made myself quite clear to you, and you still chose not to believe."

I would like Christians to answer this: Imagine that the earth is actually 6,000 years old and most of us were wrong, do you think that God will favour a young earth creationist over the rest of us simply because "they were right"? See how it is not at all fair to punish and reward based ONLY on whether or not we were right or wrong? There has to be something behind the beliefs, that is either reward worthy or punish worthy. I have not ever had an answer from a Christian, as to what it is that is causing God to favour them, because there is no answer.

I'll just leave Christians to that, but I will say this: just because you haven't heard any answers doesn't mean there aren't any.

 

[roli]

Well I sure hope it is most of them, but I'm not so sure about that. If you could do a pole and ask every Christian on the planet: Do you believe that only Christians will go to heaven? I cant help but think that the vast majority will say yes. Maybe I'm wrong though. I have also only came across these Christians online. It certainly seems to me as if Christians in real life are a lot more laid back, sensible, logical and open minded than online.

Holdem, what really is the problem you have with Jesus saying "without me ,you will not enter heaven",
Why don't you just settle it in your heart that all will go to heaven, so as to be able lay your head on the pillow at night.

 

[HoldemDB9]

Holdem, what really is the problem you have with Jesus saying "without me ,you will not enter heaven",

My problem is that this is not at all fair, unless you can give me JUST ONE REASON as to why Christians will be favoured by God over non-Christians. And you cannot give me a reason, NOT ONE. Without a reason your beleifs on this topic make NO SENSE. Without a reason you are saying that God punishes and rewards based on sheer luck. Without a reason your beleifs are a contradiction. Without a reason you have no reason to believe what you beleive. And of course, you have no reason.

I said in an earlier thread that bringing this up ends in 4 ways: Either they agree that all GOD believers go to heaven, they say they don't know, or they give me a reason as to why God will favour them. Yes that's right, finally they give me a reason!! Its just that the reason is always so insane and far-fetched that it cannot be taken seriously, like: ALL Christians have searched harder or ALL Christians have searched more honestly/passionately than ALL non-Christians. And the 4th option is that they stop replying to my comments/questions, just like you and &#7936;&#955;&#942;&#952;&#949;&#953;&#945; have.

Also, the other problem I have with what I've quoted, is what I told &#7936;&#955;&#942;&#952;&#949;&#953;&#945;. Ill repeat my response that I gave to her:

Actually, after I've thought about this, it does upset me, and worry me and disgusts me. What a great thing to teach children huh? So being good does not get you to heaven and being bad does not get you to hell? But having faith in a certain specific religion gets you to heaven and not having faith in that specific religion gets you hell? So bad Christians go to heaven and good non-Christians (and I know Christianity teaches that nobody is good, but the point still remains since some are more good than others) go to hell, regardless of how they came to have their beleifs of lack of beleifs? It not about how well you lead your life then? Pure luck then huh?

 

[HoldemDB9]

No, because God told people that he'd be picking out the red ball, and some continue to think he'll be picking out the green one anyway.

Just as I said to roli in my above reply. It seems the only way out of this is to come up with insane and far-fetched reasons. To say that JESUS (not God) is making himself known to all Muslims and all Hindus, just the same as he is making himself known to Christians, is absolute insanity.

How more right can you get than God having told you which ones are right and which ones are wrong?

I think you misunderstood exactly what I was talking about. When I said,"So like I said, they are telling me what they believe, but they have absolutely no reason to believe it." I was not talking about their belief in God or in Jesus, I admit, they do have reasons for those beleifs. I was talking about the belief that God will favour Christians over non-Christians - this is the belief that they have no reason to believe. You cannot answer the question "Why will god favour Christians?" by saying "because I have been assured that Christianity is true". I did not ask how you are sure about your belief in Christ, I asked why God would favour you for having this belief.

But judging by what you have told me, it looks as if the narrow minded Christian may answer by saying. "God has told all Muslims and Hindus that Christianity is true (just like he has told me) , but they have chosen not to follow." This seems like the only answer that they can give, but of course, like I've said, its absolutely insane. I mean if they say this then they are saying that IT IS JUST A COIDNCIDENCE that 80% of people born in India have "chosen" not to follow what they have been "assured" to be true. Its hilarious and its insane.

If there was no reason for you to believe in God, then you're right. However, narrow-minded Christians believe that God has made himself quite clearly known, and people still disagree. It's more like "I made myself quite clear to you, and you still chose not to believe."

Again swap the word God with Jesus. I've answered this in my above replies. To say that Jesus has equally made himself known to all (and by making himself known I don't mean having people hear of him, I mean giving 100% assurance like roli has had) is CRAZY. :areyoucra

I'll just leave Christians to that, but I will say this: just because you haven't heard any answers doesn't mean there aren't any.

Well I've brought this up with many Christians and so far, no real answer. I mean if there was an answer, then I would most likely become Christian. I mean, wouldn't anyone? At least, any theist? Even followers of other religions should convert if they hear a reason as to why God would like them more if they were Christian. There obviously is no reason.

Another point:

When you say that roli is 100% sure that Christianity is true, I would not really say that this is the case. Most Christians would not really say this. If they did, then there would be no need for any faith at all. I mean God has not exactly 100% assured them in a completely obvious and easy to accept way has he - like appearing in front of them and actually telling them in words?

I think they are 100% assured that they have felt something, that something is guiding them and is talking to them. The faith comes in here: Theists have faith that it is God that is behind these feelings and experiences. And Christians have faith that it is Jesus behind it. Just like Muslims have faith that it is the God of Islam that is behind it. So I don't think that they are 100% sure, in fact almost all Christians will accept that they are not 100% sure. Its just that how you've explained this makes it sound like roli needs no faith at all. But which ever way you look at it (even if one has been "100% assured"), to follow and believe in a certain specific religion, it requires faith.

 

[roli]

My problem is that this is not at all fair, unless you can give me JUST ONE REASON as to why Christians will be favoured by God over non-Christians. And you cannot give me a reason, NOT ONE. Without a reason your beleifs on this topic make NO SENSE. Without a reason you are saying that God punishes and rewards based on sheer luck. Without a reason your beleifs are a contradiction. Without a reason you have no reason to believe what you beleive. And of course, you have no reason.

I said in an earlier thread that bringing this up ends in 4 ways: Either they agree that all GOD believers go to heaven, they say they don't know, or they give me a reason as to why God will favour them. Yes that's right, finally they give me a reason!! Its just that the reason is always so insane and far-fetched that it cannot be taken seriously, like: ALL Christians have searched harder or ALL Christians have searched more honestly/passionately than ALL non-Christians. And the 4th option is that they stop replying to my comments/questions, just like you and &#7936;&#955;&#942;&#952;&#949;&#953;&#945; have.

Also, the other problem I have with what I've quoted, is what I told &#7936;&#955;&#942;&#952;&#949;&#953;&#945;. Ill repeat my response that I gave to her:

Actually, after I've thought about this, it does upset me, and worry me and disgusts me. What a great thing to teach children huh? So being good does not get you to heaven and being bad does not get you to hell? But having faith in a certain specific religion gets you to heaven and not having faith in that specific religion gets you hell? So bad Christians go to heaven and good non-Christians (and I know Christianity teaches that nobody is good, but the point still remains since some are more good than others) go to hell, regardless of how they came to have their beleifs of lack of beleifs? It not about how well you lead your life then? Pure luck then huh?

Life is unfair, not that God is, but only possibly appears that way,but apparently you learn to accept what comes your way,maybe it's your ignorance concerning the ways of God that is the root of the problem.
As a matter of fact, in many cases in life,ignorance tends to be the heart of the problem where man is concerned and as a result, man's emotions produce anger, frustration,worry,bitterness, rage and the like.
It actually becomes harder to find the truth with such hinderances in place.
Why is God and "His" way of salvation any different, as if he has to explain every detail of every plan and purpose he sets in motion,when so many others throughout history have found God and his plan for their life without all their questions answered, their "T"s crossed and "i"s dotted
He has made the plan of salvation available and accessible to all who would come after it,but it take a brokeness of spirit and humility of the ego and denying of self to enter into this place of rest.
Do they understand fully why he does the things he does or does'nt do, not always,but they have an inner confidence and assurance through the Holy Spirit of his promises and his words of life being true.
They have met God and no man can take that from the one who comes to that revelation and that free gift called"salvation"
1Cr 1:26For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, [are called]:But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;God chose things despised by the world, things counted as nothing at all, and used them to bring to nothing what the world considers important,

It's His perrogative to do as he pleases and he must have reason why he does what he does, but I'm sure it will be made clear someday.

.BTW,it's not faith in a relgion that God accepts and it is this point that you keep tripping up on.

If it was based on our goodness, none of us would go to heaven.
Your confusion of one' being "good" preceeding salvation is extremely flawed and it proves the point Paul was making in
1Cr 2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Do you undersatnd this principal Holdem

 

[Riverwolf]

Just as I said to roli in my above reply. It seems the only way out of this is to come up with insane and far-fetched reasons. To say that JESUS (not God) is making himself known to all Muslims and all Hindus, just the same as he is making himself known to Christians, is absolute insanity.

I think you misunderstood exactly what I was talking about. When I said,"So like I said, they are telling me what they believe, but they have absolutely no reason to believe it." I was not talking about their belief in God or in Jesus, I admit, they do have reasons for those beleifs. I was talking about the belief that God will favour Christians over non-Christians - this is the belief that they have no reason to believe. You cannot answer the question "Why will god favour Christians?" by saying "because I have been assured that Christianity is true". I did not ask how you are sure about your belief in Christ, I asked why God would favour you for having this belief.

But judging by what you have told me, it looks as if the narrow minded Christian may answer by saying. "God has told all Muslims and Hindus that Christianity is true (just like he has told me) , but they have chosen not to follow." This seems like the only answer that they can give, but of course, like I've said, its absolutely insane. I mean if they say this then they are saying that IT IS JUST A COIDNCIDENCE that 80% of people born in India have "chosen" not to follow what they have been "assured" to be true. Its hilarious and its insane.

Again swap the word God with Jesus. I've answered this in my above replies. To say that Jesus has equally made himself known to all (and by making himself known I don't mean having people hear of him, I mean giving 100% assurance like roli has had) is CRAZY. :areyoucra

But it's what some people believe. I just accept that this kind of thing is believed by people. If I have a chance to help educate, I will, but whether or not someone listens to me is up to them, not me. But I refuse to force my opinions onto them the way they may do to me; I'd only inform them of what I understand, backing it up. I'd make no judgments on their beliefs, and I'd NEVER call their beliefs insane; after all, they think the same about my beliefs.

BTW, many also believe Christ is God incarnate.

Also, a bit about me. I make a distinction between Jesus the Sage, who I do believe existed at one point as a sort of Jewish Buddha; and the mythological savior called Christ, prophesied in Isaiah called Immanuel.

Well I've brought this up with many Christians and so far, no real answer. I mean if there was an answer, then I would most likely become Christian. I mean, wouldn't anyone? At least, any theist? Even followers of other religions should convert if they hear a reason as to why God would like them more if they were Christian. There obviously is no reason.

Paul gives a reason: because of the coming wrath of God.

Now... is there a PRACTICAL reason?

Well... since when have mythological-based religions been practical?

Another point:

When you say that roli is 100% sure that Christianity is true, I would not really say that this is the case. Most Christians would not really say this. If they did, then there would be no need for any faith at all. I mean God has not exactly 100% assured them in a completely obvious and easy to accept way has he - like appearing in front of them and actually telling them in words?

I think they are 100% assured that they have felt something, that something is guiding them and is talking to them. The faith comes in here: Theists have faith that it is God that is behind these feelings and experiences. And Christians have faith that it is Jesus behind it. Just like Muslims have faith that it is the God of Islam that is behind it. So I don't think that they are 100% sure, in fact almost all Christians will accept that they are not 100% sure. Its just that how you've explained this makes it sound like roli needs no faith at all. But which ever way you look at it (even if one has been "100% assured"), to follow and believe in a certain specific religion, it requires faith.

Which is why I believe using the word "faith" is inappropriate, because so many have more than "faith"; assurance is a very different thing.

 

[HoldemDB9]

Life is unfair, not that God is, but only possibly appears that way,but apparently you learn to accept what comes your way,maybe it's your ignorance concerning the ways of God that is the root of the problem.
As a matter of fact, in many cases in life,ignorance tends to be the heart of the problem where man is concerned and as a result, man's emotions produce anger, frustration,worry,bitterness, rage and the like.
It actually becomes harder to find the truth with such hinderances in place.

Looks to me as if you are saying that how I am describing your God to be, is true and therefore - your God (at least to humans) is unfair, but God is not "actually" unfair in reality. Our human reasoning is all we have to work with roli. You cannot just say "through our current understanding and through human reasoning, God is unfair. But he is "actually" fair, I just don't know how". Why someone would hold a belief that even to them makes God seem unfair, over one that would make God seem fair, is beyond me. But it would not surprise me if you would do just that. You have to tell me how your understanding of God is fair roli, not that it is but you don't know how.

Looks like you are trying to avoid all of my questions by saying this. You are basically just saying: "I believe that my God is fair, so any beleifs I have that contradict this, I do not have to explain because my God is fair."

Its a poor excuse for a reason to say that why I am not seeing the "truth" is because of my ignorance. Its actually pretty funny to hear that coming from a creationist Christian.

Why is God and "His" way of salvation any different, as if he has to explain every detail of every plan and purpose he sets in motion,when so many others throughout history have found God and his plan for their life without all their questions answered, their "T"s crossed and "i"s dotted

Finally we might be getting onto something. You are saying people become Christian without receiving answers to vital questions, you are saying that people become Christian without doing anything that really requires any effort. You know what that's called roli? Its called faith, and whether or not a belief that is based on faith is true, is nothing but sheer luck - therefore it cannot be rewarded. Unless of course (like you are saying) God punishes/rewards based on sheer luck. I have no problem with someone having faith, I have faith in many things. But to say that one persons belief based on faith will IN ANY WAY be favoured over an other persons belief based on EQUAL faith, ONLY because one was false and one was true, is insane and makes ZERO sense.

He has made the plan of salvation available and accessible to all who would come after it,but it take a brokeness of spirit and humility of the ego and denying of self to enter into this place of rest.
Do they understand fully why he does the things he does or does'nt do, not always,but they have an inner confidence and assurance through the Holy Spirit of his promises and his words of life being true.
They have met God and no man can take that from the one who comes to that revelation and that free gift called"salvation"
1Cr 1:26For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, [are called]:But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;God chose things despised by the world, things counted as nothing at all, and used them to bring to nothing what the world considers important,

It's His perrogative to do as he pleases and he must have reason why he does what he does, but I'm sure it will be made clear someday.

Looks like you are finally admitting that you do not know, I have no problem with this. But if you don't know then you cannot really continue to say that God will in anyway favour Christians over non-Christian - because you don't know why, you have no reason to have this belief. To keep a belief that you have no reason to believe, is a whole new level of ignorance.

Christians who do not have a reason to believe that God will favour them over an equally devoutful, equally honest, equally passionate, equally loving, equally believing Hindu, will not believe that he will, they will just say they don't know - for they have no reason to believe. Why don't you just say you don't know, instead of saying that God WILL favour Christians. I'm not asking you to stop being a Christian, or to stop spreading Christianity, there are PLENTY of reasons to do those things. I'm just asking you to stop spreading and holding a belief, that you have no reason to have and that makes no sense. To me its pretty insane to hold on to a belief that makes no sense, and whenever someone points this out just use the excuse "God will make it clear some day". God does not have to make it clear some day. It can be clear NOW, it can make sense NOW - believing that ALL God believers go to heaven MAKES SENSE.

.BTW,it's not faith in a relgion that God accepts and it is this point that you keep tripping up on.

Yes it is. Well, to you it is. If you disagree, please explain.

If it was based on our goodness, none of us would go to heaven.
Your confusion of one' being "good" preceeding salvation is extremely flawed and it proves the point Paul was making in
1Cr 2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I did not say that only being good would get one into heaven and I understand why you believe that it would not. I completely understand (and to a certain extent agree) that no human is good enough to spend eternity with God. My problem is that to some Christians, being good would not matter at all and neither would being bad. It would not matter because it is not what gets one into heaven or hell.

Do you understand this principal Holdem

I understand what you have said, but I would not call it a principle. You are basically saying that "you are proving/have proved that my God is unfair, but this is just through human reasoning. I believe that God is fair, but I just do not understand how, it will all be made clear someday". Your claiming to have a belief that you have to reason to have, that you yourself do not understand/cannot explain and at the same time agree with the argument against that belief.

You need to give me answers and reason, not just say "I believe that God would favour Christians but have no idea why". There is nothing wrong with not knowing. What you should be saying is what many (and as riverwolf says, most) Christians are saying - that: "I have no reason to believe that God will favour Christians, therefore I don't know/cant say whether or not he will." Remember, saying/admitting this does NOT make you any less of a Christian.

RiverWolf you are also welcome to answer this (putting your "narrow minded Christian head" on of course ), since I tend to understand you better than roli.

 

[HoldemDB9]

Paul gives a reason: because of the coming wrath of God.

Now... is there a PRACTICAL reason?

Well... since when have mythological-based religions been practical?

And I doubt roli would agree that his religion/beleifs are not practical, therefore he needs to give practical reasons. If he admitted that his beleifs were not practical/do not make sense (which as I pointed out in my above reply, looks like he is saying) then he could give reasons that are not practical/do not make sense. But you cannot have it both ways, i.e., have beleifs that you claim to be practical, but give reasons that are not practical.

Which is why I believe using the word "faith" is inappropriate, because so many have more than "faith"; assurance is a very different thing.

Like I said though, they don't have complete 100% assurance of what they claim to have assurance in. That would be impossible, since different people would then be/are 100% sure on contradicting things. Faith is still at the base of even these "100% assurances".

 

[Riverwolf]

RiverWolf you are also welcome to answer this (putting your "narrow minded Christian head" on of course ), since I tend to understand you better than roli.

Probably because I'm also an observer, and, for the most part, agree with you.

I'll admit, however, that part of the reason I'm defending "narrow-minded Christians" is partially to help me understand them myself.

I may disagree with the reasoning, or lack thereof, that some people use to defend their beliefs, but I respect them nonetheless.

But I'll leave roli to answer most of these issues this time.

However, here's what I've gotten from roli: mankind has no hope of getting into heaven, because all mankind sins. Therefore, in his love, God sent/became Christ to save mankind from his own sin, by teaching absolute faith in Him, and allow mankind into heaven.

Basically Christ would play devil's advocate for the sinners who held faith in Him, and speak on their behalf. Through this, the faithful would have their slates wiped clean, and they'd be allowed into heaven.

I think.

So a person would not be sent to hell because of their belief or lack thereof, but because of their sins. Since every man sins, every man, regardless of beliefs(even Christians), would be sent to hell, unless they fully believed with all their hearts in the Savior and did what he taught. And believe me: a lot of Christians I've talked to have said that they were almost certainly going to go to hell.

 

[Riverwolf]

And I doubt roli would agree that his religion/beleifs are not practical, therefore he needs to give practical reasons. If he admitted that his beleifs were not practical/do not make sense (which as I pointed out in my above reply, looks like he is saying) then he could give reasons that are not practical/do not make sense. But you cannot have it both ways, i.e., have beleifs that you claim to be practical, but give reasons that are not practical.

Thing is, they probably define practical differently than we do, because to them, the mythology of Christ is as real as any other historical event.