Why God created people that are destined for Hell...

[HoldemDB9]

I was talking about the God in which I have placed my eternal soul and earthly life in, turns and tells me I am doomed because I did'nt believe in Islam,which his word expressedly spoke against many of the doctrines they adhere to.

roli you are still assuming that Christianity is true and that your God exists. I said in my question "If Islam is TRUE...". Your God can not turn and tell you anything, because he does not exist. Your God cannot be a liar, because he did not exist to tell any lies. If we are assuming that Islam is true, then there is no such thing as your Gods "word" any more.

So please answer, what do you think of the God that I described? You know, then one who is going to favour Muslims who tried LESS than you to find truth ONLY because they got lucky and happened to be right. What do you think of such a God roli?

 

[HoldemDB9]

What are they doing that makes God happy? They are accepting His offer that no other religion has offered(or so they think): salvation from the coming wrath of God.

This can not make God happy. This cannot make God favour them. Because whether or not the offer that they believe they've accepted actually exists, is pure chance. At this very moment Islam and Christianity are giving me an offer, which one do I choose? Should I guess? Of course not, I should attempt to get it right.

God cannot favour someone ONLY because they had faith in the religion which happened to be true. He cannot favour someone who accepted Christianity over someone who just as honestly and passionately accepted Islam, JUST because Christianity actually exists. There has to be something in the process of accepting Christianity that will make God favour you over someone who accepted Islam. There has to be something, otherwise no reward can be given.

Its like if God popped into the sky and said to all that they have to pick a colour that they believe he is going to pick out of a bag. God also tell us that we will never be able to completely know which colour he is going to pick out, we must have faith in one of the colours to be picked. Now (after we have picked) he says that he is going to reward all who chose red and he is going to punish all who chose any other colour, REGARDLESS of how or why they came to choose their colour. This of course would be completely and utterly 100% unfair.

Now if those who tried harder to find which ball was going to be picked, got it right, then God could reward those for getting it right. If those who searched more honestly or truthfully to find the truth, got it right, then God could reward those for getting it right. But he cannot just reward them for NO OTHER REASON other than "they were right". See how there has to be something good that all who got it right did, that all others did not do, in order for God to judge us based on whether or not we found truth? No Christian has EVER gave me even a little something. That is all I'm asking for, JUST ONE THING that is causing God to favour Christians over non-Christians. And things like "they accepted Jesus" or "they were right" are NOT reasons.

I don't see anything wrong with this analogy. This is how all religions who say that God will favour believers over non-believers, are portraying God to be. They have beliefs that are based on faith and they believe that if these beleifs turn out to be true they will be rewarded, ONLY because they happened to be right. I think it comes from the fact that in life, people who get things right usually get rewarded - regardless how of they came to get it right. But life is not at all fair, God would be. Do you understand?

 

[Riverwolf]

This can not make God happy. This cannot make God favour them. Because whether or not the offer that they believe they've accepted actually exists, is pure chance. At this very moment Islam and Christianity are giving me an offer, which one do I choose? Should I guess? Of course not, I should attempt to get it right.

God cannot favour someone ONLY because they had faith in the religion which happened to be true. He cannot favour someone who accepted Christianity over someone who just as honestly and passionately accepted Islam, JUST because Christianity actually exists. There has to be something in the process of accepting Christianity that will make God favour you over someone who accepted Islam. There has to be something, otherwise no reward can be given.

Yes there is. God himself tells you personally whether you're right or wrong.

Its like if God popped into the sky and said to all that they have to pick a colour that they believe he is going to pick out of a bag. God also tell us that we will never be able to completely know which colour he is going to pick out, we must have faith in one of the colours to be picked. Now (after we have picked) he says that he is going to reward all who chose red and he is going to punish all who chose any other colour, REGARDLESS of how or why they came to choose their colour. This of course would be completely and utterly 100% unfair.

Now if those who tried harder to find which ball was going to be picked, got it right, then God could reward those for getting it right. If those who searched more honestly or truthfully to find the truth, got it right, then God could reward those for getting it right. But he cannot just reward them for NO OTHER REASON other than "they were right". See how there has to be something good that all who got it right did, that all others did not do, in order for God to judge us based on whether or not we found truth? No Christian has EVER gave me even a little something. That is all I'm asking for, JUST ONE THING that is causing God to favour Christians over non-Christians. And things like "they accepted Jesus" or "they were right" are NOT reasons.

I don't see anything wrong with this analogy. This is how all religions who say that God will favour believer over non-believers , are portraying God to be. Do you understand?

Yes I understand your analogy and what you're saying, and I say it's inaccurate to what's going on. Your analogy is based on Christian/Muslim faith in their book alone, and no other source, in which case it is mere chance.

However, what you're not understanding is that God has personally told them that their faith is true. Therefore, as I said, "faith" is not a good word to use, because "faith" basically implies blind trust, which is not what's going on at all.

Using your analogy, it's closer that God people who have chosen the correct color are told they have gotten it right before God actually pulls it out, and what I'm reading in the Abrahamic books, God is pulling out more than one color: one for Judaism, one for Christianity, one for Islam, etc.

 

[HoldemDB9]

Yes there is. God himself tells you personally whether you're right or wrong.

Am I right in saying that you don't actually believe this, you are just trying to explain to me what Christians believe? Either way, this is completely insane. So the God of the Bible is telling all of the Muslims that they are wrong, yet they continue to follow Islam?

Yes I understand your analogy and what you're saying, and I say it's inaccurate to what's going on. Your analogy is based on Christian/Muslim faith in their book alone, and no other source, in which case it is mere chance.

However, what you're not understanding is that God has personally told them that their faith is true. Therefore, as I said, "faith" is not a good word to use, because "faith" basically implies blind trust, which is not what's going on at all.

You've lost me. Ok its fine that they believe that God has told them that they are right, I have no problem with that. But what about all of the non-Christians? Obviously God has not told them which religion is true, otherwise they would have converted. And if God is telling them, then how is it a choice to choose a religion? That's what its all about isn't it - CHOOSING the right way? Its hardly a choice if God is straight out telling them which way is true.

Also for anyone who actually believes this, why is it that almost all religious people born in America believe that it is the God of Christianity who is assuring them, but almost all born in Saudi Arabia believe that it is the God of Islam who is assuring them? Just a coincidence?

Using your analogy, it's closer that God people who have chosen the correct color are told they have gotten it right before God actually pulls it out, and what I'm reading in the Abrahamic books, God is pulling out more than one color: one for Judaism, one for Christianity, one for Islam, etc.

Which is why I have absolutely no problem with the belief that all religions will be rewarded equally. But some like roli are saying that God will only pull out one colour. Also, who on earth would pick a wrong colour if God has already told them which is right?
Even though believers believe that God is "telling them" that there faith is true, I still do not see a problem with my analogy. There are hundreds of different religions who are saying that God is "telling them" that their faith is true. If the ones who are actually right are going to be favoured, then why? What have they done that is so good that all of the other have not done? The whole point still remains.

 

[HoldemDB9]

However, what you're not understanding is that God has personally told them that their faith is true. Therefore, as I said, "faith" is not a good word to use, because "faith" basically implies blind trust, which is not what's going on at all.

Also, I asked what they are doing that is causing God to favour them, not how are they so sure that they are right. There are obviously people who are just as sure that they are right (who think that God is talking to them), why would God favour those who were actually right? What have they done better?

 

[Riverwolf]

Am I right in saying that you don't actually believe this, you are just trying to explain to me what Christians believe? Either way, this is completely insane. So the God of the Bible is telling all of the Muslims that they are wrong, yet they continue to follow Islam?

You are correct in that I don't actually believe this; I don't believe the gods interact with us in any way.

Apparently, God only shows up when you've gotten it right.

I, too, think it's illogical. But that's what's apparently going on, so I don't waste my breath trying to justify it.

You've lost me. Ok its fine that they believe that God has told them that they are right, I have no problem with that. But what about all of the non-Christians? Obviously God has not told them which religion is true, otherwise they would have converted. And if God is telling them, then how is it a choice to choose a religion? That's what its all about isn't it - CHOOSING the right way? Its hardly a choice if God is straight out telling them which way is true.

Also for anyone who actually believes this, why is it that almost all religious people born in America believe that it is the God of Christianity who is assuring them, but almost all born in Saudi Arabia believe that it is the God of Islam who is assuring them? Just a coincidence?

How about God is talking to all of them, and it's just us stupid humans who misinterpret that he's talking to us to mean that he's not talking to anyone else?

Therefore why doesn't God tell us that he's with them as well? Because he shouldn't have to. That's our issue, not His.

Which is why I have absolutely no problem with the belief that all religions will be rewarded equally. But some like roli are saying that God will only pull out one colour. Also, who on earth would pick a wrong colour if God has already told them which is right?

Someone who was tricked by an impostor into thinking that God would be pulling out what they thought was the right color.

Have you noticed that God has thus far sent four sets of holy books? First the Torah through Moses, then the Gospel through Jesus, then the Qur'an through Mohammad, then the Kitab-I-Aqdas through Baha'u'llah. Therefore four times has God said what color he's going to pull out, and at least three times man has mistaken it. (Baha'i is too young to know whether or not it's been corrupted yet; I don't think so)

...Okay, five times if you count the Book of Mormon.

Even though believers believe that God is "telling them" that there faith is true, I still do not see a problem with my analogy. There are hundreds of different religions who are saying that God is "telling them" that their faith is true. If the ones who are actually right are going to be favoured, then why? What have they done that is so good that all of the other have not done? The whole point still remains.

That kind of logic doesn't add up with me, either, and therefore I also think it's illogical to think that God plays favorites, when EVERY SINGLE holy book He's ever allegedly sent expressly states that he DOES NOT play favorites; Paul says this many, many times.

But other people disagree with me. You know what? They're allowed to disagree with me. They're allowed to think that they're the only ones who will be rewarded. It's not my place to tell them otherwise.

 

[Riverwolf]

Also, I asked what they are doing that is causing God to favour them, not how are they so sure that they are right. There are obviously people who are just as sure that they are right (who think that God is talking to them), why would God favour those who were actually right? What have they done better?

Accepted the hand of Jesus.

I don't agree with it either, but that's what many Christians believe they've done that others have not done.

It's as simple as that.

Based on my own logic, I, too, think that would not be enough. But I'm not one to speak for any of the gods. If that's enough for God, then that's enough for God. Why waste my breath trying to fight it?

 

[Sententia]

You are correct in that I don't actually believe this; I don't believe the gods interact with us in any way.

Really? Hmmm

How about God is talking to all of them, and it's just us stupid humans who misinterpret that he's talking to us to mean that he's not talking to anyone else?

Or does he interact but were too stupid to notice or to properly interpret... what exactly...

How does god try to talk to us? Is it the humming of a bees wings, the nut job on the corner? He doesnt communicate with us except he does? Jumping in late here but how does this line of logic run exactly?

 

[HoldemDB9]

You are correct in that I don't actually believe this; I don't believe the gods interact with us in any way.

Apparently, God only shows up when you've gotten it right.

I, too, think it's illogical. But that's what's apparently going on, so I don't waste my breath trying to justify it.

Ok fine.

How about God is talking to all of them, and it's just us stupid humans who misinterpret that he's talking to us to mean that he's not talking to anyone else?

Therefore why doesn't God tell us that he's with them as well? Because he shouldn't have to. That's our issue, not His.

Someone who was tricked by an impostor into thinking that God would be pulling out what they thought was the right color.

Have you noticed that God has thus far sent four sets of holy books? First the Torah through Moses, then the Gospel through Jesus, then the Qur'an through Mohammad, then the Kitab-I-Aqdas through Baha'u'llah. Therefore four times has God said what color he's going to pull out, and at least three times man has mistaken it. (Baha'i is too young to know whether or not it's been corrupted yet; I don't think so)

...Okay, five times if you count the Book of Mormon.

I don't see any problem with any of this. But the problem is, the Christians I have a problem with don't believe any of this.

That kind of logic doesn't add up with me, either, and therefore I also think it's illogical to think that God plays favorites, when EVERY SINGLE holy book He's ever allegedly sent expressly states that he DOES NOT play favorites; Paul says this many, many times.

But other people disagree with me. You know what? They're allowed to disagree with me. They're allowed to think that they're the only ones who will be rewarded. It's not my place to tell them otherwise.

I have no problem with people who disagree with me. There are plenty of Christians on this forum who disagree with me on loads on things, but they can say why they disagree. It is people who argue against you, without any reason to and when there is no real way to disagree, who annoy me. roli for example, is arguing that God favours Christians over non-Christians, but he himself cannot give me ONE reason as to why God would do this.

Accepted the hand of Jesus.

I don't agree with it either, but that's what many Christians believe they've done that others have not done.

It's as simple as that.

Based on my own logic, I, too, think that would not be enough. But I'm not one to speak for any of the gods. If that's enough for God, then that's enough for God. Why waste my breath trying to fight it?

But the thing is, they cannot just think this - because it makes no sense. And I know you are just going to say that it makes no sense to me, but its not just me. They themselves (without realizing it) explain how it makes no sense, yet when I point it out they don't reply, its ridiculous.

It is not just a disagreement, its impossible. Its impossible for one person to be favoured over an other for NO reason. Which is why I want just one reason, but I'm getting no answers. Simply accepting the religion which happened to be true is not a reason. For me, its not about disagreeing with roli, its about how it is even possible to disagree with me. I don't see how it is possible to disagree with me on this matter, I'm basically pointing out facts. If I can just be shown how it is possible to disagree with me, then I will move on accepting that we have a disagreement.

 

[Riverwolf]

Or does he interact but were too stupid to notice or to properly interpret... what exactly...

How does god try to talk to us? Is it the humming of a bees wings, the nut job on the corner? He doesnt communicate with us except he does? Jumping in late here but how does this line of logic run exactly?

You're right.

It's pretty obvious to me that God does not speak to us with words, but rather with feeling and emotion. That's how I've communicated with the gods in the past. (yeah, I know I said just now that I don't believe they interact with us; that's what I believe NOW, not what I believed six months ago)

And yes, we humans are just to stupid to see what's right in front of our eyes. But that does make sense; there is a theory that if our brains don't know about something, they won't register it. Have you ever torn the house apart looking for something only to discover it was in your hand all along? or on the kitchen counter out in the open?

Therefore a human who doesn't know how God is talking to them, will not recognize that God is talking to them. (just like in Bruce Almighty)

 

[Riverwolf]

I don't see any problem with any of this. But the problem is, the Christians I have a problem with don't believe any of this.

So? Let them not believe.

I have no problem with people who disagree with me. There are plenty of Christians on this forum who disagree with me on loads on things, but they can say why they disagree. It is people who argue against you, without any reason to and when there is no real way to disagree, who annoy me. roli for example, is arguing that God favours Christians over non-Christians, but he himself cannot give me ONE reason as to why God would do this.

He's giving you what he believes to be reasons that you deny to be reasons. It's like you asking for a movie about zombies but what you get is a movie that doesn't have any brain-eating living dead in it but so-called "mall zombies" instead, and saying that what you got is not a zombie movie.

But the thing is, they cannot just think this - because it makes no sense. And I know you are just going to say that it makes no sense to me, but its not just me. They themselves (without realizing it) explain how it makes no sense, yet when I point it out they don't reply, its ridiculous.

It is not just a disagreement, its impossible. Its impossible for one person to be favoured over an other for NO reason. Which is why I want just one reason, but I'm getting no answers. Simply accepting the religion which happened to be true is not a reason. For me, its not about disagreeing with roli, its about how it is even possible to disagree with me. I don't see how it is possible to disagree with me on this matter, I'm basically pointing out facts. If I can just be shown how it is possible to disagree with me, then I will move on accepting that we have a disagreement.

As I said, PRETEND FOR A SECOND YOU DON'T KNOW ABOUT OTHER RELIGIONS!! Now pretend that you've grown up in a small city, with only the Christian way of life, and no other outside influences. In your mind, there's no way anything could be any different and be as good as the life you lead. You don't know that other ways of life are just as wonderful and in many cases very, very similar.

As long as all the knowledge of other religions blinds you to the way these people think, you'll never understand them.

...But I guess it's easy for me because as a young teenager I used to live in my own little world myself, believing in a video-game based mythology, having no knowledge whatsoever of other religions other than the fact that they existed, and yet so SURE that they were all wrong and that I was right.

I was wrong. And I was wrong by my own fault, because I chose not to try and understand other religions while making up one for myself that was wholly based on video-games, childhood movies, and my own stuffed animals and toys. (the only elements of that silliness which has survived to my current beliefs are the idea of the living Gaia, and the idea that all gods ever worshiped exist, but even the latter has changed drastically from then to now)

 

[Sententia]

You're right.

It's pretty obvious to me that God does not speak to us with words, but rather with feeling and emotion. That's how I've communicated with the gods in the past. (yeah, I know I said just now that I don't believe they interact with us; that's what I believe NOW, not what I believed six months ago)

And yes, we humans are just to stupid to see what's right in front of our eyes. But that does make sense; there is a theory that if our brains don't know about something, they won't register it. Have you ever torn the house apart looking for something only to discover it was in your hand all along? or on the kitchen counter out in the open?

Therefore a human who doesn't know how God is talking to them, will not recognize that God is talking to them. (just like in Bruce Almighty)

So when I step on a nail because some dumb *** who put in my carpets is unskilled and I experience the emotion and feeling of pain that is god talking to me? How does god talk to us with feeling and emotion?

I am guessing that since you have communicated with gods in the past you have something in particular in mind that will be down right condemning and easily proven to a skeptic like me.

 

[HoldemDB9]

He's giving you what he believes to be reasons that you deny to be reasons. It's like you asking for a movie about zombies but what you get is a movie that doesn't have any brain-eating living dead in it but so-called "mall zombies" instead, and saying that what you got is not a zombie movie.

I don't think its like this. The reasons he is giving me are so obviously not actual reasons, that I cant believe he honestly believes they are. I suspect he is giving them because there are no reasons. Which would explain why he has not even replied (same with most Christians when I bring stuff like this up) to the questions that I really want answered.

As I said, PRETEND FOR A SECOND YOU DON'T KNOW ABOUT OTHER RELIGIONS!! Now pretend that you've grown up in a small city, with only the Christian way of life, and no other outside influences. In your mind, there's no way anything could be any different and be as good as the life you lead. You don't know that other ways of life are just as wonderful and in many cases very, very similar.

As long as all the knowledge of other religions blinds you to the way these people think, you'll never understand them.

Why pretend though? People like roli have not been brought up like this, he knows about other religions. If you are trying to get me to think like roli for a second its not gonna happen. I can not possibly bring myself to believe something without one single reason to believe it. That right there, is pure delusion.

 

[Riverwolf]

So when I step on a nail because some dumb *** who put in my carpets is unskilled and I experience the emotion and feeling of pain that is god talking to me? How does god talk to us with feeling and emotion?

LOL Not quite. The feeling comes from the outside, but is internal nonetheless. It's like a telepath trying to put their emotions and thoughts into you.

I can't really explain it. But there are many things about the human mind that nobody can explain, such as emotion itself.

I am guessing that since you have communicated with gods in the past you have something in particular in mind that will be down right condemning and easily proven to a skeptic like me.

Nope.

If I did, I'd be extremely disappointed in other, more devout theists, who were unable to provide with such information.

Not to mention, if I did have such information and nobody else did, it probably means I'm... "special".

 

[Riverwolf]

I don't think its like this. The reasons he is giving me are so obviously not actual reasons, that I cant believe he honestly believes they are. I suspect he is giving them because there are no reasons. Which would explain why he has not even replied (same with most Christians when I bring stuff like this up) to the questions that I really want answered.

Well, clearly he does, and therefore it might be a good idea to put yourself into his shoes, so that you can understand it.

Because I see his answers clearly.

BTW, maybe he hasn't replied yet because he's currently AFK. Or maybe he's just given up because he's already given what he believes to be answers and doesn't feel like repeating himself.

Why pretend though? People like roli have not been brought up like this, he knows about other religions. If you are trying to get me to think like roli for a second its not gonna happen. I can not possibly bring myself to believe something without one single reason to believe it. That right there, is pure delusion.

Why pretend? So that you can answer your own questions.

Otherwise you'll remain simply unable to understand these people. Just like they are unable to understand you.

BTW, yes you can. Just because something is hard and uncomfortable, doesn't mean it's impossible. Things of the mind are only as hard as you want them to be. (unless you're talking about telekinetic or telepathic abilities )

 

[HoldemDB9]

Because I see his answers clearly.

Respones, yes. Words, yes. Answers, no. I said earlier that if anyone can see where he has actually answered then please point it out. All I want to know is:

What he thinks about the God that I described.

What all Christians have done/are doing than will cause God to favour them over all others. And like I said, "because they were right" or "they've accepted Jesus" is not an answer.

If God would favour a non-Christian who tried harder to find truth over a Christian who tried less. And if such people exist.

Does he agree that whether or not a belief that is based on faith is true, is pure luck. And does he agree that this is how God will reward/punish us based on these beliefs.

Since we all have an equal chance to choose Christianity and we all can be held accountable for not following once we have simply heard of the Bible, why is it that almost everyone born in Saudi Arabia has "chose" Islam and almost everyone born in the USA has "chose" Christianity.

I completely understand if you don't go through this lengthy thread and find the answers to these questions, that is not your job. But Ive read every word in this thread and roli has not answered any of these questions.

 

[Sententia]

LOL Not quite. The feeling comes from the outside, but is internal nonetheless. It's like a telepath trying to put their emotions and thoughts into you.

Telepaths are fictional... Are you saying the experience would be fictional or are you saying in addition to communicating with 'gods' via experiences you cant relate to me you also know that telepaths are indeed not fictional?

I am confused as I did recently see the movie push but that movie is fiction not just because of the plot but also because of the abilities in it were fictional. It would be like neo flying or me hovering because I tired of walking.

Im not grasping how the feeling comes from the outside differeration either. In my original example I stepped on a nail which came from... the outside of me I guess... It caused an internal sensation of pain but how is that different from what you're describing?

 

[HoldemDB9]

Otherwise you'll remain simply unable to understand these people. Just like they are unable to understand you.

I understand what they are saying, but it does not make sense. And I don't see any reason to think that they don't understand me. Ive tried my best to just give out solid facts, I have no beliefs to defend. If I hear an argument that makes more sense, then I will obviously side with that argument. roli has already himself said once in this thread that a certain belief that other Christians have, makes more sense than the beliefs he has, yet he still sticks with the one that makes less sense.

BTW, yes you can. Just because something is hard and uncomfortable, doesn't mean it's impossible. Things of the mind are only as hard as you want them to be.

Ive tried but I cant. I cannot beleive that God will favour Christians over non-Christians unless I have just some reason to believe that he will.

How can I believe something if I have absolutely no reason to? roli this question also applies to you, since you believe God will favour Christians over non-Christians without a reason to beleive this.

 

[Draka]

Um, I've heard words.

And...everyone has the ability to be telepathic. Just not all know how to tap into that ability.

 

[Riverwolf]

Telepaths are fictional... Are you saying the experience would be fictional or are you saying in addition to communicating with 'gods' via experiences you cant relate to me you also know that telepaths are indeed not fictional?

Whether or not telepaths are fictional is beside the point. I can relate some experiences, but I'm too tired right now. Maybe later.

I am confused as I did recently see the movie push but that movie is fiction not just because of the plot but also because of the abilities in it were fictional. It would be like neo flying or me hovering because I tired of walking.

Never heard of it. I was actually sorta thinking of Professor X, though he does telepathically communicate with words.

Try to imagine it like that, except with feelings instead.

Im not grasping how the feeling comes from the outside differeration either. In my original example I stepped on a nail which came from... the outside of me I guess... It caused an internal sensation of pain but how is that different from what you're describing?

It's hard to explain. You have to use your imagination.