Why God created people that are destined for Hell...

[Riverwolf]

Respones, yes. Words, yes. Answers, no. I said earlier that if anyone can see where he has actually answered then please point it out. All I want to know is:

What he thinks about the God that I described.

Okay. I'll leave him to that.

What all Christians have done/are doing than will cause God to favour them over all others. And like I said, "because they were right" or "they've accepted Jesus" is not an answer.

Why not? Of course it's an answer. Whether or not it's a GOOD answer is another thing entirely.

If God would favour a non-Christian who tried harder to find truth over a Christian who tried less. And if such people exist.

That's for God to decide, not for us.

Does he agree that whether or not a belief that is based on faith is true, is pure luck. And does he agree that this is how God will reward/punish us based on these beliefs.

No, he doesn't agree, as was demonstrated frequently.

Since we all have an equal chance to choose Christianity and we all can be held accountable for not following once we have simply heard of the Bible, why is it that almost everyone born in Saudi Arabia has "chose" Islam and almost everyone born in the USA has "chose" Christianity.

Maybe they're both right. I don't know.

I completely understand if you don't go through this lengthy thread and find the answers to these questions, that is not your job. But Ive read every word in this thread and roli has not answered any of these questions.

Maybe you have to look at them more closely, with a completely opened and unobstructed mind.

 

[Riverwolf]

I understand what they are saying, but it does not make sense. And I don't see any reason to think that they don't understand me. Ive tried my best to just give out solid facts, I have no beliefs to defend. If I hear an argument that makes more sense, then I will obviously side with that argument. roli has already himself said once in this thread that a certain belief that other Christians have, makes more sense than the beliefs he has, yet he still sticks with the one that makes less sense.

If something someone is saying doesn't make sense, then you're not understanding them.

They've tried their best to explain why they believe, just as you've tried your hardest to put out solid facts, just like I'm trying my best to help you understand them better. (and most of what I'm saying, by the way, applies to you, too, roli )

If someone chooses to stay with a viewpoint that makes less sense than another, that's their choice. I don't waste energy trying to find the logic in that, because it's a waste of time.

Ive tried but I cant...

THAT'S the problem! You try, then give up. You gotta keep popping in those quarters or you'll never get better at the game. (yes, I'm a gamer who mourns the loss of the golden days of the arcade :sad4

Believe me, it's tough artificially forgetting what you know so that you can better understand someone else's viewpoint. Breathing meditation can help clear the mind of junk. It does take practice; I don't expect you to be able to do that overnight; especially since I still have trouble with it. lol

But something that can be done overnight is not something worth doing.

And like I said, if a task involves the mind and you feel as if you're trying your hardest, maybe you're trying too hard.

Less is more, my friend.

I cannot beleive that God will favour Christians over non-Christians unless I have just some reason to believe that he will.

How can I believe something if I have absolutely no reason to? roli this question also applies to you, since you believe God will favour Christians over non-Christians without a reason to beleive this.

Who says you have to believe it, or even agree? You don't have to believe something or agree with something to understand it.

Believe me, I understand where you're coming from; I once held similar views on the world, so your arguments do make sense.

 

[HoldemDB9]

Why not? Of course it's an answer. Whether or not it's a GOOD answer is another thing entirely.

No its not an answer at all. Surely you agree with this. You cannot just say that God will favour Christians over non-Christian BECAUSE they accepted Jesus or because they were right. You have to tell why (in Gods sight) choosing Islam is worse than choosing Christianity. There HAS to be something in the process of being right that ALL Christians have done, otherwise it was just a complete guess. Honestly, Ive had plenty of answers that are not good, thats fine. But this is not even an answer.

Its just like saying in my ball example that God will favour all who picked the red ball, "because they picked the red ball" or "because they got it right". What I'm asking is, what have they done better/more reward worthy. I have not got an answer to this. roli is telling me how Christianity works, not how its fair. Its all easy to say "Christians go to heaven and all others go to hell" but you have to tell me WHY. Like I said, what roli said is not even an answer, its just a bunch of words.

No Christian has ever gave me an answer, its INCREDIBLY OBVIOUS that there is not one. Please RiverWolf, if you can like you say, put yourself in the mind of a Christian and you try to answer this question. There is no answer. But without an answer you cannot beleive that God will in any way favour Christians over non-Christians, because you have got NO REASON to. Although Im virtually 100% sure that there is no answer and that an answer can not even be given (unless its completely dishonest), I would love to see it answered. Because then you would have to tell me why everyone born in Saudi Arabia is not doing what everyone born in the USA doing.

That's for God to decide, not for us.

I know Rick said this, but when did roli say it?

No, he doesn't agree, as was demonstrated frequently.

Wow, when did he demonstrate this? I honestly thought he was just dodging this one since most other Christians do. There cant be a disagreement here, its a fact. If you have a belief that is based on nothing but faith, whether or not it is true, is nothing but luck. I don't think even roli would disagree.

Maybe they're both right. I don't know.

Remember Im asking you what roli has said, not what you believe. I would be SHOCKED if roli could even come up with an answer to this.

Maybe you have to look at them more closely, with a completely opened and unobstructed mind.

I really do not think so, I honeslty believe that I am quite open minded. I have plenty of disagreements with people, but like I said, that is when people can actually explain how or why they disagree. roli has not answered any of my questions, yet he still says he disagrees. He still says that God will favor Christians without ANY reason to beleive this. I'm not asking for an answer that satisfies me or that is "good enough". I'm just asking for an answer. Its a whole new level of ignorance to believe something without ANY ONE SINGLE REASON to beleive it.

 

[HoldemDB9]

If something someone is saying doesn't make sense, then you're not understanding them.

They've tried their best to explain why they believe, just as you've tried your hardest to put out solid facts, just like I'm trying my best to help you understand them better. (and most of what I'm saying, by the way, applies to you, too, roli )

If someone chooses to stay with a viewpoint that makes less sense than another, that's their choice. I don't waste energy trying to find the logic in that, because it's a waste of time.

I disagree, its not that I don't just understand them, its that it actually does not make sense. It does not make sense because its contradicting. And until they can just give a reason as to why its not contradicting, then it continues to make no sense. Like I said I'm not looking for an answer that satisfies me, Im just looking for an answer, without one the contradiction IS STILL there. And roli has not give an answer, so the contradiction is STILL THERE. Again, its not about him disagreeing with me, its about how it is even possible to disagree.

THAT'S the problem! You try, then give up. You gotta keep popping in those quarters or you'll never get better at the game. (yes, I'm a gamer who mourns the loss of the golden days of the arcade :sad4

Believe me, it's tough artificially forgetting what you know so that you can better understand someone else's viewpoint. Breathing meditation can help clear the mind of junk. It does take practice; I don't expect you to be able to do that overnight; especially since I still have trouble with it. lol

But something that can be done overnight is not something worth doing.

And like I said, if a task involves the mind and you feel as if you're trying your hardest, maybe you're trying too hard.

Less is more, my friend.

Interesting, but its going a bit off topic now.

Who says you have to believe it, or even agree? You don't have to believe something or agree with something to understand it.

Believe me, I understand where you're coming from; I once held similar views on the world, so your arguments do make sense.

I am trying to understand. But it is impossible to understand a contradiction that IS there. Its not just the way I see it or anything like that, until roli can give me an answer, what he believes, by definition IS a contradiction.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

Since we all have an equal chance to choose Christianity and we all can be held accountable for not following once we have simply heard of the Bible, why is it that almost everyone born in Saudi Arabia has "chose" Islam and almost everyone born in the USA has "chose" Christianity.

Have that many people in the United States really chosen Christianity? You wouldn't reach that conclusion by looking at my family. In fact, it is very much the other way around. And I am talking about relatives who descend from those who settled in colonial Massachusetts and other New England states.

What happens when a Muslim converts to Christianity while living in a predominantly Muslim country?

“O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).” (Sura 9, verse 123).

“Surely We have prepared for the unbelievers chains and shackles and a burning fire.” (Sura 76, verse 4).

 

[HoldemDB9]

Have that many people in the United States really chosen Christianity?

yes.

You wouldn't reach that conclusion by looking at my family. In fact, it is very much the other way around. And I am talking about relatives who descend from those who settled in colonial Massachusetts and other New England states.

That just your family. The HUGE majority of religious people born in the USA are Christian, but the HUGE majority of people born in Saudi Arabia are Muslim. I could go on an on giving more examples of how certain places are populated by certain religions. If you think that we all get an equal chance to follow Christianity and that we can be punished for not following simply because "we've heard of the Bible", then please explain why certain places (like WHOLE COUNTRY'S) are populated by certain religions. Coincidence?

What happens when a Muslim converts to Christianity while living in a predominantly Muslim country?

“O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).” (Sura 9, verse 123).

“Surely We have prepared for the unbelievers chains and shackles and a burning fire.” (Sura 76, verse 4).

I agree, its vile. But so is a Christian who thinks that all non-Christians go to hell even though people born in certain places don't have a good enough chance and who also believe they will be favoured over Muslims ONLY because they had a belief in something which just happened to actually be true - in other words they got lucky, therefore they deserve a reward. Unless of course (like I've asked roli) you can just give me ONE THING that ALL Christians are doing/have done that will cause God to favour them over ALL non-Christians.

You wont find an answer because there is not one. But you need one otherwise you have NO REASON to believe that God will in any way favour Christians over non-Christians. Good luck.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

yes.

That just your family. The HUGE majority of religious people born in the USA are Christian,

But how many people born in the USA are religious?

but the HUGE majority of people born in Saudi Arabia are Muslim.

I explained that.

If you think that we all get an equal chance to follow Christianity and that we can be punished for not following simply because "we've heard of the Bible", then please explain why certain places (like WHOLE COUNTRY'S) are populated by certain religions. Coincidence?

No, some people forced others to believe Islam or Christianity. Today, not even the Roman Catholic church forces anyone to believe Catholicism.

I agree, its vile. But so is a Christian who thinks that all non-Christians go to hell

So you think it is vile for someone to hold a belief that is different from your own? Christianity teaches it's adherents to do good to others regardless of their beliefs.

even though people born in certain places don't have a good enough chance and who also believe they will be favoured over Muslims ONLY because they had a belief in something which just happened to actually be true - in other words they got lucky, therefore they deserve a reward.

You've made up your mind that Christianity teaches something that it does not teach. People don't deserve a reward.

Unless of course (like I've asked roli) you can just give me ONE THING that ALL Christians are doing/have done that will cause God to favour them over ALL non-Christians.

God doesn't save based on one's good deeds. That obviously upsets you.

 

[HoldemDB9]

But how many people born in the USA are religious?

I not exactly sure. Something like 70-80%?

I explained that.

Ok fine, so you think that people born in Saudi Arabia are forced to be Muslim. Well what will your God do to these non-Christians?

No, some people forced others to believe Islam or Christianity. Today, not even the Roman Catholic church forces anyone to believe Catholicism.

Ok so you believe that you've got an answer for the Muslims in Saudi Arabia, great. Although I would like to hear what God will do with these people who did not get a fair chance to accept Christ.

Anyway, my Muslim example was just one example. There are hundreds more. What about the fact that 80% of India are Hindus? Coincidence?

So you think it is vile for someone to hold a belief that is different from your own? Christianity teaches it's adherents to do good to others regardless of their beliefs.

No I don't. I think its vile to teach that God favours some over others when you yourself have absolutely NO REASON to believe this. And I know Christianity also teaches some very, very good things.

You've made up your mind that Christianity teaches something that it does not teach. People don't deserve a reward.

This is ridiculous. OK ILL SAY IT, THEY DON'T DESERVE A REWARD. But they are gong to get one and some people are not so my whole point COMPLETELY REMAINS. You believe that Christians will be favoured by God because they got lucky and their belief in Christ happened to be true, regardless of how they came to have this belief. Please answer my question.

God doesn't save based on one's good deeds. That obviously upsets you.

No it does not. It upsets me that some believe that God will punish and reward based on NOTHING but sheer luck. You need to give me a reason as to why God will favour Christians over non-Christians or you have no reason to believe that this is the case. ἀλήθεια if you cannot give me an answer, then you cannot say that God will favour Christians over non-Christians.

 

[Riverwolf]

No its not an answer at all. Surely you agree with this. You cannot just say that God will favour Christians over non-Christian BECAUSE they accepted Jesus or because they were right. You have to tell why (in Gods sight) choosing Islam is worse than choosing Christianity. There HAS to be something in the process of being right that ALL Christians have done, otherwise it was just a complete guess. Honestly, Ive had plenty of answers that are not good, thats fine. But this is not even an answer.

Its just like saying in my ball example that God will favour all who picked the red ball, "because they picked the red ball" or "because they got it right". What I'm asking is, what have they done better/more reward worthy. I have not got an answer to this. roli is telling me how Christianity works, not how its fair. Its all easy to say "Christians go to heaven and all others go to hell" but you have to tell me WHY. Like I said, what roli said is not even an answer, its just a bunch of words.

No Christian has ever gave me an answer, its INCREDIBLY OBVIOUS that there is not one. Please RiverWolf, if you can like you say, put yourself in the mind of a Christian and you try to answer this question. There is no answer. But without an answer you cannot beleive that God will in any way favour Christians over non-Christians, because you have got NO REASON to. Although Im virtually 100% sure that there is no answer and that an answer can not even be given (unless its completely dishonest), I would love to see it answered. Because then you would have to tell me why everyone born in Saudi Arabia is not doing what everyone born in the USA doing.

Because Muslims in Saudi Arabia are following the will of a false and lying God. (that's how ignorant people believe; and trust me, many, many do) The God of Islam does not glorify Christ, in fact he lowers Christ down to being a man. Many even go so far to say that the God of Islam is Satan himself. (such as Bush; he once said that the Qur'an is a Satanic book)

It's all about Christ in the Christian religion. No Christ, no God, no heaven.

MoonWater also reminds me that in the Christian religion, it's important to be like Christ. To Christians, no other religion is like this. (that is inaccurate, of course) To become a Christian and accepting Christ is to become like Him.

I know Rick said this, but when did roli say it?

He didn't. Rick said it, and I said it.

Wow, when did he demonstrate this? I honestly thought he was just dodging this one since most other Christians do. There cant be a disagreement here, its a fact. If you have a belief that is based on nothing but faith, whether or not it is true, is nothing but luck. I don't think even roli would disagree.

Like I said, roli was told personally by the holy spirit that his "faith" is correct.

When luck is involved, 100% assurance is not available. roli is 100% sure he's gotten it right.

It is luck from our perspective, not from roli's.

Just because everyone agrees doesn't make it "right". After all, everyone agreed that the earth was the center of the universe, right?

I really do not think so, I honeslty believe that I am quite open minded. I have plenty of disagreements with people, but like I said, that is when people can actually explain how or why they disagree. roli has not answered any of my questions, yet he still says he disagrees. He still says that God will favor Christians without ANY reason to beleive this. I'm not asking for an answer that satisfies me or that is "good enough". I'm just asking for an answer. Its a whole new level of ignorance to believe something without ANY ONE SINGLE REASON to beleive it.

I'm sure you do, but often if the answer is elusive, it might mean that you're trying too hard, or looking in the wrong place.

And like I said, the reason is that the holy spirit has confirmed their faith. That's not scientifically verifiable, nor is it something that everyone can feel at the push of a button.

From the perspective of a Christian, God has not extended his hand through other religions. Only through the Christian religion.

That's the answer, however inaccurate it may be.

 

[Riverwolf]

I disagree, its not that I don't just understand them, its that it actually does not make sense. It does not make sense because its contradicting. And until they can just give a reason as to why its not contradicting, then it continues to make no sense. Like I said I'm not looking for an answer that satisfies me, Im just looking for an answer, without one the contradiction IS STILL there. And roli has not give an answer, so the contradiction is STILL THERE. Again, its not about him disagreeing with me, its about how it is even possible to disagree.

Now, you point out that something is contradictory. This is true. Based on the knowledge that we have of other religions, it is very contradictory.

To someone who doesn't know about the teachings of other religions, or someone who may have seen it, but looks at it with an obstructed mind, it's not contradictory.

Interesting, but its going a bit off topic now.

You're right. I apologize.

I am trying to understand. But it is impossible to understand a contradiction that IS there. Its not just the way I see it or anything like that, until roli can give me an answer, what he believes, by definition IS a contradiction.

Okay, it's a contradiction.

So, instead of trying to understand the contradiction, which I agree can be very frustrating (), try to understand why the contradiction is there.

Try to understand where this contradictory belief came from.

 

[HoldemDB9]

Because Muslims in Saudi Arabia are following the will of a false and lying God. (that's how ignorant people believe; and trust me, many, many do) The God of Islam does not glorify Christ, in fact he lowers Christ down to being a man. Many even go so far to say that the God of Islam is Satan himself. (such as Bush; he once said that the Qur'an is a Satanic book)

It's all about Christ in the Christian religion. No Christ, no God, no heaven.

MoonWater also reminds me that in the Christian religion, it's important to be like Christ. To Christians, no other religion is like this. (that is inaccurate, of course) To become a Christian and accepting Christ is to become like Him.

Nope this still is not an answer. How can you believe that the God of Islam is lying, if you do not believe that he exists. I asked what Christians are doing that will cause God to favour them over Muslims. You are just telling me that they are following a false God. There has to be something better in Gods sight about following the right religion over following the false religion. This is just the same as answering with "they will be favoured, because Christianity is true". Its not an answer. In god sight, what is so much better about following the real Christian God over following the false Islamic God? You cannot just say "because the Christian God is real". I am not asking roli how sure he is that he is right, I am asking him why God will favour him for having those beleifs.

Is it just a coincidence that all people in Saudi Arabia are following a false God, but all in the USA are following the real God?

He didn't. Rick said it, and I said it.

Exactly. Roli is saying that God will favour those who tried LESS, its insane.

Like I said, roli was told personally by the holy spirit that his "faith" is correct.

When luck is involved, 100% assurance is not available. roli is 100% sure he's gotten it right.

It is luck from our perspective, not from roli's.

Just because everyone agrees doesn't make it "right". After all, everyone agreed that the earth was the center of the universe, right?

And all of the other religions also believe that God is telling them that they are right, EXACTLY the same as roli - NO difference. So why will the ones who got it right be favoured? They are no different to other people who thought they were right, its just that they happened to be right. Even if roli is 100% sure, he has to accept that there are other people who are also 100% sure. How on earth can he expect to be rewarded, ONLY because his 100% assurance (which other people have in different Gods) happened to actually be real?

In God sight there is ZERO difference between roli and an equally faithful Hindu. For God to favour roli, he has to have done something better than the equally faithful Hindu. And happening to be right (yes happening, even if he is "100% sure") is not a reason to favour one over the other. Your answering "why will God favour Christians?" by saying "because they have been assured by God that they are right".

I'm sure you do, but often if the answer is elusive, it might mean that you're trying too hard, or looking in the wrong place.

And like I said, the reason is that the holy spirit has confirmed their faith. That's not scientifically verifiable, nor is it something that everyone can feel at the push of a button.

From the perspective of a Christian, God has not extended his hand through other religions. Only through the Christian religion.

That's the answer, however inaccurate it may be.

See my above replies, these are not answers. There are no answers. But to hold the belief that God will favour Christians over non-Christian, you need an answer. Saying "because God told me that I'm right" is not an answer. You cannot expect God to reward you for believing in Jesus if he "100% assured you" that Jesus exists.

 

[HoldemDB9]

Now, you point out that something is contradictory. This is true. Based on the knowledge that we have of other religions, it is very contradictory.

To someone who doesn't know about the teachings of other religions, or someone who may have seen it, but looks at it with an obstructed mind, it's not contradictory.

I don't see how its possible to not see this as contradictory. If roli can not give me a reason (ANY REASON) then his beliefs are contradicting each other. He has not gave me a reason, therefore how can he possibly think that there is no contradiction? Without a reason there is a contradiction, roli knows this. He as not gave me a reason, roli knows this. Its as simple as that.

Okay, it's a contradiction.

So, instead of trying to understand the contradiction, which I agree can be very frustrating (), try to understand why the contradiction is there.

Try to understand where this contradictory belief came from.

I'm not trying to understand the contradiction, its there right in front of me - I automatically understand it as soon as I see its a contradiction. What does frustrate me is how someone can continue to hold a certain beleif once I've proved and they cannot disprove why its a contradiction.

As to where the contradiction comes from, I don't know. I cant say the Bible because like I've said, there are many Christians who follow and believe in that book but who do not believe what roli believes. Id say it comes from the fact that in life, people who find the right way or who did something right are usually rewarded, regardless of how they were right - even if they just took a complete guess. This of course is not fair, life is not fair - but God would be fair.

God would see that a non-Christian who really is trying to come to true beliefs is superior to a Christian who has not really tried, but ended up choosing Christianity.

 

[challupa]

I know, I know! There is only one God. This God tells all the religions that their religion is the only true religion, but he doesn't tell them that he has told every other religion the same things. Maybe God just likes to "stir the pot"? Or maybe he doesn't care who has it right cause in the big picture it just doesn't matter?

Religions have been changing since their beginnings. I think that is the way it should be. As mankind grows and understands more it makes sense that religions need to grow and understand more. In other words they need to constantly be redefining who God is. Expanding the understanding of what God is. Remaining stuck in the teachings of thousands of years ago doesn't work for anything because new understandings change the way we view things and that is what maturing and growth is all about. Life is ever changing. It is a process. As we learn we grow. Keeping the same old understanding of God is keeping us from growing and having a better understanding of who God really is.

It is far easier to follow a book I suppose and many do. However, I don't think ancient books are the answer to modern solutions. I believe we need to re-evaluate what we believe because what we believe dictates how we behave and how we are currently behaving in the world is killing us.

 

[HoldemDB9]

I know, I know! There is only one God. This God tells all the religions that their religion is the only true religion, but he doesn't tell them that he has told every other religion the same things. Maybe God just likes to "stir the pot"? Or maybe he doesn't care who has it right cause in the big picture it just doesn't matter?

Religions have been changing since their beginnings. I think that is the way it should be. As mankind grows and understands more it makes sense that religions need to grow and understand more. In other words they need to constantly be redefining who God is. Expanding the understanding of what God is. Remaining stuck in the teachings of thousands of years ago doesn't work for anything because new understandings change the way we view things and that is what maturing and growth is all about. Life is ever changing. It is a process. As we learn we grow. Keeping the same old understanding of God is keeping us from growing and having a better understanding of who God really is.

It is far easier to follow a book I suppose and many do. However, I don't think ancient books are the answer to modern solutions. I believe we need to re-evaluate what we believe because what we believe dictates how we behave and how we are currently behaving in the world is killing us.

I completely agree, but Christians do not .

 

[challupa]

I completely agree, but Christians do not .

I know, but maybe it just doesn't matter what anyone believes. We are all products of our upbringing, our circumstances and so many different things. No one interprets the world the same. I don't have a problem with the hundreds of different beliefs that are out there. I don't agree with any that harm others though. I believe that is where I draw the line and will try to change things when I see others being abused.

 

[HoldemDB9]

I know, but maybe it just doesn't matter what anyone believes. We are all products of our upbringing, our circumstances and so many different things. No one interprets the world the same. I don't have a problem with the hundreds of different beliefs that are out there.

I agree again. And I should have said "most Christians" because there are plenty of Christians who would agree with what your saying.

I don't agree with any that harm others though. I believe that is where I draw the line and will try to change things when I see others being abused.

But what do you see as harming others? I see teaching intelligent design to kids as harming them. I see labelling kids as Muslim or Christian as harming them. I see telling your children that evolution is false as harming them. I see voting against certain political people because of their beliefs (or lack of) as harming. I see voting against gay marriage because of a 2000 year old books as harming. I see rejecting a proven undeniable theory as harming to society and I find it worrying.

I am not against people who disagree with me. I am against ignorance, arrogance, bigots and people who disagree without any reason to.

 

[challupa]

I agree again. And I should have said "most Christians" because there are plenty of Christians who would agree with what your saying.

Yes I would agree that liberals in all religions will see it that way to varying degrees.

But what do you see as harming others? I see teaching intelligent design to kids as harming them. I see labelling kids as Muslim or Christian as harming them. I see telling your children that evolution is false as harming them. I see voting against certain political people because of their beliefs (or lack of) as harming. I see voting against gay marriage because of a 2000 year old books as harming. I see rejecting a proven undeniable theory as harming to society and I find it worrying.

I am not against people who disagree with me. I am against ignorance, arrogance, bigots and people who disagree without any reason to.

Now there you have hit on a subject that I too struggle with. What constitutes harm? This is the hardest part for me. While I believe that people are entitled to their beliefs, it contradicts in many ways what I see as harmful. I think that you and many others struggle with this. I believe there is a huge spiritual growth spurt happening on this earth and more and more of us are seeing things with a new awareness. What was accepted and rarely questioned 50 or even 30 years ago is now being questioned. We are re-evaluating so much. Now we do see indoctrination as being harmful. The question is though, defining indoctrination. We all indoctrinate our children, there is no getting away from it. How is it not possible to pass beliefs down to your children. They not only learn by your words, but also your actions. So where do we draw the line between honest, unavoidable, passing on of beliefs and those that are very harmful.

When I was raising my children I was careful not to say anything was the "truth" when it came to religion. I wanted them to decide for themselves and explore what was right for them. However, they still were subjected to seeing how I walked through this world and I am sure it colored the way they see the world. My son is an atheist, my daughter is agnostic. They see things differently in some ways and agree in others. This tells me they have felt free to think for themselves and make their own informed decisions about things. I think we need to allow that for our children. We obviously need to model how to walk through this world in a way that does the most good, but even that is subjective. So this is a very difficult thing to deal with because there are people who would think it abusive to not teach their children that their religion is the only way. My sisters would be a good example of that. I cringe when I am around them and their families because they are very indoctrinated. However, I am seeing some of the older ones starting to think for themselves. They are questioning. So there you go. People as they mature can leave indoctrination behind and find their own way. I am an example of this and many others on the forum are too. I had a very rigid Christian upbringing which I started questioning big time around the age of 12. I think we will become what we are meant to become. Also sometimes it is the most rigid of upbringings that pushes people to search more and be more tolerant when they grow up because they saw the harm it does.

Holdem I understand your concerns and I share them. I believe many do share them. But one thing I know for sure, we cannot change them by force nor should we. Of course in extreme cases, we must as a society step in and rescue children from abuse, but other than those circumstances there isn't much we can do. I know my neices and nephews are curious about my beliefs because they are very different from how they were raised. I am careful when I share but I do answer questions when I am asked. I try to be very cognizant of where they are and what they have been raised in though and try to answer in the best way I can without seeming disrespectful to what their families want them to believe. A real hard line to walk, but I don't think there would be much respect for my point of view if I bulldozed my way into their lives negating what they believe with disrespect. Okay, I'm rambling now, so will stop.

 

[Riverwolf]

Nope this still is not an answer. How can you believe that the God of Islam is lying, if you do not believe that he exists. I asked what Christians are doing that will cause God to favour them over Muslims. You are just telling me that they are following a false God. There has to be something better in Gods sight about following the right religion over following the false religion. This is just the same as answering with "they will be favoured, because Christianity is true". Its not an answer. In god sight, what is so much better about following the real Christian God over following the false Islamic God? You cannot just say "because the Christian God is real". I am not asking roli how sure he is that he is right, I am asking him why God will favour him for having those beleifs.

Is it just a coincidence that all people in Saudi Arabia are following a false God, but all in the USA are following the real God?

I don't know. I'm only speaking from the standpoint of a narrow-minded Christian. That's how they see it. I, too, think it's ridiculous. But that's the way it is.

Human beings, by nature, are foolish and stupid. Get used to it.

And all of the other religions also believe that God is telling them that they are right, EXACTLY the same as roli - NO difference. So why will the ones who got it right be favoured? They are no different to other people who thought they were right, its just that they happened to be right. Even if roli is 100% sure, he has to accept that there are other people who are also 100% sure. How on earth can he expect to be rewarded, ONLY because his 100% assurance (which other people have in different Gods) happened to actually be real?

I know there's no difference. A narrow-minded Christian does see a difference, and I was pointing out the difference that they see, however inaccurate or insensible it may be.

In God sight there is ZERO difference between roli and an equally faithful Hindu. For God to favour roli, he has to have done something better than the equally faithful Hindu. And happening to be right (yes happening, even if he is "100% sure") is not a reason to favour one over the other. Your answering "why will God favour Christians?" by saying "because they have been assured by God that they are right".

How would you know how God views something? No mortal can even come close to fathoming the mind of even a lesser god, let alone the Big Kahuna himself.

A narrow-minded Christian would not believe God is telling Muslims the same thing; a troll came here once and literally said that the holy spirit does not come to those who have not accepted Christ. That's what they believe. I, too, think it's stupid. BUT HOWEVER STUPID IT IS, THAT'S WHAT THEY BELIEVE!!

Narrow-minded Christians believe that Hindus, however devout they may be, are idolaters, worshiping man-made objects, which God forbade explicitly in all the books he allegedly sent. So that's why God would favor a Christian over them, that they do not worship the living God and instead worship idols.

See my above replies, these are not answers. There are no answers. But to hold the belief that God will favour Christians over non-Christian, you need an answer. Saying "because God told me that I'm right" is not an answer. You cannot expect God to reward you for believing in Jesus if he "100% assured you" that Jesus exists.

Why not? Makes perfect sense to me. If God told me that Christianity was right, and all other religions were wrong, I'd be inclined at first to believe it, because God is the absolute authority figure. How can there be any more doubt if God says that?

 

[Riverwolf]

I don't see how its possible to not see this as contradictory. If roli can not give me a reason (ANY REASON) then his beliefs are contradicting each other. He has not gave me a reason, therefore how can he possibly think that there is no contradiction? Without a reason there is a contradiction, roli knows this. He as not gave me a reason, roli knows this. Its as simple as that.

No. roli believes he's given you all kinds of reasons, and probably thinks you're just unable to accept them.

Otherwise that would make roli a liar, which there's no reason to think that.

I'm not trying to understand the contradiction, its there right in front of me - I automatically understand it as soon as I see its a contradiction. What does frustrate me is how someone can continue to hold a certain beleif once I've proved and they cannot disprove why its a contradiction.

Because we're all, as humans, a bunch of blind men fondling an elephant.

As to where the contradiction comes from, I don't know. I cant say the Bible because like I've said, there are many Christians who follow and believe in that book but who do not believe what roli believes. Id say it comes from the fact that in life, people who find the right way or who did something right are usually rewarded, regardless of how they were right - even if they just took a complete guess. This of course is not fair, life is not fair - but God would be fair.

Why? Nothing is fair. Why should God be?

God would see that a non-Christian who really is trying to come to true beliefs is superior to a Christian who has not really tried, but ended up choosing Christianity.

A sensible God that we would accept is like that.

The God of narrow-minded Christians imprinted the law and gospel unto the hearts of all mankind, and therefore they, knowing of the true God's existence, choose to follow idols and false gods.

You don't need to tell me how ridiculous this is. But that's how narrow-minded Christians view it.

 

[HoldemDB9]

Ill only reply to these since it looks like we agree on everything else.

Why not? Makes perfect sense to me. If God told me that Christianity was right, and all other religions were wrong, I'd be inclined at first to believe it, because God is the absolute authority figure. How can there be any more doubt if God says that?

Of course if you think that God has told you that Christianity is true, you would have no doubt. But like I said, I did not ask how roli was so sure about his beleifs or how he came to have them. I asked how/why God will favour him for having them. There are Muslims who just as strongly believe that the God of Islam is talking to them. If they both believed just as passionately and strongly then how can God favour one over the other? What is the Christian doing better than the Muslim? (remember they both believe just as passionately and strongly)

Of course, the Christian is doing nothing better. But they seem to think that being right about something deserves something good, REGARDLESS of how they came to be right. If you removed the part in bold, I would have no problem with their beliefs.

If one could give an answer, then they would have to say that the fact that 80% of people born in THE WHOLE of India are not doing [insert answer], is just mere coincidence. If a Christian cannot provide an answer/reason that I've been asking for over and over again, then they cannot go around saying that Christians will be in any way favoured - for they themselves have NO reason to believe this.

No. roli believes he's given you all kinds of reasons, and probably thinks you're just unable to accept them.

Otherwise that would make roli a liar, which there's no reason to think that.

Well to be honest, Id say there is reason to think that roli would lie.

Why? Nothing is fair. Why should God be?

I didn't say God should be fair, but this is how Christians portray him to be.