Why God created people that are destined for Hell...

[ἀλήθεια]

I don't believe I am annoyed that some people are Christians. If I said that anywhere I apologize. I see every religion as trying hard to do what is right and I am sure you are no exception. I do struggle with hearing things that do not include people: you will not go to heaven unless you believe in Jesus for example. I think that is exclusive and divides humanity. But I don't see people who believe that as bad. I really would like to see people drop the notion of punishment at the hands of God, but that is something I do not have control over, nor should I.

Well, if the road is washed out up ahead, should people just smile as people drive past their house?

 

[challupa]

Then we disagree about God. I believe the Bible to be His word.

I guess we do disagree about God. That's okay. I know you are just trying to follow the Bible and you believe it is the word of God, but I always remember that it was filtered through the mind of a man. An ancient man. I don't see the God of the OT in the same way as the god of the NT. Jesus seemed to see that what he was raised with was not an accurate depiction of God for his time and he had the courage to try and change that. We in this day and age have evolved once again and things like sacrificing humans or animals to God are not things we would do anymore. Jesus recognized that too. So maybe it's time to be brave enough to expand our image of who god is once again. Just a thought anyway.

 

[challupa]

Well, if the road is washed out up ahead, should people just smile as people drive past their house?

I am sure the answer to that is no. However, I don't see the road being washed out when it comes to god. I think all paths lead to the same place in the end. Life is an experience, a wonderful gift. I understand why you feel it is your duty to tell people about the "washed out road" if you believe there is only one way to god and the alternative is hell. You are coming from a place of love for your fellow humans and that is commendable. Don't get me wrong, I know why people try to warn people. It is usually out of concern for loved ones and friends. But I just don't think it's needed because I see no hell in anyone's future. That is how we differ as you know.

 

[Riverwolf]

How could Paul be wrong about that if he never said that?

My mistake. He didn't say quite that, but he did say something similar that's just as incorrect:

"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." (Rom. 1:20)

 

[ἀλήθεια]

I guess we do disagree about God. That's okay. I know you are just trying to follow the Bible and you believe it is the word of God, but I always remember that it was filtered through the mind of a man. An ancient man.

Naturally a non-Christian would say that. But the Bible wasn't filtered.

I don't see the God of the OT in the same way as the god of the NT. Jesus seemed to see that what he was raised with was not an accurate depiction of God for his time and he had the courage to try and change that.

Jesus has always been God. Jesus NEVER said that He was raised with an inaccurate depiction of God.

John 8 (NIV)

19Then they asked him, "Where is your father?" "You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also." 20He spoke these words while teaching in the temple area near the place where the offerings were put. Yet no one seized him, because his time had not yet come.

We in this day and age have evolved once again and things like sacrificing humans

God has always forbad human sacrifice. "Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain." Jeremiah 10:2,3.

"When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire(human sacrifice)..." Deuteronomy 18:9, 10.

That doesn't mean that He wasn't willing to die for us.

... or animals to God are not things we would do anymore. Jesus recognized that too.

Jesus knew that animals had to be sacrificed daily for the sins of the people. But now He has sacrificed Himself once and for all; He doesn't need to sacrifice Himself over and over again. Because of His sacrifice (of Himself), animal sacrifice is done away.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

My mistake. He didn't say quite that, but he did say something similar that's just as incorrect:

We don't expect non-Christians to believe what the Bible says.

 

[HoldemDB9]

A Christian has.....Trusted in and believed on and received (key word) the Lord Jesus Christ as savior and king.

Nope, this is not something that they are doing that is better. Someone who has an equal amount of faith in Islam is NO different to someone who has faith in Jesus. For God to reward followers of Jesus, they must have done something better. I cannot not think of anything that they have done that will cause them to be favoured over a Muslim and it doesn't look like you can tell me either. You are again saying that your God punishes and rewards based on sheer luck. You have to tell me what a Christian has done that is worthy of such a great reward. Have they tried harder or more honestly to find truth than non-Christians?

You don't understand the severity of our sin before a Holy God
We all got it wrong, the only difference with Christians is that they trusted Jesus as savior and he came to dwell in them and confirm the truth of His word.
I don't know what God will do to others on judgement day, all I know is what his word says concerning this subject:
Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I'm sorry you have a hard time with this ,but that has been the problem down through the ages..man accepting Jesus by faith as the only means to salvation.
It's not what any other religion teaches or practices but it is what the law and prophets pointed towards and what Jesus himself confirmed in his life,death and burial through the spirit in which he left for the believer.

If you think your way is the way, that's your prerogative ,so don't shoot the messenger.

See my above reply. You have to tell me why a Christian will be favoured by God over a Muslim and you cannot just say that they accepted Christ.

Fine with me, believe in what you want!!!

Are you saying that a religion which teaches that God punishes and reward based on pure luck (not on effort to find truth or how good one has been in life) is not disgusting?

It may be that to you, maybe because you don't fully grasp the concept of the word believe, for it is that that you have eternal life.
I can't explain it,because it's an expereince and a joy and peace and assurrance that supercedes the rational mind. It's liberating when Christ reveals himself to you when you trust him,believe him and receive him.

When I said "nothing better" I meant nothing more reward worthy or right. I meant that being a Christian will not make God like you more than if you were a Muslim. You disagree with me, but you cannot at all explain why God will favour a Christian. You just keep saying that God will favour a Christian because they were right about their beleifs.

Your wrong,it's not that I believe it and therefore it is right, but it's right because he reveals and confirms himself to be the truth.

No you are wrong. You are saying that God will reward you ONLY because your religious beleifs are true, regardless of how hard you tried to find truth.

man can not do anything to be justified before God, there has to be a payment for one's sins and that was made in Christ Jesus. Believe it or not these are his conditions.

roli will you please answer my question. You have to tell me why and how God can favour a Christian over an EQUALLY faithful Muslim. The reason you keep giving me is that Christian is true, therefore it is fair that the Christians can be rewarded. For about the 100th time - whether or not religious beleifs are true is nothing but SHEER LUCK. Why will God favour a Christian over a Muslim???? And please don't come back telling me he will favour them because they were right.

I don't know who your listening to or what your defintion of Christian is, but that's not what Jesus taught or the law and the prophets spoke of.

I'm listening to most Christians on this forum. In fact, from what I've seen the only Christians who believe that only Christian are going to heaven, are the Christians who don't know much about Christianity.

Any way its a much more sensible belief to believe that followers of all religions are going to heaven, since you cannot even tell me why a Christian deserves heaven.

Well there you have it...!

Twisting things just like ἀλήθεια did huh? Go and read my comment again, I did not say anything that is offensive to Jesus or Christianity.

Maybe in the sense that they are both religions and that they are both practiced through a set of protocols,writings and teachings, and there in lies the difference.

I thought that you would answer this by saying that there is a difference but you wouldn't tell me what the difference is. And I was right. If there is something - JUST ANYTHING - that a Christian is doing that a Muslim is not, then you have to explain why almost all people in Saudi Arabia are not doing that "thing".

I personally disagree and I have told you that they are trusting in Jesus for their redemption.

And I've already told you how having faith in Jesus is no more special or better than having faith in Islam. Both are 100% equal. Both require faith to believe. Having faith in Jesus is not better in God sight than having faith in Islam. You have to tell me how someone who chose to have faith in Jesus, deserves a reward. You still have not told me.

At this point, I'll leave that up to you and God to decide.
But our bible tells us many times:
Jhn 14:6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Jhn 3:36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

So you cant answer then?

 

[HoldemDB9]

Sorry, but you and I can never determine who tried harder. It isn't possible. I can't even claim to have tried harder.

Wow its insane what some will do to dodge questions. OBVIOUSLY there are Atheists, Agnostics, Hindus, Muslims, etc, who are trying harder to find truth than some Christians. If you don't agree with this, then surely you will agree that OBVIOUSLY not ALL Christians are trying harder than ALL non-Christians. Also why haven't you answered my questions? Is it because - like roli - you can not come up with JUST ONE REASON as to why a Christians beliefs will be favoured over a Muslims??? Also, if you can come up with JUST ONE THING, then you will have to explain to why it is that the vast majority of people born in Saudi Arabia are not doing that "thing". Coincidence?

Two questions.

1) Do you agree that someone who tried harder to find truth but is not a Christian, is in God eyes, better than a Christian who tried less?

2) Do you agree that such people exist.

I will be very very very surprised if you answer no to any of those questions, but if you answer yes, you have some explaining to do - as to how your God isn't absolutely vile.

 

[HoldemDB9]

Allow me to explain what I think is going on, based on finally reading Paul's letters.

God doesn't "allow" people into heaven. What's going on is that Christ is extending his hand to people, offering them a chance in heaven if only they'd take his hand. "I'll save you from this living hell and the eternal death hereafter, but you have to willingly take my hand. The choice is yours, not mine." (not a Biblical quote; those are my words trying to solidify what's going on)

I understand what you are saying, but it still is not right. God cannot just reward all who chose to "take Jesus hand", just because they happened to be right that Jesus actually existed. There are other religions in the world that are offering the same gift that Christianity is offering. So which do I choose? What if someone tried to come to the right conclusion but accepted Islam? What about if someone tried less to come to the right conclusion, but chose Christianity? It would be insane to think that God would reward the Christian for NO OTHER REASON, other than that their faith just happened to be true.

Also, I've mentioned before that if you were a Christian, I would probably not have a problem with your beliefs. You always seem to try and defend Christianity and you do a great job. But what you believe about Christianity, is a world away from what people like roli or ἀλήθεια believe.

 

[Riverwolf]

We don't expect non-Christians to believe what the Bible says.

Figured.

Then again, I've gotten all sorts of answers concerning Christianity as it is now from finally sitting down and reading Paul's letters.

I would ask, "What exactly are we being saved from?" No Christian has ever given me a satisfactory answer, and the gospels don't say anything about it. Paul, however, stressed what salvation is from in the first place, and the question was finally answered to a point that does make sense.

I still disagree. But actually sitting down and reading his letters has increased my respect for Paul. He clearly believed every word he wrote down, and even sat in a jail cell while he wrote some of them, as happy and content as ever. That alone earns my respect.

The statement I quoted, however, was clearly in ignorance, as God has not made himself obviously known to anyone who isn't a believer in modern times, and there's no reason to think it was any different two thousand years ago.

 

[Riverwolf]

I understand what you are saying, but it still is not right. God cannot just reward all who chose to "take Jesus hand", just because they happened to be right that Jesus actually existed. There are other religions in the world that are offering the same gift that Christianity is offering. So which do I choose? What if someone tried to come to the right conclusion but accepted Islam? What about if someone tried less to come to the right conclusion, but chose Christianity? It would be insane to think that God would reward the Christian for NO OTHER REASON, other than that their faith just happened to be true.

Still on "rewards" and "punishments"... God doesn't "reward" someone for taking Jesus's hand. God judges them on their sins, and Christ speaks on their behalf, and removes their sins, in which case they are able to enter heaven. ("able" is the key word)

BTW from what I've seen, other religions offer different kinds of paths to "bliss hereafter" whatever that means. Buddhism offers freedom from suffering in this life, and in many versions, Nirvana, which is freedom from the cycle of rebirth. Islam offers a reward to anyone who submits to the will of God; here, it is about rewarding and punishing. Judaism, I think, is the same way. Hinduism offers a way to be reborn into greater forms of life. (I think)

Christianity is the only one that offers an easy way into eternal bliss hereafter. And ease of it is one of the reasons why I'm not going to convert.

Also, I've mentioned before that if you were a Christian, I would probably not have a problem with your beliefs. You always seem to try and defend Christianity and you do a great job. But what you believe about Christianity, is a world away from what people like roli or ἀλήθεια believe.

I doubt that.

I just take God's hand out of the Bible, and a wealth of wisdom, philosophy, stories, and information (accurate or otherwise ) makes itself known. roli and... (can't type Greek letters. :sorry1 have the holy spirit read with them (whatever that means ), but what they read is the same as what I read. They just agree with all of it, whereas I agree with certain parts, and disagree with other parts.

So while how I view Christianity is certainly different from how they view it, it's not a world away. I simply disagree. But I do understand. (or try to anyway )

 

[HoldemDB9]

Still on "rewards" and "punishments"... God doesn't "reward" someone for taking Jesus's hand. God judges them on their sins, and Christ speaks on their behalf, and removes their sins, in which case they are able to enter heaven. ("able" is the key word)

Like you said they are only able to enter heaven if they are a Christian. They are only able to have their sins removed if they are Christian. Christians always reply like you have here when I bring stuff like this up. I ask them "why will a Christian be saved and not a Muslim" and they tell me "because Christianity is true".

Being able to enter heaven is a reward. Being able to have your sins forgiven is a reward. If you don't want to call it a reward then you will at least agree that it is a really good thing that God is allowing them to have. For Christians to be rewarded or favoured in any way, they have to have done something good that all non-Christians have not done. Not one Christians has ever told me what it is that a Christian is doing that will cause them to be favoured by God. They are obviously not doing anything at all better. They just have faith that they are right (which is fine) and think that if they happen to be right, they deserve a reward (which is insane).

Generally most Christian will believe that they will be rewarded ONLY because their belief in Christianity is true. I've said it over and over again but Christians just seem to ignore me when I say that whether or not a belief based only on faith is true, is NOTHING but sheer chance. If you get a Muslim who is just as faithful as a Christian, the Christian can not be favoured in any way, JUST because of their beliefs.

There really is no way to cover it up. Some Christians believe that God punishes and rewards based ONLY on whether or not our religious beleifs (which are based on faith) happen to be true, its insane.

 

[Falvlun]

For Christians to be rewarded or favoured in any way, they have to have done something good that all non-Christians have not done. Not one Christians has ever told me what it is that a Christian is doing that will cause them to be favoured by God.

Sorry for jumping in the middle right here, but I think the whole point of Christianity is that you humanly can't do anything to earn your way to heaven.

Eph 2:8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved through faith-- and this is not of yourself, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no man can boast."

Having faith, then, is essentially the only action a person can do to get into heaven (according to Christianity). But, and here's the crux of the matter, many Christians will argue that faith itself can only come from God.

And so we are back at the beginning of the problem, where we have a God who creates only one way to get into heaven, and also has a monopoly on the tools you need to get there.

 

[Comicaze247]

man can not do anything to be justified before God, there has to be a payment for one's sins and that was made in Christ Jesus. Believe it or not these are his conditions.

I was going to read the entire thread before responding, but I had to say something about this.

This statement just makes me think of a mob boss who makes people pay him money just because they live in his "turf". Now that I think about it, that can pretty much explain the Radical Fundamentalist Christian view of "God's" will.

 

[challupa]

Naturally a non-Christian would say that. But the Bible wasn't filtered.

Unless god was holding the pen, a man wrote down his words and therefore it is filtered through the mind of a man. That's what I think about that so we just disagree.


Jesus has always been God. Jesus NEVER said that He was raised with an inaccurate depiction of God.

John 8 (NIV)

19Then they asked him, "Where is your father?" "You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also." 20He spoke these words while teaching in the temple area near the place where the offerings were put. Yet no one seized him, because his time had not yet come.
Are you saying that Jesus is God and not part of the trinity? Why wouldn't he just say he was God instead of going by Jesus then? Also, I believe Jesus gave us a kinder gentler version of God than the one depicted in the OT so I believe Jesus changed some aspects of the God of Judaism. That was why the high priests didn't like him, he was teaching them something totally different that did not coincide with their views of god and therefore rejected Jesus as the Messiah.

God has always forbad human sacrifice. "Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain." Jeremiah 10:2,3.

"When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire(human sacrifice)..." Deuteronomy 18:9, 10.

That doesn't mean that He wasn't willing to die for us.
God started Judaism by ordering Abraham to sacrifice his son. That is human sacrifice. I realize he did not have him follow through, but the fact that Abraham would even be willing strikes me as him being a somewhat psychotic individual to begin with. Also, if you see God and Jesus as different entities, which I'm not sure you do, then Jesus was a human sacrifice was he not?


Jesus knew that animals had to be sacrificed daily for the sins of the people. But now He has sacrificed Himself once and for all; He doesn't need to sacrifice Himself over and over again. Because of His sacrifice (of Himself), animal sacrifice is done away.

I'm not sure where you got that from. I just don't see why it was necessary to sacrifice Jesus for the sins of other people because I obviously don't agree with original sin nor the imperfection of creation to the point they needed to be forgiven in such a drastic manner. This is why we disagree I suppose. You believe things from the Bible in a literal sense and I cannot.

 

[McBell]

Sorry for jumping in the middle right here, but I think the whole point of Christianity is that you humanly can't do anything to earn your way to heaven.

Eph 2:8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved through faith-- and this is not of yourself, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no man can boast."

Having faith, then, is essentially the only action a person can do to get into heaven (according to Christianity). But, and here's the crux of the matter, many Christians will argue that faith itself can only come from God.

And so we are back at the beginning of the problem, where we have a God who creates only one way to get into heaven, and also has a monopoly on the tools you need to get there.

Yet faith without works is dead.
How nice of God to have written an instruction book that is not clear.

 

[McBell]

I'm not sure where you got that from. I just don't see why it was necessary to sacrifice Jesus for the sins of other people because I obviously don't agree with original sin nor the imperfection of creation to the point they needed to be forgiven in such a drastic manner. This is why we disagree I suppose. You believe things from the Bible in a literal sense and I cannot.

Some people believe that the sacrifice of Jesus satisfied Gods blood lust.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Some people believe that the sacrifice of Jesus satisfied Gods blood lust.

For now.

 

[Comicaze247]

Naturally a non-Christian would say that. But the Bible wasn't filtered.

Of course not. God personally took up a quill pen and wrote it himself. Oh wait, that's right. He got a human to do it.

God has always forbad human sacrifice.

. . .

Jesus knew that animals had to be sacrificed daily for the sins of the people. But now He has sacrificed Himself once and for all; He doesn't need to sacrifice Himself over and over again. Because of His sacrifice (of Himself), animal sacrifice is done away.

Interesting how "God" forbade human sacrifice, but allowed the sacrifice of animals to forgive the sins of humans when animals had nothing to do with the sin of humans (unless of course, some human had sex with said animal, but that's beside the point). It kind of reminds me of the word "scapegoat". Everything was blamed on the goat, so once the goat died, everything was fine. Seems like a human thing to do, sacrifice someone else for their own mistakes.

 

[HoldemDB9]

Sorry for jumping in the middle right here, but I think the whole point of Christianity is that you humanly can't do anything to earn your way to heaven.

Eph 2:8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved through faith-- and this is not of yourself, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no man can boast."

Having faith, then, is essentially the only action a person can do to get into heaven (according to Christianity). But, and here's the crux of the matter, many Christians will argue that faith itself can only come from God.

And so we are back at the beginning of the problem, where we have a God who creates only one way to get into heaven, and also has a monopoly on the tools you need to get there.

You said that Christians can not themselves do anything to get into heaven, but then you said that if they have faith they will get to heaven. Christians believe that if you choose to have faith in Christianity, you will be reward by God because Christianity is true. But if you choose to have an equally honest amount of faith in Islam, you will be punished because Islam is not true.

Whether or not our religious beliefs are true is NOTHING but sheer luck since they are based on faith. Anyone who says that God will in any way favour followers of their religion over followers of other religions is saying that God punishes/rewards based on luck. Unless of course they can just give ONE REASON as to why they will be favoured and "because we were right", is NOT a reason.