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Why Hadith can NOT be part of Islam

seeking4truth

Active Member
You have analysed the Arabic word sujud. ie. bow

Is this the same word used to ask us to 'worship' Allah?
Does the Quran say anywhere that it is not permitted to bow to a man?

Angels work for God to serve man. They serve man but are subservient to God.
They were not asked to worship man.
 

Union

Well-Known Member
You have analysed the Arabic word sujud. ie. bow

Is this the same word used to ask us to 'worship' Allah?
Does the Quran say anywhere that it is not permitted to bow to a man?

Angels work for God to serve man. They serve man but are subservient to God.
They were not asked to worship man.

Well , the word Sujud simply means to submit , to prostrate , to salute , to oblige to somebody etc. This action is applicable to both physical and mental/symbolical submission . Sujud necessarily not only related to worship rather for any other context implies to . It may can be dedicated to GOD ,the Almighty or dedicated to others than Almighty GOD . When Almighty GOD is involved , then it is all about worship – both in physical and/or spiritual forms . But when it involves others it is obviously not in a form of worship but a state of submission and only in non-physical state , depends on the circumstances . Let us see some examples from Qur’an .

01. Sujud for ALLAH :

a) Physical Sujood :

[048:029] Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves. Thou (O Muhammad) seest them bowing and falling prostrate (in worship), seeking bounty from Allah and (His) acceptance. The mark of them is on their foreheads from the traces of prostration. Such is their likeness in the Torah and their likeness in the Gospel - like as sown corn that sendeth forth its shoot and strengtheneth it and riseth firm upon its stalk, delighting the sowers - that He may enrage the disbelievers with (the sight of) them. Allah hath promised, unto such of them as believe and do good works, forgiveness and immense reward.

[017:107] Say: "Whether ye believe in it or not, it is true that those who were given knowledge beforehand, when it is recited to them, fall down on their faces in humble prostration,
[017:108] "And they say: 'Glory to our Lord! Truly has the promise of our Lord been fulfilled!'"
[017:109] They fall down on their faces in tears, and it increases their (earnest) humility

b) Mental/Symbolic Sujud :

[055:006] The stars and the trees prostrate.

[016:048] Do they not look at God's creation, (even) among (inanimate) things,- How their (very) shadows turn round, from the right and the left, prostrating themselves to God, and that in the humblest manner?
[016:049] And to God doth obeisance all that is in the heavens and on earth, whether moving (living) creatures or the angels: for none are arrogant (before their Lord).

02. Sujud for other than ALLAH , the Almighty :

a) The incident of Prophet Adam, angels and Satan :

As all of us know this famous incident , hence I am not going to repeat it again . What I like to point out here is the Sujud instructed by Almighty GOD to angels and Satan for Prophet Adam was not physical nor it has any relation with worship . Here are the reasons behind this assertion :

01. Verse 2.30 suggests that angels argued with Almighty GOD when HE , The Exalted wanted to place Adam as HIS representative on the earth .
2.31-33 explains that Almighty ALLAH had taught Prophet Adam such wisdom and knowledge that no angels possess . As a result angels realize Adam’s superiority over them – of course in the field of knowledge and wisdom .
Then 2.34 suggests that all angels submitted (sujud) themselves to Adam , not to worship him rather to acknowledge his superiority in the field of knowledge and wisdom .
As Satan was among the angels during this feud , this same scenario was also applicable to him .

02. Now the question is whether that sujud was of physical or symbolical nature . The answer is very straight and forward . Angels and Satan are not made of solid objects like human . Hence a physical sujud is quite illogical to apply on them . 38.76 suggests that Satan was a Jinn and he was created of Fire . Hence his sujud must not be a physical nature . And verse 16.48-50 tell us that the nature of sujud of angels are like the sujud of shadow , celestial bodies (e.g., planets , stars, sun, moon etc.) , earthly animals etc. . Hence it is also a non-physical sujud and a spiritual .

03. This famous incident of Prophet Adam is mentioned repeatedly in Qur’an (e.g., 2:34, 7:11-12, 15:29-32, 17:61, 18:50, 20:116, 38:72-76) but not a single time it involves any physical part of body like face , chin , head , forehead nor any physical movement like fall down or bend over to prostrate etc as these physical elements are used to demonstrate sujud to GOD , the Almighty in other places in Qur’an . In all the case it simply says “…..اسجدوا لادم ” means “Submit to Adam…” .

In a nutshell , Angels and Satan were not ordered to prostate to Adam physically rather they were told to submit to Adam because of his superiority over them in the field of knowledge and intellectuals .

b) The incident of Prophet Yusuf and his family :

Prophet Yusuf’s case is more simple than the case of Prophet Adam . Prophet Yusuf had a vision/dream of this prostration :
[012:004] When Joseph said unto his father: O my father! Lo! I saw in a dream eleven planets and the sun and the moon, I saw them prostrating themselves unto me.

[012:005] He said: O my dear son! Tell not thy brethren of thy vision, lest they plot a plot against thee. Lo! Satan is for man an open foe.

It is impossible even to imagine that round celestial bodies like planets , sun and moon could perform physical sujud . This was only possible when a symbolic/mental submission is portrayed here . Interesting enough , the next verse depicted Prophet Yusuf’s brothers enmity and hostility as the opposite of the symbolic sujud in verse 12.004 . In other words , sujood in verse 04 means their submission to the control and prompt of Prophet Yusuf . This is well in coherence with latter part of the incident when Prophet Yusuf became the ruler and his parents and brothers came under his control , submissively . He then stated :

[012:100] And he raised his parents upon the throne and they fell down in prostration before him, and he said: O my father! this is the significance of my vision of old; my Lord has indeed made it to be true; and He was indeed kind to me when He brought me forth from the prison and brought you from the desert after the Shaitan had sown dissensions between me and my brothers, surely my Lord is benignant to whom He pleases; surely He is the Knowing, the Wise.

Hopefully all these make sense to you .
 
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Sabour

Well-Known Member
Good lecture . Unfortunately the only authority in Islam is ALLAH (swt) and HE didn't authorize Hadith at all . Hence the case is dismissed .

33:21 There has certainly been for you in the Messenger of Allah an excellent pattern for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Last Day and [who] remembers Allah often.

What does that mean to you ?

And why do you reject the hadith ?
 

Union

Well-Known Member
33:21 There has certainly been for you in the Messenger of Allah an excellent pattern for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Last Day and [who] remembers Allah often.

What does that mean to you ?

And why do you reject the hadith ?

Hi One-answer. Hope you are keeping well . You posted a beautiful verse , then I like to post the following verses :


[006:050] Say: "I tell you not that with me are the treasures of God, nor do I know what is hidden, nor do I tell you I am an angel. I but follow what is revealed to me." Say: "can the blind be held equal to the seeing?" Will ye then consider not?

[007:203] If thou bring them not a revelation, they say: "Why hast thou not got it together?" Say: "I but follow what is revealed to me from my Lord: this is (nothing but) lights from your Lord, and Guidance, and mercy, for any who have faith."

[010:015] But when Our Clear Signs are rehearsed unto them, those who rest not their hope on their meeting with Us, Say: "Bring us a reading other than this, or change this," Say: "It is not for me, of my own accord, to change it: I follow naught but what is revealed unto me: if I were to disobey my Lord, I should myself fear the penalty of a Great Day (to come)."

[046:009] Say: "I am no bringer of new-fangled doctrine among the apostles, nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. I follow but that which is revealed to me by inspiration; I am but a Warner open and clear."

Well , now we get a complete picture :

Prophet had an exampled pattern to follow ................(1)
Prophet followed the Qur'an only .........................(2)

Now if you combine (1) and (2) it gives the following result :

The pattern of Prophet that is icon for Muslim is in Qur'an, as Prophet himself followed the Qur'an .

And I told the reasons of rejecting the Hadith time and again , that Hadith are not from Prophet . It was created some centuries after the demise of the Prophet . From his companions none of them recorded a single Hadith . They didn't know what Hadith was . They knew only Qur'an and they well recorded Qur'an from the Prophet and preserved it for their next generations .
 

Sabour

Well-Known Member
Hi One-answer. Hope you are keeping well . You posted a beautiful verse , then I like to post the following verses :


[006:050] Say: "I tell you not that with me are the treasures of God, nor do I know what is hidden, nor do I tell you I am an angel. I but follow what is revealed to me." Say: "can the blind be held equal to the seeing?" Will ye then consider not?

[007:203] If thou bring them not a revelation, they say: "Why hast thou not got it together?" Say: "I but follow what is revealed to me from my Lord: this is (nothing but) lights from your Lord, and Guidance, and mercy, for any who have faith."

[010:015] But when Our Clear Signs are rehearsed unto them, those who rest not their hope on their meeting with Us, Say: "Bring us a reading other than this, or change this," Say: "It is not for me, of my own accord, to change it: I follow naught but what is revealed unto me: if I were to disobey my Lord, I should myself fear the penalty of a Great Day (to come)."

[046:009] Say: "I am no bringer of new-fangled doctrine among the apostles, nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. I follow but that which is revealed to me by inspiration; I am but a Warner open and clear."

Well , now we get a complete picture :

Prophet had an exampled pattern to follow ................(1)
Prophet followed the Qur'an only .........................(2)

Now if you combine (1) and (2) it gives the following result :

The pattern of Prophet that is icon for Muslim is in Qur'an, as Prophet himself followed the Qur'an .


Hello, I hope this message finds you well too.

I was interested in your output, however the way I see it is differently.

Prophet had an exampled pattern to follow ................(1)
Prophet followed the Qur'an only .........................(2)


====> Following the prophet is following the Quraan because the prophet followed the Quraan only.


And I told the reasons of rejecting the Hadith time and again , that Hadith are not from Prophet . It was created some centuries after the demise of the Prophet . From his companions none of them recorded a single Hadith . They didn't know what Hadith was . They knew only Qur'an and they well recorded Qur'an from the Prophet and preserved it for their next generations .

How come Hadith is not from the prophet, he said them. Like he recited the Quraan.

The Quraan was compelled after the death of the prophet. The chain of narrations between the Hadith and the Quraan is the same. So did we choose to trust them when it came to Quraan and not to trust them when it comes to hadith.


In addition, how would we pray without the hadith?
 

Union

Well-Known Member
Hello, I hope this message finds you well too.

I was interested in your output, however the way I see it is differently.

Prophet had an exampled pattern to follow ................(1)
Prophet followed the Qur'an only .........................(2)


====> Following the prophet is following the Quraan because the prophet followed the Quraan only.

How does it differ with what I said ? Between Prophet and Qur'an , Prophet demised 1400 years back but the Qur'an still remained . Hence to follow Prophet , you have to follow Qur'an , isn't it ?


How come Hadith is not from the prophet, he said them. Like he recited the Quraan.

The Quraan was compelled after the death of the prophet. The chain of narrations between the Hadith and the Quraan is the same. So did we choose to trust them when it came to Quraan and not to trust them when it comes to hadith.

The golden chain of Qur'an is as follows :

ALLAH (swt)--->Angel Gabriel--->Prophet Muhammad--->Prophet's companions---> Hard copy of Qur'an.

Prophet's companions were the direct witnesses of Prophet and heard the Qur'an from his very mouth . Then they compiled the Qur'an in hard copies which manuscripts are well preserved in all around the world . You may visit Topkapi , Sana,Taskhand,Cairo, Pitersburgh etc. and you will see those manuscripts .

On the other hand , the history of Hadith is something different. Let us pick the example of Sahih Bukhari , the most authentic book after the Qur'an . Here is its chain :

Prophet Muhammad--->His companions---150/200 years--->Imam Bukhari.

In this long gap of 150/200 years the Hadith was just a hearsay as companions of Prophet didn't write any Hadith in any hard copy . Imam Bukhari was not the eye-witnesses of Prophet nor any of his companions . Even his teachers lived some hundred years after that era . How then it could be same case as the case of Qur'an ?

Let us tackle this issue practically. Can you tell me where is the manuscript of Sahih Bukari preserved and when was it compiled ? Please address this questions first then the others .


In addition, how would we pray without the hadith?

This is a multi-million question from Sunni and Shia :D . Please refer to post#7 of this same thread , it was discussed with Sister Israa already . Thanks .
 
to Hadith followers;
if Quran is your main source of guidance, please show a verse that we must follow a man-made book other than His scriptures

to Quran alone believers;
if Quran is complete, please show a verse telling us name of Prophet Abraham's wife/concubine or mother to ismail and Isaac respectively.

Thank you
 

Draupadi

Active Member
to Hadith followers;
if Quran is your main source of guidance, please show a verse that we must follow a man-made book other than His scriptures

to Quran alone believers;
if Quran is complete, please show a verse telling us name of Prophet Abraham's wife/concubine or mother to ismail and Isaac respectively.

Thank you

Those are not important for worship of God, so they are not mentioned.
 

Aamer

Truth Seeker
to Hadith followers;
if Quran is your main source of guidance, please show a verse that we must follow a man-made book other than His scriptures

to Quran alone believers;
if Quran is complete, please show a verse telling us name of Prophet Abraham's wife/concubine or mother to ismail and Isaac respectively.

Thank you

Sorry guys. I've been away and haven't been on the forum in a long time. I didn't realize this thread was active again. To answer the questions, you won't find either in the Quran. There is no verse saying to follow a man made book which will come in 250-300 years later. There are however many verses which tell us to follow nothing else but the Quran. As for knowing the name of Abrahams wives, etc, it's not important to our salvation. There's not going to be a pop quiz on the day of judgment as far as I know. Peace. -Aamer.
 

Aamer

Truth Seeker
Hello, I hope this message finds you well too.

I was interested in your output, however the way I see it is differently.

Prophet had an exampled pattern to follow ................(1)
Prophet followed the Qur'an only .........................(2)


====> Following the prophet is following the Quraan because the prophet followed the Quraan only.




How come Hadith is not from the prophet, he said them. Like he recited the Quraan.

The Quraan was compelled after the death of the prophet. The chain of narrations between the Hadith and the Quraan is the same. So did we choose to trust them when it came to Quraan and not to trust them when it comes to hadith.


In addition, how would we pray without the hadith?

How do you know he said them? Were you there? How do you know he married a 6 year old? Were you there or could you be defaming the character of a Prophet of God by supporting such accusations without having any evidence?

As far as the chains being the same, this is what your scholars tell you but it's another lie. The Quran was completed during the life of Prophet Muhammad and he wrote it with his own hands. And no he wasn't illiterate. I can prove this Inshallah if anyone is interested. But forget that for now. It's obvious which to choose because the Hadith is full of contradictions & scientific errors and absurdities. The Quran has zero contradictions, supports scientific discoveries 100% and is logical.

As far as how to pray with Quran only, this was explained clearly early in the thread. But tell me... How do you pray WITH Hadith? Which Hadith book did you open up to learn how to pray? Can you show me just one Hadith which explains start to finish, how to pray Salat?

Peace,
Aamer.
 
Those are not important for worship of God, so they are not mentioned.
in that essence Quran is not complete
many questions are let unanswered

if worship is the concern,
what is the purpose of animals mentioned in Quran?
where is the sacred house?
what is kaabah?
what is kiblat?

how/where to perform it?

please share your understanding of the above
 
Sorry guys. I've been away and haven't been on the forum in a long time. I didn't realize this thread was active again. To answer the questions, you won't find either in the Quran. There is no verse saying to follow a man made book which will come in 250-300 years later. There are however many verses which tell us to follow nothing else but the Quran. As for knowing the name of Abrahams wives, etc, it's not important to our salvation. There's not going to be a pop quiz on the day of judgment as far as I know. Peace. -Aamer.
welcome back!!!

agreed, we dont need a man-made book to attain salvation
His scriptures are more than enough to guide us to the right path

but is Quran the only scripture to follow?
hence the question, is Quran really complete?

please show a verse that stated Quran is complete
 

Draupadi

Active Member
The Quran is a complete code of life so mentioning about halal and haram animals are necessary. And yes there are stories about many animals but those are stories for our moral guidance. The Quran is complete in the sense that it has ALL THE GUIDANCE about how to worship and lead a good life. It is NOT a story book like the Bible where even the prophets' faults were shown, which is not necessary for a Christian/Jew to learn IMHO. It is not necessary to know how much alms you have to pay which has been left to our capacities. Of course under or overdoing it will be wrong and foolish respectively, as somebody before me has mentioned. And God Himself has declared there that Islam is a simple religion. Not the OCDish one that the Ahadith had made and that says you have to supplicate both while going up and coming down! The amount of supplications given in the Ahadith makes a man talking machine IMHO, if they follow it exactly.
 
The Quran is a complete code of life so mentioning about halal and haram animals are necessary. And yes there are stories about many animals but those are stories for our moral guidance. The Quran is complete in the sense that it has ALL THE GUIDANCE about how to worship and lead a good life. It is NOT a story book like the Bible where even the prophets' faults were shown, which is not necessary for a Christian/Jew to learn IMHO. It is not necessary to know how much alms you have to pay which has been left to our capacities. Of course under or overdoing it will be wrong and foolish respectively, as somebody before me has mentioned. And God Himself has declared there that Islam is a simple religion. Not the OCDish one that the Ahadith had made and that says you have to supplicate both while going up and coming down! The amount of supplications given in the Ahadith makes a man talking machine IMHO, if they follow it exactly.
I have no objection of your saying on hadith, in fact i agreed with your assesement.

but my question is merely following your claimed being
'Quran is complete and has all the guidance about how to worship'
which you have yet to address it

sorry, perhaps my question on animals is not clear enough
i have amended it and interested to know how you do it - from Quran only

what is the purpose of animals mentioned for sacrifice in Quran?
where is the sacred house?
what is kaabah?
what is kiblat?

and i believe all the above are related to worship,

when Quran is not timid to present an example - that of a mosquito or what is smaller than it (2:26)
why would Quran shy away from prophet's fault?

prophets are human too
like us, they also make mistakes
and Allah does show prophet's fault in Quran
you can see this in 80:1-11
 

Aamer

Truth Seeker
Restnrelax,
Please explain CLEARLY what you would like to know. If Allah gives me the ability to explain, I will. But I am not understanding your request. As for is the Quran complete? Yes. It tells you and I what we need to know as far as our purpose on Earth, our existence, our salvation is concerned. Does it tell us how to pick our nose? No! I can Inshallah explain further with Quranic evidence if you need. Let me know if you get it bro. Peace! -Aamer.
 
Restnrelax,
Please explain CLEARLY what you would like to know. If Allah gives me the ability to explain, I will. But I am not understanding your request. As for is the Quran complete? Yes. It tells you and I what we need to know as far as our purpose on Earth, our existence, our salvation is concerned. Does it tell us how to pick our nose? No! I can Inshallah explain further with Quranic evidence if you need. Let me know if you get it bro. Peace! -Aamer.
All was ask is a verse that says Quran is complete.

if you says complete as for our purpose on Earth, our exisence, our salvation

please provide a verse from Quran only,
if we are to follow the religion of Abraham, who is israel to Abraham?
who is the mother of first mankind (Adam is the father)
through what means can we attain salavation

n regards to picking nose, hadith has explained that in details

thank you
 
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