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Why I am a good proof that there is a God

joelr

Well-Known Member
I believe there are people who are Christian in name only in Protestant churches also.


No, you cannot cop out and say a Christian who commits a crime isn't a Christian. It isn't for you to judge and the church allows for confession absolving one of sins

I believe not but I do believe one is less likely to find a born again Christian in the RCC.

There is no difference. Because you say different words and you feel there is some magical effect is not proof.

I believe they are not all the same. Christians do not follow virtues; they follow Jesus.


Good because Plato also said in the Republic that to get average people to follow virtues you have to make a mythology and call non-believers heretics and kill them.
He predicted the Vatical centuries prior. He said people need a God/demigod to follow rules. It's called the Noble Lie.
I believe that statement is a myth.


It's been demonstrated in history that the stories are all taken from older myths. The evidence is clear. Only non-educated religious think this isn't true. So you have been told it's a myth. If you study the field you will see it isn't.

I believe that is evidence that scientists fantasize a lot about archeology.


All biblical archeologists know the Israelites emerged from the Canaanite culture. This isn't in debate. again, inside religious circles you are told things tat are not true.

William Denver biblical Archeologist:

"
Is there mention of the Israelites anywhere in ancient Egyptian records?
No Egyptian text mentions the Israelites except the famous inscription of Merneptah dated to about 1206 B.C.E. But those Israelites were in Canaan; they are not in Egypt, and nothing is said about them escaping from Egypt.
Is there evidence of the Israelites in the central highlands of Canaan at this time?
We know today, from archeological investigation, that there were more than 300 early villages of the 13th and 12th century in the area. I call these "proto-Israelite" villages.
Are there signs that the Israelites came in conquest, taking over the land from Canaanites?
The settlements were founded not on the ruins of destroyed Canaanite towns but rather on bedrock or on virgin soil. There was no evidence of armed conflict in most of these sites. Archeologists also have discovered that most of the large Canaanite towns that were supposedly destroyed by invading Israelites were either not destroyed at all or destroyed by "Sea People"—Philistines, or others.

So gradually the old conquest model [based on the accounts of Joshua's conquests in the Bible] began to lose favor amongst scholars. Many scholars now think that most of the early Israelites were originally Canaanites, displaced Canaanites, displaced from the lowlands, from the river valleys, displaced geographically and then displaced ideologically.

So what we are dealing with is a movement of peoples but not an invasion of an armed corps from the outside. A social and economic revolution, if you will, rather than a military revolution. And it begins a slow process in which the Israelites distinguish themselves from their Canaanite ancestors, particularly in religion—with a new deity, new religious laws and customs, new ethnic markers, as we would call them today.
Archeology of the Hebrew Bible


I believe common ideas do not necessarily mean a common source. In fact I do not believe one may know a source for an idea although one may recognize a quote of a person who said it.

The point is humans already knew these things. In fact the Greeks were far more evolved, wanted to abolish slavery, had democracy. But these were made by humans.
Then Yahweh shows up and gives worse versions of known laws? Or...these were laws the Israelites encountered in Canaan (where they were from) and just made similar laws.
Like the Canaanites these are man made myths and stories from myths. Mostly Mesopotamian some Egyptian.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
It is certainly what you believe, but I cannot say it is evidence for the existence of God in any objective way.

1. I have no way of knowing and you have no way of showing who is speaking to you and how. Neither of us can show others that it isn't something else.

2. Again, the same. You cannot rule out seeing visions as the result of some other cause. You have no way of knowing what God has revealed to me actually happened. I have no way to show you. I cannot show you that it is not the result of mental illness, wishful thinking or some environmental cause. I can talk about it, but you do not have to believe me. It might be evidence of God, but other causes cannot be ruled out.

3. I have had several Christian friends die over the last 18 months due to Covid-19. I have no reason to believe they did not believe in God or had weak faith. I prayed for them. Couldn't God just as easily make us ill to help us grow?

4. Are you free of sin? I am not. God helps me find strength to ignore temptation. But I am weak and sometimes it is very strong temptation. Still, this only shows what you and I believe and how we apply it.

5. Presumably God does this for lots of people, but there are still millions of different personal interpretations of the Bible that can be grouped into some of 43,000 Christian denominations and sects.

6. I believe you. I believe He speaks through me too. I could be wrong for believing one or both. I cannot show my belief to be more than that.

I am glad of your belief and as a Christian I appreciate you for it and accept it. But it is not evidence for others to accept the existence of God. Many people can make the same claims about what they believe in. It cannot be evidence for all of those different beliefs.

One at a time.

1. I believe the Bible gives us evidence to back up what I said. Jesus promised that it would be Him and the Father in the Paraclete when we receive Jesus as Lord and Savior. As for my first hearing from God before I knew Jesus, I believed when I called for God that I would get Him. I do not believe God wil allow another to take His place and the wisdom is what I would expect from God.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me

No, you cannot cop out and say a Christian who commits a crime isn't a Christian. It isn't for you to judge and the church allows for confession absolving one of sins

There is no difference. Because you say different words and you feel there is some magical effect is not proof.


Good because Plato also said in the Republic that to get average people to follow virtues you have to make a mythology and call non-believers heretics and kill them.
He predicted the Vatical centuries prior. He said people need a God/demigod to follow rules. It's called the Noble Lie.


It's been demonstrated in history that the stories are all taken from older myths. The evidence is clear. Only non-educated religious think this isn't true. So you have been told it's a myth. If you study the field you will see it isn't.


All biblical archeologists know the Israelites emerged from the Canaanite culture. This isn't in debate. again, inside religious circles you are told things tat are not true.

William Denver biblical Archeologist:

"
Is there mention of the Israelites anywhere in ancient Egyptian records?
No Egyptian text mentions the Israelites except the famous inscription of Merneptah dated to about 1206 B.C.E. But those Israelites were in Canaan; they are not in Egypt, and nothing is said about them escaping from Egypt.
Is there evidence of the Israelites in the central highlands of Canaan at this time?
We know today, from archeological investigation, that there were more than 300 early villages of the 13th and 12th century in the area. I call these "proto-Israelite" villages.
Are there signs that the Israelites came in conquest, taking over the land from Canaanites?
The settlements were founded not on the ruins of destroyed Canaanite towns but rather on bedrock or on virgin soil. There was no evidence of armed conflict in most of these sites. Archeologists also have discovered that most of the large Canaanite towns that were supposedly destroyed by invading Israelites were either not destroyed at all or destroyed by "Sea People"—Philistines, or others.

So gradually the old conquest model [based on the accounts of Joshua's conquests in the Bible] began to lose favor amongst scholars. Many scholars now think that most of the early Israelites were originally Canaanites, displaced Canaanites, displaced from the lowlands, from the river valleys, displaced geographically and then displaced ideologically.

So what we are dealing with is a movement of peoples but not an invasion of an armed corps from the outside. A social and economic revolution, if you will, rather than a military revolution. And it begins a slow process in which the Israelites distinguish themselves from their Canaanite ancestors, particularly in religion—with a new deity, new religious laws and customs, new ethnic markers, as we would call them today.
Archeology of the Hebrew Bible




The point is humans already knew these things. In fact the Greeks were far more evolved, wanted to abolish slavery, had democracy. But these were made by humans.
Then Yahweh shows up and gives worse versions of known laws? Or...these were laws the Israelites encountered in Canaan (where they were from) and just made similar laws.
Like the Canaanites these are man made myths and stories from myths. Mostly Mesopotamian some Egyptian.

I believe I have generalized. There are three levels of Christian faith even for a true believer as opposed to the ones who just claim to be: 1. God works in the background but the person tends to act mostly on his own which means he can sin, 2. God leads a person which means that it is a lot less likely the person can sin 3. God is in complete control which means the person can't sin. I have been in all three in my Christian life and am at 3 now. There is also what the Pentecostals call "stronghold sins" which like Pedophilia may only be overcome by a great deal of prayer. The RCC did not pray but swept it under the rug instead. Protestants tend to just toss the person out which is not correct also.
 

Dan From Smithville

For the World Is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky
Staff member
Premium Member
One at a time.

1. I believe the Bible gives us evidence to back up what I said. Jesus promised that it would be Him and the Father in the Paraclete when we receive Jesus as Lord and Savior. As for my first hearing from God before I knew Jesus, I believed when I called for God that I would get Him. I do not believe God wil allow another to take His place and the wisdom is what I would expect from God.
Thanks for the answer.

We share the same beliefs, but differ in our views about how those beliefs can be shared with those that believe differently, don't believe or find no reason to believe. It is the latter view that interests me the most regarding claims and discussion here.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
One at a time.

1. I believe the Bible gives us evidence to back up what I said.

I believe you are wrong, where do we go from there?

Jesus promised that it would be Him and the Father in the Paraclete when we receive Jesus as Lord and Savior.

We have no evidence that Jesus said anything, assuming he did exist, which is by no means assured.

As for my first hearing from God before I knew Jesus, I believed when I called for God that I would get Him. I do not believe God wil allow another to take His place and the wisdom is what I would expect from God.

Do you know what a circular reasoning fallacy is?
 
I believe first and foremost God is real because He abides in me.

My testimony to that affect should be enough but people need to know there are discernable affects that indicate god is present.

1. God speaks to me.
2. God gives me dreams and visons.
3. God heals my diseases.
4. God keeps me from sin.
5. God helps me to understand scripture
6. God speaks through me.
While I am not disputing nor affirming the existence of God, I think you are going about it the wrong way by using YOUR personal and subjective experiences to try and prove that something objectively exists. You will need to bring objective (or at least rational), non-personal proofs to try and make your point. I am not invalidating what you are saying but, your reasons (subjective) are best suited in combination with the objective as a tool that will help prove your point. Not the other way around and used as the foundations and main point of your "argument".
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
While I am not disputing nor affirming the existence of God, I think you are going about it the wrong way by using YOUR personal and subjective experiences to try and prove that something objectively exists. You will need to bring objective (or at least rational), non-personal proofs to try and make your point. I am not invalidating what you are saying but, your reasons (subjective) are best suited in combination with the objective as a tool that will help prove your point. Not the other way around and used as the foundations and main point of your "argument".

I believe then you think I know noting because all my knowledge is personal.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
I believe then you think I know noting because all my knowledge is personal.

All your knowledge is personal, but it's not solely personal, that is axiomatic. You know how to read and write, did no other human share this knowledge with you first? Did that knowledge not match what other humans had learned independently of your personal knowledge about literacy?
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
While I am not disputing nor affirming the existence of God, I think you are going about it the wrong way by using YOUR personal and subjective experiences to try and prove that something objectively exists. You will need to bring objective (or at least rational), non-personal proofs to try and make your point. I am not invalidating what you are saying but, your reasons (subjective) are best suited in combination with the objective as a tool that will help prove your point. Not the other way around and used as the foundations and main point of your "argument".

I believe that is not bad for a rookie but I believe you need to read some earlier posts about subjectivity/objectivity.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Thanks for the answer.

We share the same beliefs, but differ in our views about how those beliefs can be shared with those that believe differently, don't believe or find no reason to believe. It is the latter view that interests me the most regarding claims and discussion here.

I believe we share some of the same views but I am an iconoclast which makes it likely that we differ on some things as well.

I would like to hear you share your experience. I would consider it supportive.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
I believe I have generalized. There are three levels of Christian faith even for a true believer as opposed to the ones who just claim to be: 1. God works in the background but the person tends to act mostly on his own which means he can sin, 2. God leads a person which means that it is a lot less likely the person can sin 3. God is in complete control which means the person can't sin. I have been in all three in my Christian life and am at 3 now. There is also what the Pentecostals call "stronghold sins" which like Pedophilia may only be overcome by a great deal of prayer. The RCC did not pray but swept it under the rug instead. Protestants tend to just toss the person out which is not correct also.

You haven't demonstrated any Gods so this is all make-believe.
But even make-believe has rules, which scripture supports level 1-3 of faith?

I don't see the numbers yet either?

Also, when a child is molested you can pray all you want but what you do is call the police. If they didn't they are a criminal organization.
 

Kfox

Well-Known Member
I believe first and foremost God is real because He abides in me.

My testimony to that affect should be enough but people need to know there are discernable affects that indicate god is present.

1. God speaks to me..
When you say God speaks to you, are you talking about voices in your head? Or is this an audible voice that you hear.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
You haven't demonstrated any Gods so this is all make-believe.
But even make-believe has rules, which scripture supports level 1-3 of faith?

I don't see the numbers yet either?

Also, when a child is molested you can pray all you want but what you do is call the police. If they didn't they are a criminal organization.

The criminal extent of the RCC's complicity in child abuse goes much father than merely doing nothing. There is overwhelming evidence they protected the guilty from justice, and what's worse moved then to new areas to prey on and victimise countless child victims anew, again and again.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
You haven't demonstrated any Gods so this is all make-believe.
But even make-believe has rules, which scripture supports level 1-3 of faith?

I don't see the numbers yet either?

Also, when a child is molested you can pray all you want but what you do is call the police. If they didn't they are a criminal organization.

I believe you can call the police but neither the police nor the justice system ever changed a person. Correction is a myth.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
When you say God speaks to you, are you talking about voices in your head? Or is this an audible voice that you hear.

As well as my own voice and the voice of my spirit I also have the voice of God in my head. The only audible I ever had was of a chorus during a Good Friday service. There had been a choir but they had stopped singing. I tried looking around trying to figure where the singing was coming from until I realized it wasn't anyone in the church.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
The criminal extent of the RCC's complicity in child abuse goes much father than merely doing nothing. There is overwhelming evidence they protected the guilty from justice, and what's worse moved then to new areas to prey on and victimise countless child victims anew, again and again.
They are a criminal organization for sure.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
I believe you can call the police but neither the police nor the justice system ever changed a person. Correction is a myth.

Your feelings on correction do not matter. It's a crime to not report child abuse and child rape.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Your feelings on correction do not matter. It's a crime to not report child abuse and child rape.
Exactly, but not just a crime, is there anyone who would seriously not do everything in their power to prevent a child be raped? Yet we are to believe a perfectly merciful deity with limitless power and knowledge, sits on its hands and lets it happen all the time. Were it true, such a deity would be an amoral monster.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
You haven't demonstrated any Gods so this is all make-believe.
But even make-believe has rules, which scripture supports level 1-3 of faith?

I don't see the numbers yet either?

Also, when a child is molested you can pray all you want but what you do is call the police. If they didn't they are a criminal organization.

Level one:
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

Level two:
Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Level Three:
Rom 8:4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
 
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