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Why "God does not exist" is a positive claim

SalixIncendium

अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
Staff member
Premium Member
I've said this in other threads on this forum. "God does not exist" is a negative claim.

That said, the burden of proof lies on the person making the claim. If an atheist tells a non-atheist that God does not exist, the burden of proof is on the atheist, not the non-atheist.

It's really that simple.

ETA: The burden of proof of the above claim is also on the atheist. ;)
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
If you prefer that one, go with that one.

All you have done is further demonstrate the point that the term is well defined.

Why you had to take such a painfully round about "so what" route to get there is anyones guess.

Good.
Now I am going to do something funny. I am going to read the text and stop with I find in effect a norm:

"...
While certain kinds of arguments, such as logical syllogisms, require mathematical or strictly logical proofs, the standard for evidence to meet the burden of proof is usually determined by context and community standards and conventions. ..."

The bold one is the point and it has no evidence as such, since it is in effect a case of norms.
 

McBell

Unbound
Good.
Now I am going to do something funny. I am going to read the text and stop with I find in effect a norm:

"...
While certain kinds of arguments, such as logical syllogisms, require mathematical or strictly logical proofs, the standard for evidence to meet the burden of proof is usually determined by context and community standards and conventions. ..."

The bold one is the point and it has no evidence as such, since it is in effect a case of norms.
*sigh*
So what?
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
*sigh*
So what?

So it is not just about facts, it is also about norms for what is considered a fact. That is the point.

If you use the term fact in a positve sense, then you must show that there are facts. The same with the terms evidence or god. It is not limited to religion. If you claim evidence as a postive term, then you must justifiy that, if we are to play burden of proof. That is all.
 

McBell

Unbound
Well, if you read the OP you will notice it is about philosophy as in effect metaphysics, ontology, logic and epistemology.
Evidence is only a subset of that.
Seems to me the OP is just plain flat out wrong in claiming that "god does not exist" is a positive claim.

It matters not if a claim is negative or positive, the one making the claim has burden of proof.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Its meaning is perfectly clear to anybody with any familiarity with basic logic applied to debate, or with critical thinking in general. Just like (say) 'begging the question' means assuming your conclusion, rather than its more colloquial use, and 'theory' meaning something different in the context of science than in its colloquial sense.

It's not even as obscure as those examples, it's just using 'proof' in a rather broad sense: it's up to those who make claims that they expect others to accept to provide some sort of justification for them.

It's actually quite difficult to think of a level of understanding at which it would become confusing. Those who know nothing of formal logic or critical thinking, may well think of 'proof' in a loose sense anyway, and if you know enough to see that absolute 'proof' is impossible outside of mathematics or pure logic, then one would probably know of the term anyway.

Anyway, good luck with changing the basic terminology of an entire subject because it seems so irritate you so much.....

Proof works best if it is direct or first hand proof. As an example, I have never been to England. I have no direct proof, it actually exists, based on my own fives senses doing my own exploratory experiments. All the proof I have, is based on taking the word of others, extrapolating photos and using some logic and common sense. That type of proof is not the same as actually having a first hand experience, such as landing in England and then driving and walking around the countryside. Only in that way, my five senses can fully satisfy the burden of direct proof England is real and not have to depend on second or third person accounts, that may be exaggerated, or that my imagination may extrapolate, where is should not go.

This predicament of first hand proof reminds me of the fable of the Emperor's New Clothes. In this fable, the Emperor is sold an imaginary set of clothes. At first he is skeptical, but he is told by the tailor, that only someone of refined tastes can appreciate these fine garments. The Emperor wants to appear hip and refined and he starts to see, what he is told is real, to point of denying his own eyes; 2nd hand proof is all he needs.

Others, who see the Emperor parading around naked, but with the dignity due to his fine garments, take the word of the Emperor; based on his positive enthusiasm, and they also start to see what it not there, due to the prestige of saying you can see. But eventually, a small child, using his common sense, trusts his own eyes and point out the fact the emperor is naked. Suddenly everyone realizes this first hand data, that was denied, is more important than all the second accounts of a salesman hoping to make a quick sale, by using a prestige effect.

People debate about man made global warming and climate change, but I have never seen the raw data. How many accept this premise based on a first hand account of seeing and massaging that raw data? Most of us take the word of others who do that for us, which includes the drum beat of fake news and politicians who are not even scientists. If we add the words, consensus of science, and new Emperor's clothes appear. Consensus of opinion is not how science works. Consensus of opinion is how politics works and is used to create imaginary reality only those with refined tastes can appreciate.

Atheist require first hand experience for the phenomena called, God. They will not just take the word of others or second hand accounts. However many other things in science get a pass, with people willing to accept things they have never experienced, like dark matter and dark energy in the Lab. Spiritual people tend to have some first hand data of the divine or even metaphysical, that is satisfying to them; proof of concept of God. This is why spirituality is often personal; personal proof. If I try to share my personal proof, at best it is only second or third hand proof to you, and many feel a need to be skeptical, until they have their own first person proof.

I remember doing a development project, as a young upcoming Engineer, connected to seeing if it was possible to extrapolate an anaerobic bioreactor process, to an open basin application, where I could not fully control any of the parameters, including oxygen, pH, concentrations, heavy metals, chlorinated solvents, etc. At that time, I had no biology background nor any experience with bioreactors. A Consultant was hired to discuss the possibilities. I was told it would be impossible, since such bioreactors were very sensitive to swings in variables, and my large number of uncontrolled variables, would make it stall and not work.

The consensus agreed, but since this was my project, I had to try; spend the six months of funding. To make a long story, short, I was successful doing this in a beaker and then in an open 55 gallon drum using some soil bacteria. Then, through unique emergency circumstances, I was allowed to run million plus gallon test in an open waste nitric acid pond, which needed to be decommissioned; yesterday; EPA emergency. Nobody still believed it would work, but we had to so sometime, and this test was only supposed to buy time. However, that million gallon test became the new state of the art, for a needed treatment facility, all without any biology training. This is where I learned not to take the word of experts, but see for myself. The state of the art is a moving target and not always a stationary dogma based on second hand prestige.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
"They"??? You fight constantly with anyone that dares to contradict your own unquestioned beliefs!
And the irony keeps coming. BTW, this is a debate forum where ideas are challenged daily. No one ever said debate forums are safe spaces for those with religious and political beliefs that aren't defendable against critique. And I am open to being questioned, and have been wrong before. But theists don't get the benefit of the doubt when they make extraordinary claims and assertions of truth.
Post after past after post, you can NEVER be wrong.
Feel free to explain how I'm wrong using evidence and sound reasoning. But look at what you do instead, just whine and complain as if you were vioated somehow. And that childish attitude is supposed to suggest that you are enlightened and have some higher wisdom? Quite the contrary.
And anyone that dates to suggest that you might be wrong must be ommediately 'vanquished' by any argument you can manage to muster. You're a bigger 'believer' than most of the folks, here, including theists.
Do you not slow down to reflect on what you are posting befoe you submit? You sound very Trumpian here.
I don't form beliefs. I think they are almost entirely ego-driven delusions that people use to deny the fact that they could always be wrong about everything.
Yet look at your ego driving your content. So you aren't even aware that you form beliefs, and are reacting badly to the criticisms I have for what you present.
This is complete make-believe on your part in yet another desperate attempt at vanquishing ANY opposition to your own beliefs.
Here's a claim, where's the evidence and the argument? You aren't a god that makes absolute statements of truth. Isn't that what you are accusing me of doing, yet doing it yourself? Notice you don;t challenge my arguments or ask me questions, you just whine, and express irony.
What you perceive as hostility is just my posing the logical criticism of you sacred belief in your own righteousness.
Where is the logical criticism? I just see you complaining.
Try an interesting experiment sometime. Try posing a full, logical, and honest critique of your own beliefs. I bet you can't do it. Because you have NEVER once even considered that you coud be wrong.
First, I do subject my own belief and thoughts to critique. Notice you don't take the time to challenge my postions yourself. Why is that? If I'm so wrong then why do you avoid challenging me? You only assert I'm wrong, but offer no evidence or argument. Any 5 year old can complain.

No, it's a fool that thinks they have to engage in your 'kangaroo court' nonsense.
Like you are doing? I'm asking questions and presenting argumenst of why your beliefs and claims are false. It's you throwing tantrums with personal attcks, and making the debate a mess.
Of course you do. Demanding proof from others that you logically cannot be given is how you justify thinking your position is superior. When in fact it's quite idiotic. And everyone sees this but you.
Sorry, if a believer makes a claim in a debate forum that's open to crituique then it is proper and expected to ask for evidence and a coherent explanation of the evidence. It's you that gets upset that this routine occurs. There are areas where beliefs are protected and critique not allowed.
No defense is required. Your 'kangaroo court' is just a figment of your imagination. They are free to offer you their logical justifications for their beliefs, or not. And your assessments are irrelevant either way to anyone but you and your ego.
Here you go with your Trumpian attitude again, as if you get to discredit debate and the rules of logic because it doesn't go your way. You understand very well why Trump calls the indictments and his trial as corrupt and a kangaroo court. It's what people do who can't actually discredit the law, or in our case, how debate works. If you were correct and confident you would objectively point out what I'm getting wrong and outside the rles of debate and logic. You don't. You just protest the critique because it's not going your way.
If this were so, there would be no way for the rest of us to know.
I asked you if believers who make extraordinary claims are special and have special abilities, and you have no answer. So why should we take their word for what they claim? If they have knowledge, it's on them to prove it. There's no obligation to believe anything anyone claims without evidence.
This "they" you're referring to is just your own biased make-believe "enemy". A dead give-away that you hove become completely lost to the foolishness of your own imaginary righteousness.
Look at more of your vilification and demeaning of my critique. You're going farther now and asserting I see believers as enemies. And that I have bias. These are personal attacks that mischaracterize my actual attitudes, and offer no examples or evidence. This tells us more about you than it does me.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Proof please.

Well, you are learning.

So here are 2 standards for negatives as postives.

Only the in effect purely cogntive ones like 2+2 is not 5 counts as a postive.
Any postive claim of knowing a negative one counts as a postive. E.g. I know there are no gods.

I can give no proof for which standard is a correct, other than pointing out there are at least 2 standards for negatives as postives.
And that matches what I believe, namely that a standard of proof is in a sense a norm for how to think.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Proof works best if it is direct or first hand proof. As an example, I have never been to England. I have no direct proof, it actually exists, based on my own fives senses doing my own exploratory experiments. All the proof I have, is based on taking the word of others, extrapolating photos and using some logic and common sense. That type of proof is not the same as actually having a first hand experience, such as landing in England and then driving and walking around the countryside. Only in that way, my five senses can fully satisfy the burden of direct proof England is real and not have to depend on second or third person accounts, that may be exaggerated, or that my imagination may extrapolate, where is should not go.
I have used this back in my more naive and idealistic days. It was an uber independent framework where I was the arbiter of truth. The one flaw is that if I'm not trusting that England exists, how would I trust people that I have landed in England after the plane lands? It could be France and everyone is lying. How would I know? It's inevitable that we have to trust others, and this is why integrity and reputation is crucial. If you ruin your intergity and reputation you won't be trusted.

There is a trust we all share and accept without having to go to extremes of skepticism.

The irony of your views here is that you trust and accept far rght wing disinformation media, and feel confident in it to post on an open forum where you get criticism for your media choices, and political beliefs.
Atheist require first hand experience for the phenomena called, God. They will not just take the word of others or second hand accounts. However many other things in science get a pass, with people willing to accept things they have never experienced, like dark matter and dark energy in the Lab.
That's because science has an integrity by showing its work. It has an excellent reputation that many believers envy. Religion doesn't. Religion is a social tradition that has ideas spread via social learning, and requires no standard of truth. So critical thinkers understand that science follows a high standard, and that religions don't.
Spiritual people tend to have some first hand data of the divine or even metaphysical, that is satisfying to them; proof of concept of God. This is why spirituality is often personal; personal proof. If I try to share my personal proof, at best it is only second or third hand proof to you, and many feel a need to be skeptical, until they have their own first person proof.
They will have experiences like anyone has experiences. It's how they frame, define, and interpret the experiences they create for themselves that gives them what they believe happens.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Why not just accept the correction and be grateful that someone bothered to point it out? Why does everyone here have to fight every correction no matter how logical or obvious or honest it is?
You did not point out anything valid mate. And you did not respond to what I said when I gave you exactly every single logical fallacy you committed. You were not gracious enough to at least google them so that you know what was said.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Not exactly, if there is no point to your assertion that it is a positive argument then saying so what eliminates it as pointless. It would make it akin to saying, "atheists say the grass is green which is a positive assertion", it is true but pointless and thus best answered with a "so what?"
Another handwave. I am not interested.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
That which is presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
No evidence has been provided whatsoever in the history of mankind? Are you sure? None whatsoever?

And I agree with you. No evidence for the claim that "all religious sources are wrong" so it's "dismissed". Good work.
 

McBell

Unbound
Well, you are learning.

So here are 2 standards for negatives as postives.

Only the in effect purely cogntive ones like 2+2 is not 5 counts as a postive.
Any postive claim of knowing a negative one counts as a postive. E.g. I know there are no gods.

I can give no proof for which standard is a correct, other than pointing out there are at least 2 standards for negatives as postives.
And that matches what I believe, namely that a standard of proof is in a sense a norm for how to think.
A negative claim is a negative claim.
Unless you want to try multiplying it with another negative claim.

I have no interest in doing that simply because it is mixing math with (Le Gasp!) philosophy.

Having burden of proof is not based on a claim being negative or positive.
It is based on a claim being made.

I understand that there are those who claim negative claims are immune from burden of proof.
That claim is simply not true.
 
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