Why God created people that are destined for Hell...

[challupa]

Jesus took on himself, the penalty and power of sin that was due man and that which man could not possibly bare on his own.

God says man will die in their sin,they will perish for disobedience and idolatry.
This may not become crystal clear until we either have a revelation of Christ and our sin before a Holy God or we stand before him on judgment day.

Loving and serving others compassionately are noble praise worthy acts of kindness and love,but can not appease the denads of God's Holy law,the only price God accepts for sin and to redeem man and which is more sacred is blood .
That is why all through the bible God required blood sacrifice of man's perfect possessions,their cattle, which was esteemed with high value and determined the wealth of a man's household, but it showed the sincerity of their true repentitive hearts over their sin and disobedience.
But that was all a temporary and ongoing means to pay the penalty,God had to send his perfect lamb that would take the sins of the world away ,once and for all and there would be no need for any other sacrifice

I guess I am just doomed to not understanding. As you likely have figured out from my posts, I have a hard time believing in a judgmental god. It seems so contradictory to me. I guess it's a good thing we all have something that suits our needs. I am glad you take comfort in what you believe Roli and I see that it is good for you.

 

[challupa]

That's fair and perfectl;y understandable from your standpoint,but may I remind you that I was once there and stood outside questioning things of this nature,not that I still don't have questions ,but that's ok.
My first notion was if Jesus is the way, then I will search high and low to find out who he is and what it is I need from him.

This belief about Jesus being the way to eternal life, started in Genesis and ends in Revelation, it's in this book that will point the way,but Jesus is'nt as plausible to this present age, nor was he back in his time.
It's a personal quest for truth we must find ourselves on in this life or just settle on what we presently acknowledge and accept it the status quo.

I was'nt quitting until I knew for sure, as I do now.

I am glad you have found something that you are sure of, yes, I really mean that. I believe something different and that keeps evolving all the time. I don't anticipate ever understanding fully the mystery of life and why we are here. I'm okay with that though.

 

[HoldemDB9]

And why do you care about what roli or other like-minded Christians believe?

Roli believes what roli believes, you believe what you believe, and since both of you are just repeating yourselves over and over again, what's the point of going on?

Especially since Paul's letters are the best source of answers. Paul answered these questions better than any Christian. (why do you think they keep quoting the Bible?) But you've got to read with an open mind, forgetting that the dogma of modern Chrisitanity ever existed. Believe me, forgetting the dogma is not as difficult as it sounds. (It might help to read through eastern books first, like Dhammapada or Tao Te Ching)

I'm only repeating myself because he will not answer my questions. As to why he keeps repeating himself.... well, I don't know. I expect its because he has no answers.

If that's the case, for argument's sake only,then the word of God and everything in it is a hoax, making God himself to be a liar and a false God and therefore I presume I will burn.
But thanks be to the witness of the Holy Spirit, you see that's the distinguishing factor among every other religion..the work and power of the Holy Ghost.
Like I said it's a deeper assurance and confidence we have then mere intellectual ascent.

This is the only part of your post that I am going to reply to since the rest of it, once again, had nothing to do with the questions I asked.

I don't understand you here. Are you saying that if Islam is true, then God is a liar? Why wont you just answer my question? What do you think of the God I described? This is EXACTLY how you are saying your God is. Please answer my question, what do you think of the God I described?

You answered by telling me what I already told you in the question. I know that if Islam happens to be true then you will burn - this was not the question. The question was, what do you think of God if he is going to burn you ONLY because your beleifs in Christianity were false??? Please be honest, what would you think of such God??

 

[Riverwolf]

I'm only repeating myself because he will not answer my questions. As to why he keeps repeating himself.... well, I don't know. I expect its because he has no answers.

Why ask the same question only to knowingly receive the same answer?

Besides, roli IS answering. It's just that the answers are not satisfying you.

Which is why I urge you to read Paul's letters with an open mind!

 

[Riverwolf]

The question was, what do you think of God if he is going to burn you ONLY because your beleifs in Christianity were false??? Please be honest, what would you think of such God??

...making God himself to be a liar and a false God and therefore I presume I will burn.

That's roli's answer.

 

[roli]

I guess I am just doomed to not understanding. As you likely have figured out from my posts, I have a hard time believing in a judgmental god. It seems so contradictory to me. I guess it's a good thing we all have something that suits our needs. I am glad you take comfort in what you believe Roli and I see that it is good for you.

If you could only meet the people that I have met along this Christian journey and how hearing some of their seemingly hopeless stories, turning out to be miraculous testimonies of hope ,purpose and contentment.
Part of us do not really want to accept this side of God and on the same token ,we can't truly understand the love and mercy he has for us sinners.
That is the one thing that I really can't quite put my head around.
How pure he is, how holy he is, how patient and kind he is and what kind of love could this God have that makes him accept the vilest of sinners and skeptics,as were so many of the men of the bible that God had choosen.

I would'nt dare say that anyone is doomed,that is do final and absolute sounding, but take heart,if you have breath in your lungs there is a hope and there is an answer that remains.Life is about finding those answers to life's most troubling questions.
I appreciate your comments and I whole heartedly agree

 

[HoldemDB9]

Life is about finding those answers to life's most troubling questions.

And having beliefs that are based on faith, is NOT finding answers. What you said here, I completely agree with - but I don't think you really meant what you said.

 

[HoldemDB9]

Why ask the same question only to knowingly receive the same answer?

Besides, roli IS answering. It's just that the answers are not satisfying you.

He is not answering my questions. Go and read over again. Almost everything he responds with has nothing to do with the question I asked. Like I've said, if anyone can point out where he has answered JUST ONCE, please do. The question I want answered is: What has all Christians done that all none Christians have not done, that will cause them to be favoured by God. All roli has responded with EVERY TIME is, "God will favour them because Christianity is true". This is not an answer, its saying god rewards based on plain blind luck.

That's roli's answer.

That was not an answer. I asked him what he would think of the God I described, not what he thinks will happen to him if Islam is true.

 

[challupa]

If you could only meet the people that I have met along this Christian journey and how hearing some of their seemingly hopeless stories, turning out to be miraculous testimonies of hope ,purpose and contentment.
Part of us do not really want to accept this side of God and on the same token ,we can't truly understand the love and mercy he has for us sinners.
That is the one thing that I really can't quite put my head around.
How pure he is, how holy he is, how patient and kind he is and what kind of love could this God have that makes him accept the vilest of sinners and skeptics,as were so many of the men of the bible that God had choosen.

I would'nt dare say that anyone is doomed,that is do final and absolute sounding, but take heart,if you have breath in your lungs there is a hope and there is an answer that remains.Life is about finding those answers to life's most troubling questions.
I appreciate your comments and I whole heartedly agree

Yes life is hope isn't it. You're welcome

 

[challupa]

And having beliefs that are based on faith, is NOT finding answers. What you said here, I completely agree with - but I don't think you really meant what you said.

Having beliefs based on faith are answers for some Holdem. They may not work for you and me, but they do work for some. I don't think telling Roli he didn't mean what he said is fair though as you cannot know someone else's truth.

 

[HoldemDB9]

Having beliefs based on faith are answers for some Holdem. They may not work for you and me, but they do work for some. I don't think telling Roli he didn't mean what he said is fair though as you cannot know someone else's truth.

Well your right, I don't know someone else's truth, but I cant help but feel that he did not mean what he said. He said life is about finding answers, but he has already said that God will not give a dam about how hard we searched for "truth" - which is the biggest answer anybody could ever hope to find.

 

[challupa]

Well your right, I don't know someone else's truth, but I cant help but feel that he did not mean what he said. He said life is about finding answers, but he has already said that God will not give a dam about how hard we searched for "truth" - which is the biggest answer anybody could ever hope to find.

Yes I see what you mean. However I took it to mean that he was in our place once, searching for the truth. He has found his truth and he has stated what that is. I took it to mean that we are still searching and that was good because it might bring us to "the truth". I know he believes you need to have faith to know God and it's rather circular in our estimation. However, his searching brought him to this truth that is His truth and it could bring us to the same truth. I'm not explaining this well, I know, and I apologize.

 

[Riverwolf]

That was not an answer. I asked him what he would think of the God I described, not what he thinks will happen to him if Islam is true.

Did you read the part about roli calling that God a liar and a false God?

Sounds like an answer to me.

 

[Riverwolf]

...If this was faith alone and not a witness the Holy Spirit places in the deep resesses of a believer's spirit, then yes,it would be mere chance and I would therefore be a skeptic and reluctant to grasp the assurance of being accepted.

..but as it stands, I am not, based on this mere experience alone,
Rom 8:16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
1Jo 4:13Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
1Jo 3:24And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

There you go, Holdem. To a Christian, it's not chance at all, because the Holy Spirit has spoken with Christians in their hearts; they "know".

I know to us that sounds silly, but to them it's not silly at all. "Faith" therefore might not be the best word choice, because it's not faith to them at all; it's assurance.

To us observers, it's chance. To a Christian, it's assurance. To a Muslim, it's assurance.

It's all about perspective.

 

[roli]

And having beliefs that are based on faith, is NOT finding answers. What you said here, I completely agree with - but I don't think you really meant what you said.

I really don't think you know what I mean when I say the word"faith"and that is ok.
It's interesting that the faith you have conflict with in this regard is the faith which you function day in and day out, but I presume that could start a whole new thread.
Just think about that for awhile before you respond, your every action,choice,decision is associated to faith.
It's interesting that God uses that which we utilize everywaking hour,"Faith"

Webster 2 a (1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1): firm belief in something for which there is no proof(2): complete trust
1. Belief; the assent of the mind to the truth of what is declared by another, resting on his authority and veracity, without other evidence; the judgment that what another states or testifies is the truth. I have strong faith or no faith in the testimony of a witness, or in what a historian narrates.
I hope someone can bring what it is your really looking for,because the answers many times are right under our noses, it's that our minds ,for one reason or another hinder us from seeing it.

 

[roli]

Did you read the part about roli calling that God a liar and a false God?

Sounds like an answer to me.

Wow !!!!, that taken out of context sounds nasty, did you do that on purpose.

I did'n say "call that god a liar" implying the muslim god

Here it is in it's context:
Quote:Holdem
Look at it from this perspective, I'm sure you will agree with me here. Imagine that when you die, you find out that Islam is in fact the true religion. God tells you that you are going to be punished simply because you refused the offer of Islam. He is going to reward millions of people who tried LESS than you to find truth ONLY because they accepted the offer of Islam. Do you feel like this God was being fair? This is EXACTLY how you are saying you God is
My response was:::

Roli
If that's the case, for argument's sake only,then the word of God and everything in it is a hoax, making God himself to be a liar and a false God and therefore I presume I will burn.
But thanks be to the witness of the Holy Spirit, you see that's the distinguishing factor among every other religion..the work and power of the Holy Ghost.
Like I said it's a deeper assurance and confidence we have then mere intellectual ascent.

I was talking about the God in which I have placed my eternal soul and earthly life in, turns and tells me I am doomed because I did'nt believe in Islam,which his word expressedly spoke against many of the doctrines they adhere to.

 

[HoldemDB9]

There you go, Holdem. To a Christian, it's not chance at all, because the Holy Spirit has spoken with Christians in their hearts; they "know".

I know to us that sounds silly, but to them it's not silly at all. "Faith" therefore might not be the best word choice, because it's not faith to them at all; it's assurance.

To us observers, it's chance. To a Christian, it's assurance. To a Muslim, it's assurance.

It's all about perspective.

Its not just chance to us observers, its chance to everyone. Whether or not a belief that is based on faith is true, is pure chance. If you disagree with this then please explain. Also, even if what you said is true, the point still remains. How on earth can a person who believes they are assured that Christianity is true be favoured over someone who is assured that Islam is true?

What about someone who tried harder to find truth but was assured that Christianity is false? What if someone didn't try so hard but was assured that Christianity is true? Which would God favour? My point still remains, if you want just swap the word "faith" with "assurance".

Did you read the part about roli calling that God a liar and a false God?

Sounds like an answer to me.

It was not an answer. How can he call that God a false God if the question was "If Islam WAS true..."? I just want to know what roli thinks of the God that I described. I know its going to be hard to get a straight answer, because any answer that he gives, he is saying that his God is like this.

He also has not answered the question that I want answered most. Christians need to answer this question otherwise they have absolutely no reason to believe that they are going to be saved and they have no idea who God will favour. The question is: What are all Christians doing that will cause God to favour them over all non-Christians? Without an answer to this question, you cannot expect to be rewarded in any way. But of course, no answer...

I really don't think you know what I mean when I say the word"faith"and that is ok.
It's interesting that the faith you have conflict with in this regard is the faith which you function day in and day out, but I presume that could start a whole new thread.
Just think about that for awhile before you respond, your every action,choice,decision is associated to faith.
It's interesting that God uses that which we utilize everywaking hour,"Faith"

Webster 2 a (1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1): firm belief in something for which there is no proof(2): complete trust
1. Belief; the assent of the mind to the truth of what is declared by another, resting on his authority and veracity, without other evidence; the judgment that what another states or testifies is the truth. I have strong faith or no faith in the testimony of a witness, or in what a historian narrates.
I hope someone can bring what it is your really looking for,because the answers many times are right under our noses, it's that our minds ,for one reason or another hinder us from seeing it.

I know what faith means roli. My point is that whether or not a belief that is based on faith is true, is pure luck, nothing else - since it was based on faith. You are saying that God punishes and rewards based on our religious beleifs. Therefore you are saying that God punishes and rewards based on pure luck. You are saying that God will reward a Christian for having faith in Jesus, REGARDLESS of how they came to have faith. Like I said please answer these two questions that I asked ἀλήθεια, then I think you might understand how it would not be fair for God to reward ONLY Christians.

1) Do you agree that someone who tried harder to find truth but is not a Christian, is in God eyes, better than a Christian who tried less?

2) Do you agree that such people exist?

Please answer.

All you have to do is give me ONE SINGLE LITTLE THING that a Christian has done/is doing that will cause God to favour them over a Muslim or a Hindu, but you cant. You cannot give me just ONE thing. Yet you will continue to believe that God will favour all Christians over all non-Christians and you yourself do not even know why.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

I realize that it would be ongoing work. I just don't see the point of taking on someone else's sins because how would that person ever learn?

We learn through the process called sanctification, not merely because Jesus paid for our sins.

It seems to me that no matter how much good you do in this life, unless you believe in Jesus and give your life to him, nothing you do matters and you will still go to hell.

That is because works don't pay for our sins and no one is sinless regardless of doing an amount of good works. If man could save himself, Christ did not need to die.

I would think that to be loving, compassionate and serving of others...

That is the second commandment.

would be more important to God than believing in Jesus.

So you believe that the second commandment is all that is required?

Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,

Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. (Matthew 22:35-37)

 

[Riverwolf]

Wow !!!!, that taken out of context sounds nasty, did you do that on purpose.

I did'n say "call that god a liar" implying the muslim god

Here it is in it's context:
Quote:Holdem
Look at it from this perspective, I'm sure you will agree with me here. Imagine that when you die, you find out that Islam is in fact the true religion. God tells you that you are going to be punished simply because you refused the offer of Islam. He is going to reward millions of people who tried LESS than you to find truth ONLY because they accepted the offer of Islam. Do you feel like this God was being fair? This is EXACTLY how you are saying you God is
My response was:::



I was talking about the God in which I have placed my eternal soul and earthly life in, turns and tells me I am doomed because I did'nt believe in Islam,which his word expressedly spoke against many of the doctrines they adhere to.

Same God. ^_^ (Muslims believe, anyway)

Sorry if I misquoted you. Not what I meant. :sorry1:

 

[Riverwolf]

Its not just chance to us observers, its chance to everyone. Whether or not a belief that is based on faith is true, is pure chance. If you disagree with this then please explain. Also, even if what you said is true, the point still remains. How on earth can a person who believes they are assured that Christianity is true be favoured over someone who is assured that Islam is true?

What about someone who tried harder to find truth but was assured that Christianity is false? What if someone didn't try so hard but was assured that Christianity is true? Which would God favour? My point still remains, if you want just swap the word "faith" with "assurance".

It doesn't matter how "hard" you try. In fact, most of the time, the best results comes from not "trying" at all, but "doing". (which, don't get me wrong, takes practice)

"Come on, stop trying to hit me and hit me!"
-Morpheus

As an aspiring warrior-novice, I understand that if you "try" something in combat, you'll lose. You have to just "do" it.

"Try not. Do, or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

And from a warrior's viewpoint, life is one big battle. All the rules of combat apply in all other aspects of life, including the rule about "trying".

It was not an answer. How can he call that God a false God if the question was "If Islam WAS true..."? I just want to know what roli thinks of the God that I described. I know its going to be hard to get a straight answer, because any answer that he gives, he is saying that his God is like this.

He also has not answered the question that I want answered most. Christians need to answer this question otherwise they have absolutely no reason to believe that they are going to be saved and they have no idea who God will favour. The question is: What are all Christians doing that will cause God to favour them over all non-Christians? Without an answer to this question, you cannot expect to be rewarded in any way. But of course, no answer...

What are they doing that makes God happy? They are accepting His offer that no other religion has offered(or so they think): salvation from the coming wrath of God.

Try looking at it from the perspective of a devout Christian who doesn't know about other religions.
I think you'll understand where their coming from if you do.

EDIT: BTW, the offer isn't just made in the Bible; Christ himself has spoken to them and told them that their faith is true.