Why God created people that are destined for Hell...

[McBell]

I'm not arguing for roli, I'm just tired of you stereotyping all Christians into one narrow minded belief system.

I concur.
Though I also agree with HoldemDB9 in that Roli has not answered the question.

The Lord said, Judgement is his and we have been told not to judge others and to treat our neighbors as we would yourself.

What?

The Bible is an instruction book on how to correctly judge others.
Where does the Bible say you are not judge?
It isn't the verse Judge not lest ye be judged.
For when taken in context, it means that you best meet the same standards you use to judge others for those are the standards that God will use to judge you.

The Lord did not say treat your neighbor kindly unless they are a Muslim now did he?

Are we talking OT or NT?

It is not for us to try and figure out what our Lord and Saviour will do when it comes to other religions.

Fair enough.

You do realise we worship the same God right?

Opinions differ.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Opinions differ.

Opinions are like butt holes, everyone has one and most stink. :yes:

 

[HoldemDB9]

I'm not arguing for roli, I'm just tired of you stereotyping all Christians into one narrow minded belief system.

Rick I'm not putting all Christians into one category, when did I say this? I don't think I have any problem with your beleifs. My problem is with the narrow minded Christians.

The Lord said, Judgement is his and we have been told not to judge others and to treat our neighbors as we would yourself.

Great.

The Lord did not say treat your neighbor kindly unless they are a Muslim now did he?

Nope I don't think so.

It is not for us to try and figure out what our Lord and Saviour will do when it comes to other religions. You do realise we worship the same God right?

Well I personally believe that all religions worship the same God, but not all Christians agree. Im sure roli would disagree. I've already said that I have no problem with Christian like you who just say that they don't know.

But some say that ONLY Christians will go to heaven, NOBODY else. And the ONLY way to get to heaven is to believe in Jesus. Its as simply as that: those who believe get rewarded and those who don't get punished, regardless of how they came to have their beliefs, its crazy.

 

[McBell]

Opinions are like butt holes, everyone has one and most stink. :yes:

I agree.
sad that it is most often the smelliest ones that stubbornly ignore all others.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I agree.
sad that it is most often the smelliest ones that stubbornly ignore all others.

God designed the smelliest butt holes that way for a reason. This way we could change our direction before actually meeting up with them.

 

[challupa]

Roli, this statement of yours makes no practical sense to me.

"It's called "justification" every person who stands before a court of law without acception,requires the judge to justify them from the demands of the law and be freed,Christ ,alone has accomplished that.
Your standing before a judge,you seriously broke the law, the verdict is in ,"your guilty", the sentenced has been imposed, but out of no where,someone you don't even know steps up and says, "I will pay the price to free this man,I will take his place and serve his punishment,the law has been satisfied,justice is served....you either accept it,as it's already payed and you stand free....or you stand there and argue with the judge that it's not fair and that there must be another way, it's not that simple"

The reason why it makes no sense to me is this: Say there is a pedophile standing in a court room before a judge and he is found guilty of horrific acts against children. Because I am an all loving all forgiving person I walk up and say, I will take this person's sentence, please set him free. What I am doing in reality is setting a lose a pedophile back into the community to keep doing exactly everything they were once doing.

There is no where in the bible that states once Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the world that they would not continue to sin after the fact. So what is the point of dying for someone who has no intention of changing anything they are doing. It defeats the purpose I would think.

 

[Riverwolf]

Well I personally believe that all religions worship the same God, but not all Christians agree. Im sure roli would disagree...

And why do you care about what roli or other like-minded Christians believe?

Roli believes what roli believes, you believe what you believe, and since both of you are just repeating yourselves over and over again, what's the point of going on?

Especially since Paul's letters are the best source of answers. Paul answered these questions better than any Christian. (why do you think they keep quoting the Bible?) But you've got to read with an open mind, forgetting that the dogma of modern Chrisitanity ever existed. Believe me, forgetting the dogma is not as difficult as it sounds. (It might help to read through eastern books first, like Dhammapada or Tao Te Ching)

 

[Riverwolf]

Roli, this statement of yours makes no practical sense to me.

"It's called "justification" every person who stands before a court of law without acception,requires the judge to justify them from the demands of the law and be freed,Christ ,alone has accomplished that.
Your standing before a judge,you seriously broke the law, the verdict is in ,"your guilty", the sentenced has been imposed, but out of no where,someone you don't even know steps up and says, "I will pay the price to free this man,I will take his place and serve his punishment,the law has been satisfied,justice is served....you either accept it,as it's already payed and you stand free....or you stand there and argue with the judge that it's not fair and that there must be another way, it's not that simple"

The reason why it makes no sense to me is this: Say there is a pedophile standing in a court room before a judge and he is found guilty of horrific acts against children. Because I am an all loving all forgiving person I walk up and say, I will take this person's sentence, please set him free. What I am doing in reality is setting a lose a pedophile back into the community to keep doing exactly everything they were once doing.

There is no where in the bible that states once Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the world that they would not continue to sin after the fact. So what is the point of dying for someone who has no intention of changing anything they are doing. It defeats the purpose I would think.

Hence why Jesus taught that you have to repent first.

 

[challupa]

Hence why Jesus taught that you have to repent first.

Yes, but repenting gives no guarentee that they won't do it again. I know what you are saying, but the practicality makes no sense and in a sense it prevents the offender from really learning from their own mistakes eventually. Taking punishment for someone else means that person never has to work at coming to the conclusion there might be a better way to walk through the world. Repenting and putting your faith in Jesus does not require anything other than faith and very little individual spiritual work needs to take place. That's how I see it anyway.

 

[Riverwolf]

Yes, but repenting gives no guarentee that they won't do it again. I know what you are saying, but the practicality makes no sense and in a sense it prevents the offender from really learning from their own mistakes eventually. Taking punishment for someone else means that person never has to work at coming to the conclusion there might be a better way to walk through the world. Repenting and putting your faith in Jesus does not require anything other than faith and very little individual spiritual work needs to take place. That's how I see it anyway.

Repenting is not just saying "Sorry. I screwed up. I won't do it again." I believe repenting is a lifelong process, and you haven't truly repented unless you make sure you never do it again. If you confess to the sin and then do it again, you have not repented.

That's how I see it, anyway.

 

[roli]

Pascals wager huh? It scares me to think that people actually respond like this, I don't even know where to start. roli there are other religions that are offering this, which one do I choose? What about someone who did their best to find truth but who did not accept the offer? What about someone who did not try at all to find truth, but who did accept the offer?

We are going in circles here. You can accept Jesus' offer but whether or not it actually exists, is NOTHING but sheer chance.

You are so far detached from the reality of God's presence in a believer's life through Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit and that a living personal relationship with God, is an ongoing active, mutual, intiment experiential reality that goes deeper then mere intellectual ascent, as you so earnestly attempt to do.
If this was faith alone and not a witness the Holy Spirit places in the deep resesses of a believer's spirit, then yes,it would be mere chance and I would therefore be a skeptic and reluctant to grasp the assurance of being accepted.

..but as it stands, I am not, based on this mere experience alone,
Rom 8:16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
1Jo 4:13Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
1Jo 3:24And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

....but the world can't comprehend the workings of the Holy Spirit
Jhn 14:17[Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

.....nothing is done in a christians life accept it be by the Holy Ghost
Jhn 14:26But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Jhn 15:26But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me
Jhn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Your response to these verses regarding the Holy Ghost will tell me where your at,so attempt to read them and come at this from another angle,because your obviously not accepting the answer that Jesus is the way to acceptance with the Father, that is according to the Christian faith.

Look at it from this perspective, I'm sure you will agree with me here. Imagine that when you die, you find out that Islam is in fact the true religion. God tells you that you are going to be punished simply because you refused the offer of Islam. He is going to reward millions of people who tried LESS than you to find truth ONLY because they accepted the offer of Islam. Do you feel like this God was being fair? This is EXACTLY how you are saying you God is

If that's the case, for argument's sake only,then the word of God and everything in it is a hoax, making God himself to be a liar and a false God and therefore I presume I will burn.
But thanks be to the witness of the Holy Spirit, you see that's the distinguishing factor among every other religion..the work and power of the Holy Ghost.
Like I said it's a deeper assurance and confidence we have then mere intellectual ascent.

 

[challupa]

Repenting is not just saying "Sorry. I screwed up. I won't do it again." I believe repenting is a lifelong process, and you haven't truly repented unless you make sure you never do it again. If you confess to the sin and then do it again, you have not repented.

That's how I see it, anyway.

In some denominations of Christianity that's what's required, but others don't actually do that. Also, If you need to repent for life, not too many I have met have been able to do that which leads me to believe none of us are destined for heaven given the strict guidelines to getting admitted.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

I disagree.
Judges 11:29 -39 describes a deal with God that He (God) receive a human sacrifice.

First of all, God does not approve of human sacrifice (Leviticus 18:21; Leviticus 20:2-5; Deuteronomy 12:31; Deuteronomy 18:10).

Jepthah may very well have been using 'sacrifice' in a figurative way. Hannah gave her son to the Lord: "But Hannah went not up; for she said unto her husband, I will not go up until the child be weaned, and then I will bring him, that he may appear before the LORD, and there abide for ever."(1 Samuel 1:22)

Anna, in the New Testament, served the Lord: "And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day." (Luke 2:37). Now even if Jepthah had sacrificed his daughter as a human sacrifice in the way you are indicating, there is no verse that claims the Lord approved or was pleased.

 

[Draka]

If your version of what you believe god to be "knows all" and "is not constrained by time" then logic would dictate that that god would know your decisions before you make them. So even if you feel you have "free will" to make whatever choices you want then god still knows what those choices are going to be. Doesn't mean that god makes them for you, but just knows already what you are going to do. So, therefore, if god knows beforehand that someone is going to choose not to believe in him or that they are going to sin...and you believe everyone is created by god...then god created certain people to not believe in him and to sin and...thus...to go to hell (if you believe that god sends people to such a place).

So I happen to think that the question of why a god, described as "all-knowing", would do such a thing as send people to "hell" for their choices or beliefs, is a VERY good question.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

There is no where in the bible that states once Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the world that they would not continue to sin after the fact. So what is the point of dying for someone who has no intention of changing anything they are doing. It defeats the purpose I would think.

When God begins to change an individual, He doesn't say, "Oops! You messed up on Tuesday. I'm not helping you anymore!" Instead, He will chastise that person and give him the strength that is necessary to overcome the many temptations that plague mankind.

"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:" Philippians 1:6

So what is the point of dying for someone who has no intention of changing anything they are doing.

"Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." (Titus 2:14)

 

[challupa]

When God begins to change an individual, He doesn't say, "Oops! You messed up on Tuesday. I'm not helping you anymore!" Instead, He will chastise that person and give him the strength that is necessary to overcome the many temptations that plague mankind.

"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:" Philippians 1:6



"Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." (Titus 2:14)

I realize that it would be ongoing work. I just don't see the point of taking on someone else's sins because how would that person ever learn?

Many non christians are "zealous of good works". It seems to me that no matter how much good you do in this life, unless you believe in Jesus and give your life to him, nothing you do matters and you will still go to hell. I would think that to be loving, compassionate and serving of others would be more important to God than believing in Jesus.

 

[roli]

]Roli, this statement of yours makes no practical sense to me.

Does the teachings and parables of Jesus along with that of the law and prophets make practical sense to you.
They have ruffled the feathers of many a great men and great minds down through the ages,provoking them to go to extremes eradicate everything about Christianity
Do you actually think God,in bringing salvation and redemption to the world, thought first to appeal to the logic and intellect of man making salvation appear practical and user freindly to the wicked ,unholy ,sinners of the world,
Jesus stirred the waters then with his message to the higher thinkers and religious folks,as his message still does to this day.
But it's actually quite simple this plan of salvation,
Mar 10:15Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

The reason why it makes no sense to me is this: Say there is a pedophile standing in a court room before a judge and he is found guilty of horrific acts against children. Because I am an all loving all forgiving person I walk up and say, I will take this person's sentence, please set him free. What I am doing in reality is setting a lose a pedophile back into the community to keep doing exactly everything they were once doing.

None of us can comprehend the grace,mercy and love of God that he has for mankind,knowing that they are utterly sinful and desperately wicked,but yet he still remains patient,longsuffering towards them ,not willing that any perish but all come to repentance.
God sees the potential of everyone of us ,not to condone pedophiles,rapists or murders,but Jesus came on the scene and said, looking at a woman or man with lust you commit adultry in your heart, hating someone,you commit murder.
It's a condition of the heart that God will weigh,not outward appearance or actions
1Sa 16:7But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for [the LORD seeth] not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

I don';t comprend the scale in which God uses to evaluate the state of each man's soul, but I must believe that man's standards of judging and evaluating and deeming someone worthy of condemnation or osostracization fail in comparison to God's love and grace. He must see the full picture with perfect love, but man knows not what that entails.

There is no where in the bible that states once Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the world that they would not continue to sin after the fact. So what is the point of dying for someone who has no intention of changing anything they are doing. It defeats the purpose I would think

God knows our make up and that we are wicked and depraved,but in saying that God had a plan of changing men's hearts and spoke this prophecy to Ekekiel:
Eze 11:19And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].
Eze 36:26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

..Joel's prophecy
Joe 2:28And it shall come to pass afterward, [that] I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

This promise Holy Spirit came when Jesus told his disciples to go to the upper room and wait for him
Luk 24:49 — And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
Jhn 14:16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Act 1:8 — But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

The promised Holy Spirit came to enter into the believer ,changing their hearts and giving them God's spirit.
Believers then took on the nature of God within, but they are still prone to sin and depravity because we still live in this earthen vessel.

But we have a new nature,new desires, new practices,new vocabulary, many things have changed ,but sin still is present.
The old things have passed away and new things have come
The difference is that we no longer desire to sin as our old nature once did and sit comfortably in it, the Holy Spirit convicts us and draws back to the advocate ,our father, who will forgive us if we fall into sin.

1Jo 1:8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

The difference is that we now have an advocate to wipe our sins away,we are dead to sin and alive in the spirit,but that does not mean we have a license to continue in sin.
Rom 6:1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Romans 6 is essential to understand a little more of what I am saying.

But again not everyone who says they are saved are actually saved ,Jesus makes that clear, they look good on the outside but by their deeds they prove to be something else,

 

[challupa]

Roli "I don';t comprend the scale in which God uses to evaluate the state of each man's soul, but I must believe that man's standards of judging and evaluating and deeming someone worthy of condemnation or osostracization fail in comparison to God's love and grace. He must see the full picture with perfect love, but man knows not what that entails."

I would have to agree with you on this. That is why I don't adhere to the belief that only those who believe in Jesus are granted final salvation I guess. I think God does evaluate the state of EACH person's soul and sees good in each one of us. I still cannot see how it could be otherwise. Just me I guess.

 

[roli]

I realize that it would be ongoing work. I just don't see the point of taking on someone else's sins because how would that person ever learn?

Many non christians are "zealous of good works". It seems to me that no matter how much good you do in this life, unless you believe in Jesus and give your life to him, nothing you do matters and you will still go to hell. I would think that to be loving, compassionate and serving of others would be more important to God than believing in Jesus.

Jesus took on himself, the penalty and power of sin that was due man and that which man could not possibly bare on his own.

God says man will die in their sin,they will perish for disobedience and idolatry.
This may not become crystal clear until we either have a revelation of Christ and our sin before a Holy God or we stand before him on judgment day.

Loving and serving others compassionately are noble praise worthy acts of kindness and love,but can not appease the denads of God's Holy law,the only price God accepts for sin and to redeem man and which is more sacred is blood .
That is why all through the bible God required blood sacrifice of man's perfect possessions,their cattle, which was esteemed with high value and determined the wealth of a man's household, but it showed the sincerity of their true repentitive hearts over their sin and disobedience.
But that was all a temporary and ongoing means to pay the penalty,God had to send his perfect lamb that would take the sins of the world away ,once and for all and there would be no need for any other sacrifice

 

[roli]

Roli "I don';t comprend the scale in which God uses to evaluate the state of each man's soul, but I must believe that man's standards of judging and evaluating and deeming someone worthy of condemnation or osostracization fail in comparison to God's love and grace. He must see the full picture with perfect love, but man knows not what that entails."

I would have to agree with you on this. That is why I don't adhere to the belief that only those who believe in Jesus are granted final salvation I guess. I think God does evaluate the state of EACH person's soul and sees good in each one of us. I still cannot see how it could be otherwise. Just me I guess.

That's fair and perfectl;y understandable from your standpoint,but may I remind you that I was once there and stood outside questioning things of this nature,not that I still don't have questions ,but that's ok.
My first notion was if Jesus is the way, then I will search high and low to find out who he is and what it is I need from him.

This belief about Jesus being the way to eternal life, started in Genesis and ends in Revelation, it's in this book that will point the way,but Jesus is'nt as plausible to this present age, nor was he back in his time.
It's a personal quest for truth we must find ourselves on in this life or just settle on what we presently acknowledge and accept it the status quo.

I was'nt quitting until I knew for sure, as I do now.