Like I have said many times,the Palestinian people are proxy war donkeys,Hamas know what they are doing.
I agree about trusting Netanayahu,I don’t trust politicians at all but I wouldn’t envy his task,if not him somebody has to respond.
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Why Has Israel Killed 40,000 Civilians In Gaza?
- Thread starter Jimmy
- Start date
Like I have said many times,the Palestinian people are proxy war donkeys,Hamas know what they are doing.
I agree about trusting Netanayahu,I don’t trust politicians at all but I wouldn’t envy his task,if not him somebody has to respond.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
Of course .. but it would be a good idea to wonder why we get attacked?
..or maybe some of us don't particularly care .. they see themselves as "the good guys".
It's all relative, and dependent upon where we are sitting.
It's immoral that global wealth is becoming more in the hands of a few mega rich, whilst
others struggle to put bread on their table and keep a roof over their head.
As Jesus is reported to have pointed out, for the wealthy to inherit the kingdom of G-d, is
like the camel passing through the eye of the needle.
Israel can never be secure, while their neighbours are made to suffer.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
Firstly, not once have I ever suggested negotiating with Hamas.
Secondly, what if Israel started committing multiple war crimes with those very weapons?
I have little sympathy with the idea that a person is off the hook for burning your house down just because - in some instances - they tell people they're going to do it beforehand. It also doesn't excuse the mass shooting of unarmed civilians, the specific targeting of journalists, the targeting of civilian infrastructure, the use of collective punishment, the annexation of the west bank, or any number of other war crimes.
Israel are responsible for bombing them. Do you believe that a country cannot be guilty of war crimes just because the enemy it is fighting against doesn't care if war crimes happen to the people they're supposed to protect? Is that the standard for basic human rights?
We prosecute war crimes. Israel is currently engaging in them, as is being condemned at the UN by multiple countries for it.
Answer the question. What about WAR CRIMES? Do you understand the difference between "killed as collateral during war" and "killed as a direct consequence of WAR CRIMES?"
Yes, actually. Want to raise any actual challenges to my sources?
So you literally don't believe war crimes exist?
Interesting. So what about when the IDF do those things? Is that okay?
Then your feelings are very dumb and baseless. Meanwhile, you just hate Muslims, which is evidenced in multiple threads. It's pretty obvious who has the actual bias here.
They care enough not to nuke Gaza for obvious reasons. But since I provided dozens of sources that they are committing war crimes, and your only response is to baselessly assert that those sources are without verification, you are literally engaging in war crime denial.
Does not excuse other people committing war crimes. How do you not get this?
It's very, very simple. I will ask again:
I'll make it easy for you:
1) Hamas are bad and engage in war crimes.
2) _______________________________________________
3) Therefore, Israel committing war crimes is justified.
Could you fill in the blank, please?
Right, and it's very dumb to try and drag up events from decades ago to excuse war crimes happening now. So why did you attempt to do that?
Uh huh. How dare I maintain that war crimes are bad. What a terrible "agenda".
Yes. Are you going to apologise?
I think all unnecessary deaths are a tragedy, but not literally criminal. Collateral damage during war time is a tragic but inevitable fact, and understandable.
War crimes, however, are not. Perhaps you think there's a sound, military reason for raping civilians, using them as human shields, collectively punishing people, missile-striking the homes of journalists, killing aid workers and shooting people trying to get food. I don't.
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ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
Please tell me how many war crimes the USA committed in that time.
What you're failing to take account of, which is vital, is HOW they are dying. If their death is due to collateral of reasonable military force applied to military targets, you'd have an argument. If, however, their death is due to either the deliberate targeting of civilian infrastructure or the wilful disregard for civilian life that is referred to as "war crimes".
Do you know what "war crimes" are?
They're these:
Israeli bombing of the Gaza Strip - Wikipedia
Attacks on schools during the Israeli invasion of Gaza - Wikipedia
Attacks on health facilities during the Israel–Hamas war - Wikipedia
Tel al-Sultan attack - Wikipedia
Gaza Strip mass graves - Wikipedia
Israeli blockade of the Gaza Strip (2023–present) - Wikipedia
Gaza humanitarian crisis (2023–present) - Wikipedia
Structural abuse - Wikipedia
Gaza Strip famine - Wikipedia
Killing of health workers in the Israel–Hamas war - Wikipedia
Killing of journalists in the Israel–Hamas war - Wikipedia
Gaza Strip evacuations - Wikipedia
Killing of Alon Shamriz, Yotam Haim, and Samer Talalka - Wikipedia
Human shields in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict - Wikipedia
Stop equating war crimes with legitimate acts of war. Stop engaging in war crime denial.
Gee, almost as if it's a complicated military issue and just knowingly bombing civilian areas, lying about Hamas compounds being everywhere, annexing territory, using civilians as human shields, killing journalists, raping women, mass executing people in hospitals, inciting famine and deliberately targeting refugees is not a particularly humane solution.
Proof, please.
Then acknowledge that and stop excusing the atrocities and equating them to necessary military intervention.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
They suffer because most live in an area with few resources and are involved infrequent wars and conflicts. Do you remember how long Iran and Iraq fought and how many died? Sunni v Shi'a has been an ongoing dispute involving conflict and wars.
With the Palestinians in Gaza, some of them worked on kibbutzim but began to sabotage operations. I know this I visited one and saw the Thais that they hired instead. Gaza City before 10-7 wasn't really any worse than some other cities in the Middle East.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Maybe actually look it up as I saw the tunnel as shown on CNN.
Never,no pro Palestinian has or mentioned the hostages.
It’s not the gun that kills,it’s the one that pulls the trigger.
There are aspects of this conflict I disagree with,illegal settlers etc but let’s just remind ourselves that Fatah were little better than Hamas,the map of the region is imo unworkable.
Atm Israel has rights to recover the hostages,like the embassy siege I would expect my country to free them,Israel had already proved that in Uganda,Nethanayus brother was involved in the success of rescuing those hostages,should Hamas expect anything less.
Whoopee,the UN,I like millions of others had already forgotten about them.
I do but depends on the circumstances.
Not really,sources for courses.
I do,it’s history.
Of course not,if they did nobody is above the law,well in theory.
Wrong,I dislike their ideology that is very apparent doesn’t work.
How many have been prosecuted and found guilty?.
Sure,Israel want their hostages back which btw,taking hostages is a war crime so….
History is an uncomfortable truth especially when it’s still relevant today.
No you should believe what you want.
No.
At last.
This is a very good description of Hamas and the other lunatic terrorists in Gaza,well done.
The premise of Israel killing 40,000 civilians in Gaza is not a given. 1) the 40,000 number source is Hamas and is both unverified and dubious. 2) civilians isn't defined. 3) the putative 40,000 number includes both civilians and combatants or other legitimate targets. 4) the total includes deaths caused by all participants and not just Israel.
Ergo your premise is erroneous in multiple ways.
Ergo your premise is erroneous in multiple ways.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
I do .. and I see the inequality in the world, and know who is responsible.
I wait with bated breath to hear “who is responsible”,ok that’s way over the top but surprise me.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
That's false, I've mentioned the hostages repeatedly. And second, are you now trying to frame negotiating with terrorists as a good thing after saying we shouldn't do it? Also, if nobody mentioned negotiating with Hamas, why did you imply that we were arguing Israel should?
Right. Like the IDF.
So you agree that there are "aspects" you disagree with. What does Fatah have to do with whether or not those aspects are justified? Why not just condemn all of the things you disagree with?
You failed to answer even a single one of those questions, and it's very telling. Do you believe committing war crimes is or was necessary to retrieve the hostages, especially considering that included in the war crimes is the crime of killing multiple hostages?
So you don't care about international law?
Right, so do these incidents that I have given multiple references for, in these circumstances, count as war crimes? In what circumstances do you believe either deliberately targeting civilians, or showing wilful disregard for the lives of civilians, is justified?
So you can't refute a single thing?
No, war crimes do still happen. If you genuinely thought this way you wouldn't accuse Hamas of war crimes either.
Right. So, what do you keep trying to justify or obfuscate the war crimes they commit? If you agree nobody is above the law, why don't you care when Israel goes above the law and commits war crimes?
So you believe that justifies killing them?
How many Hamas soldiers have been prosecuted and found guilty for October 7th?
Currently, there is an arrest warrant for Bibi from multiple countries. We don't tend to wait for the dust to settle on a mass atrocity before passing judgement. The holocaust wasn't totally okay until the Nuremberg trials.
Firstly, I thought you said war crimes were history? Apparently people CAN commit them now.
Secondly, yes, I know. How does that justify committing more war crimes?
Once again, fill in the blank:
1) Hamas are bad and engage in war crimes.
2) _______________________________________________
3) Therefore, Israel committing war crimes is justified.
Do you think it's okay to commit war crimes or not?
Kind of like how you believe war crimes can be reasonably justified by context? You think there's a context in which deliberately targeting and killing civilians is okay, justified or reasonable?
I'll wait.
I've literally been saying that for pages now.
It's also a very good description of the IDF, who you seem to believe have done nothing wrong. So you believe it's okay for one group to commit war crimes, but not the other.
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metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
So, what exactly are you proposing?
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
That's a weird non-sequitur.
How about "people should hold Israel accountable and stop making arguments to justify or minimise war crimes, or to deflect accusations of war crimes".
Yerda
Veteran Member
Extremist.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
It is in no way a non-sequitur.
You offer plenty of complains, some I think are well deserved, but I haven't seen you post any concept of an end game. So, what do expect of Hamas, for example? If Hamas continues the fight even when Israel wants peace, what do expect Israel to do? IOW, what's your "end game"? Please put forth a plan that goes beyond just complaining and pointing fingers at Israel.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
What fight? How many Israelis have been killed since Gaza was invaded?
The Israelis have about 10,000 Palestinian prisoners? How many Israeli prisoners have they got?
The British medical journal The Lancet issued a warning that the actual death toll in Gaza from both direct and indirect causes could be more than 186,000.
Jean-François Corty, a humanitarian doctor and president of the NGO Doctors of the World, said that the Gaza Health Ministry's figures take into account the identified dead, "without taking into account all the dead left under the rubble of the bombardments, or the indirect victims who died because of a lack of care or access to care, or from being transported to a health centre. If you add those who are likely to die of malnutrition or as a result of wounds inflicted by Israeli bombardments in the weeks and months to come, because of the risks of superinfection and because their pathology will be treated late, then yes, the figure of 186,000 deaths mentioned in The Lancet is credible."
- Wikipedia -
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
Yes, it is.
The fact that you characterise me criticising other people for war crime denial, and exposing their logic as identical to that of Hamas in justifying or outright denying mass death, as "complaints" suggests you're not exactly approaching this subject objectively.
Again, what does that even mean? I can't criticise people for engaging in war crime denial (or outright war crime justification) unless I have a "concept of an end game"?
Explain that to me in ways that isn't just you excusing war crime denial.
I've said repeatedly that a reasonable military response to Hamas is appropriate, if not absolutely necessary, to deter future civilian deaths. I've been making this argument since October 7th.
Why is it my job to plan Israel's military operations? Since when has that been my argument?
Please explain to me why this justifies excusing, denying or justifying war crimes against civilians. Please tell me why that shouldn't be called out and criticised, and how what you're doing right now isn't just a desperate deflection from the obvious fact that your arguments downplay and justify war crimes.
Explain that to me.
I mean, this is such an incredibly weird attitude to have. "Oh, you think these people making arguments that ignore, downplay or outright justify murdering civilians en masse shouldn't be making those arguments? Well, how about YOU present a succinct solution to a complex military problem. What's YOUR "end game"? Hmm? Because, obviously, if you don't have an answer, that means that any argument that ignores, downplays or justifies war crimes is absolutely fine, and you have no right to 'complain' about it anymore."
This is wacky non-logic, and a pretty desperate diversion.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
That is a nonsensical post as countries don't try to even up body counts-- they fight to win and destroy, or at least stop, the enemy. So, maybe Hamas should have thought this through as they were the one who assaulted innocent civilians and well knew Israel would respond. As it is, if Hamas stopped, the carnage would end. But you really don't want that, or so it seems.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
Blaming Hamas for the violence inflicted on civilians by the IDF is misguided at best and war crime apologia at worst. Countries don't get a free pass to use civilians for target practice just because it's in reaction to further injustices, and you shouldn't have to rely on the kind-heartedness of hardened militarist terrorists who don't care about civilian deaths to determine when enough war crimes is enough war crimes.