WHY I LEFT ISLAM - The Story of An Apostate In Saudi

[LuisDantas]

why do you doubt God's existence?

In a nutshell, it would make no sense for a Creator God to exist.

Not with a world that all but screams to be of random existence. Not when people have to go to such extremes to even understand each other, when anyone can end up investing a lot of effort into a birth only to find out that it happens to be acephalic or hydrocephalous (sp?).

But perhaps most of all, it makes no sense that people would make such a big deal of the need of believing in God's existence if he did in fact exist.

 

[Smart_Guy]

How about reversing the religion to not hold such deep fanaticism and fundamentalism, so that it once again could accept all knowledge and science, instead of defending a ancient book with little real knowledge.

So that it can let go of the literalism and not believe in the mythology so deeply. Your own so called prophet warned you about living to much religion, but these warnings were ignored.

If the people did not live the religion and lived life instead without the mythology and theology, maybe they would quit murdering each other over sectarian issues and the west could ignore you all.

Then it would not be the same religion, but another one. What warning do you believe I ignored?

I disagree with the last line. I'm living the religion and everyone (hopefully) seems to have good impressions about me.

Not seeing the flaw, myself. Would you like to elaborate?

I mean the OP'er is saying that it is something personal to them and they want to share their experience, and they post this video. Something seems off to me. Also, you said it yourself:

For what it is worth, the video has a single audio narration in the first person. The video proper is a montage from various thematically-chosen other videos. The narrator himself is never shown in the video.

Although I must say, this matter of he not "being real" sure unsettles me.

Which seems to me you're having a mixed feeling about it.

The way I see it, a religion - any religion - is a living, collective activity. It both can and, in fact, must reform itself constantly in order to remain vital and healthy.

Hmm... I'm trying to see your view here, but I really can't. I can't see how a religion can reform itself.

Thanks!

Anytime, L.D.

That seems to me to unavoidably require some form of interpretation and choice.

How else could one claim both a lack of compulsion and how and when to punish apostasy? Clearly apostasy is only possible and punishable because there is indeed some measure of compulsion.

Well, that is not really a definition of religion I can support. It may fairly describe Islam and perhaps Christianity, maybe even Judaism. But I would not call that religion at all.

This is where different interpretations by different people play role. For me, I believe that executing apostates is superseded in Islam and at this point it is abolished. You think you can consider this a reformation on my part?

 

[Jumi]

In Islam one can try to scientifically challenge the Islamic belief systems...

You mean from within the doctrines.

Islam has its proofs...You bring yours...

What are the proofs that support killing your friends because he realized he couldn't believe?

On the other hand, Islam is not just a set of beliefs...It is a whole system..

System of beliefs is the same as a set of beliefs.

Although we as Shia Muslims believe that Islam was hijacked and the governments which came after the prophet were not Islamic, Islam is a religion and a state...

But why should belief be forced on people? Is there nothing you have that would convince someone and if there isn't why kill someone because they don't agree with you? A daughter, a son?

Every state has its laws to deal with defectors...

So you don't think any non-Shia of your country is loyal, but a defector? This makes me think that people who think like you couldn't be loyal citizens in other countries. My country has taken Shia refugees... what do you think?

 

[FearGod]

So you are saying that the video is biased, inaccurate or not representative?

I wish I could agree. But I do not. The evidence is simply way too consistent.

No, i said it's a poor propaganda by the disbelievers.
If I don't like Buddha or Hindus...etc then i don't need to make a video
to show that such religions are awful, everyone should feel free as of
which religion suits him with no need to wrong the others.

 

[LuisDantas]

Something seems off to me. Also, you said it yourself:

Which seems to me you're having a mixed feeling about it.

No, you misunderstood me. I find the video entirely believable and reasonable, and it disturbs me that there are people who do not.

Hmm... I'm trying to see your view here, but I really can't. I can't see how a religion can reform itself.

If a religion is defined by its obedience to settled directives, perhaps it can't.

But I don't think that makes sense, personally.

This is where different interpretations by different people play role. For me, I believe that executing apostates is superseded in Islam and at this point it is abolished. You think you can consider this a reformation on my part?

I guess I do. But as I said, I consider that any religion worth its salt will be reforming itself continuously as a matter of course.

 

[LuisDantas]

No, i said it's a poor propaganda by the disbelievers.
If I don't like Buddha or Hindus...etc then i don't need to make a video
to show that such religions are awful, everyone should feel free as of
which religion suits him with no need to wrong the others.

That does not give me any hint of why anyone should not consider the video seriously.

 

[FearGod]

That does not give me any hint of why anyone should not consider the video seriously.

Yes it's a poor propaganda, for me i don't take it seriously, but for you
and some others will support such kind of silly videos.

That's my opinion about it, a poor propaganda, do you see it other than a poor propaganda?

 

[Smart_Guy]

No, you misunderstood me. I find the video entirely believable and reasonable, and it disturbs me that there are people who do not.

Oops. sorry about that. Now, that's really interesting.

If a religion is defined by its obedience to settled directives, perhaps it can't.

But I don't think that makes sense, personally.

Hmm... I still can't understand, but thank you for spending the time to explain it to this humble one

I guess I do. But as I said, I consider that any religion worth its salt will be reforming itself continuously as a matter of course.

I'm still having a really hard time getting your point in having a religion reforming itself. Now worries tho. Thank you for sharing your view.

 

[LuisDantas]

Yes it's a poor propaganda, for me i don't take it seriously, but for you
and some others will support such kind of silly videos.

Is it at all silly? I think quite the opposite. People have not really awakened for the real extent of the seriousness of those matters.

That's my opinion about it, a poor propaganda, do you see it other than a poor propaganda?

I sure do.

It could go a bit deeper, but it is after all a short video.

 

[LuisDantas]

@Smart_Guy : It seems that we may hold what can well be entirely incompatible understandings of what a religion is and should be.

I hesitate to say so in so many words, but most Muslims and many Christians seem to actually believe that religion is supposed to be subservience to a set of rules supposedly coming from God.

That, quite simply, will never be either credible nor even a religion at all far as I am concerned. That goes a long way towards explaining why it is so difficult for me to even understand the popularity of Islam, let alone echo it in myself.

Religion as I understand it is something else entirely. It is about community, the seeking of good convivence and virtue in a more general way. it is about daring to accept and accepting to be different. About good will and the price that comes with it. About daring to understand the sacred as well as we possibly can and deal with the irreversible consequences.

It is most definitely not about God, although the concept often ends up being raised anyway.

 

[YmirGF]

Though I am hesitant to call this video a piece of propaganda, I don't believe that it is a genuine story either.

That said, I think the video makes some good, albeit clumsy, points are the inherent intolerance built into Islam. One can see this intolerance right here in this thread from a few of the Muslim posters. Slander is one of the most serious crimes in Islam and one should be able to understand how that effectively stifles vibrant discussion. We are told to be respectful or polite to fanatical believers who have little patience with those who think differently. This is largely because Muslims living in Muslim majority countries are not used to having their thinking questioned or their logic pushed against. Apostasy is the smoking gun (almost literally, at times) where as the inherent fanaticism and intolerance of anything not Islamic are the fires that load and fire the weapon.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Though I am hesitant to call this video a piece of propaganda, I don't believe that it is a genuine story either.

Yet what it's trying to imply could still be valid. Everything is possible. You know how controversies go when it come to Muslim countries, even by Muslims themselves.

 

[FearGod]

Is it at all silly? I think quite the opposite. People have not really awakened for the real extent of the seriousness of those matters.

You can see it as a serious video but i can see it nothing other than a poor propaganda.

I sure do.

Yes i know.

It could go a bit deeper, but it is after all a short video.

If it was serious then it can be a long video, but it isn't.

 

[Smart_Guy]

@Smart_Guy : It seems that we may hold what can well be entirely incompatible understandings of what a religion is and should be.

I hesitate to say so in so many words, but most Muslims and many Christians seem to actually believe that religion is supposed to be subservience to a set of rules supposedly coming from God.

That, quite simply, will never be either credible nor even a religion at all far as I am concerned. That goes a long way towards explaining why it is so difficult for me to even understand the popularity of Islam, let alone echo it in myself.

Religion as I understand it is something else entirely. It is about community, the seeking of good convivence and virtue in a more general way. it is about daring to accept and accepting to be different. About good will and the price that comes with it. About daring to understand the sacred as well as we possibly can and deal with the irreversible consequences.

It is most definitely not about God, although the concept often ends up being raised anyway.

Which I believe is completely okay. It is normal for sides to not see truth in each other's views and opinions. Different people are different after all and this is life. We must accept it.

 

[FearGod]

Though I am hesitant to call this video a piece of propaganda, I don't believe that it is a genuine story either.

That said, I think the video makes some good, albeit clumsy, points are the inherent intolerance built into Islam. One can see this intolerance right here in this thread from a few of the Muslim posters. Slander is one of the most serious crimes in Islam and one should be able to understand how that effectively stifles vibrant discussion. We are told to be respectful or polite to fanatical believers who have little patience with those who think differently. This is largely because Muslims living in Muslim majority countries are not used to having their thinking questioned or their logic pushed against. Apostasy is the smoking gun (almost literally, at times) where as the inherent fanaticism and intolerance of anything not Islamic are the fires that load and fire the weapon.

No, it isn't about slandering, but to claim leaving a religion because some scholars
believe that apostates should be killed is lying and a poor propaganda.

You won't agree with me about even simple logical things that i say just because you support
such propaganda even though it doesn't make sense and you even agreed that it doesn't.

 

[LuisDantas]

You can see it as a serious video but i can see it nothing other than a poor propaganda.

Yes i know.

So you will not even try to defend your case?

If it was serious then it can be a long video, but it isn't.

Nonsense. Plenty of long videos are worthless.

 

[FearGod]

So you will not even try to defend your case?

Defend what? will you trust my words if i do, why i need to waste the effort.

Nonsense. Plenty of long videos are worthless.

Having several opinion and a lengthy discussion by asking the opinions
of several scholars and their views than just make it one sided.

You take it seriously because you don't care about the truth as you're in the same line,
but if you think in fairness then you should agree that the video is kind of propaganda and
not a serious one.

 

[LuisDantas]

Defend what? will you trust my words if i do, why i need to waste the effort.

I trust your words, not in the least because they tell me that the criticism is valid and must be taken more seriously than it usually is. That is obviously not what you want, but it is what you are telling me.

Even your choice of words here - the effort is only "wasted" if it can't fulfill a valid purpose.

There are actual people and serious decisions involved. One would expect that to be enough to present a valid defense, if it did exist.

Having several opinion and a lengthy discussion by asking the opinions
of several scholars and their views than just make it one sided.

You take it seriously because you don't care about the truth as you're in the same line,
but if you think in fairness then you should agree that the video is kind of propaganda and
not a serious one.

You are insulting me and lying. That does your credibility no favors.

 

[FearGod]

I trust your words, not in the least because they tell me that the criticism is valid and must be taken more seriously than it usually is. That is obviously not what you want, but it is what you are telling me.

Even your choice of words here - the effort is only "wasted" if it can't fulfill a valid purpose.

There are actual people and serious decisions involved. One would expect that to be enough to present a valid defense, if it did exist.

Will you agree with this verse then, it's from the quran, the holy book for the Muslims?

There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.(2:256)

You are insulting me and lying. That does your credibility no favors.

Not insulting but just my opinion.

 

[leibowde84]

I just watched this video...

I must say that I never have seen anyone who claim to be an ex Muslim really criticizing the Islamic belief system and the foundations of the Islamic overall system...

They tend to be unhappy about some Islamic Laws that they don't like...

As this video is!

Its message is that: I am not happy about the Islamic law regarding apostasy, and that is why i will apostate!

The message in this video is not consistent ...it is clear that it was put by an outsider from the religion of Islam...

He claim that at the beginning he was not happy about Islam..then he read about evolution(?!) ..and then he re-read Islam and because of terrorism he left Islam and is calling for Islam to be reformed!

This is surely not a Saudi mentality...

And finally, we must say that Islam has many sects and schools, and most of the victims of the "Islamic" terrorism are Muslims...

Shia In particular are the first target of the terrorists.

Obviously, those still adherent to Islam would be biased in this topic. Thus, it seems that outside views are much more objective and relevant.