WHY I LEFT ISLAM - The Story of An Apostate In Saudi

[Smart_Guy]

Do you think there's ever a need for the death penalty in this day and age?

Yes, I believe so. One could see it is not, depending on the peacefulness in their community, but the world is a big place that varies heavily from one place to another. I believe that some places may not need it, but as a general rule for the whole on humanity, I believe it should be there somewhere between the lines at least as a last resort, worst case scenario, what-choice-do-we-have-in-some-special-cases, option. Please don't get me wrong, I personally hate it, but I'm diverse in not having it completely neglected as a perfect rule.

The rights and health of the community are the sole purpose of forgiveness. Measure the health of the world society and remember what I'm telling you for a future date.

I don't completely disagree with you. Forgiveness is not always the only solution, tho I agree that it is one. Forgiving a brutal rapist that went to rape again is not in place. I'm not denying the virtue and importance of forgiveness. Believe me, I don't want anyone to be executed. The road to execution is clear anyways. Why don't offenders just stay away from it? Why do they still commit murder and brutal rape and get forgiveness for it? If somehow a way is there to prevent murder and brutal sexual child rape having them stopped, death penalty for them will automatically never take place, will it not? Islam teaches to forgive, by the way. It just does not enforce it on the holder of the right.

 

[Kirran]

Yes, I believe so. One could see it is not, depending on the peacefulness in their community, but the world is a big place that varies heavily from one place to another. I believe that some places may not need it, but as a general rule for the whole on humanity, I believe it should be there somewhere between the lines at least as a last resort, worst case scenario, what-choice-do-we-have-in-some-special-cases, option. Please don't get me wrong, I personally hate it, but I'm diverse in not having it completely neglected as a perfect rule.

But in a situation where it's at all practical to abolish the death penalty, would you support such a move?

For example, in the UK there is no death penalty - were you to move to the UK and be given the right to vote, and there was a referendum on reinstating it, which way would you go?

 

[Smart_Guy]

But in a situation where it's at all practical to abolish the death penalty, would you support such a move?

For example, in the UK there is no death penalty - were you to move to the UK and be given the right to vote, and there was a referendum on reinstating it, which way would you go?

I'm confused, what is your impression that I support death penalty for? I don't support it for apostasy or the general right of free speech. My point is that as a general rule, I believe death penalty should not be abolished. The only reason I would accept abolishing it is having a perfect world in the part of having crimes that I believe deserve execution never happen again. This could be true in some places already, but as a general rule for humanity, I think it is far from happening.

I actually did not understand the second question. Sorry

 

[Kirran]

I'm confused, what is your impression that I support death penalty for? I don't support it for apostasy or the general right of free speech. My point is that as a general rule, I believe death penalty should not be abolished. The only reason I would accept abolishing it is having a perfect world in the part of having crimes that I believe deserve execution never happen again. This could be true in some places already, but as a general rule for humanity, I think it is far from happening.

I actually did not understand the second question. Sorry

Well I mean in general principle. I suppose it comes down to why one would kill somebody for something, and whether it's ever something which the criminal deserves? Or is it simply something of practical necessity in some situations?

What crimes are truly deserving of the death penalty?

 

[Jumi]

Do you think there's ever a need for the death penalty in this day and age?

What crimes are truly deserving of the death penalty?

I think these deserve a new, fresh topic.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Well I mean in general principle. I suppose it comes down to why one would kill somebody for something, and whether it's ever something which the criminal deserves? Or is it simply something of practical necessity in some situations?

What crimes are truly deserving of the death penalty?

Let's see, I'm not having specific crimes in mind, but at least the murderers in this article:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rderers-given-life-jail-freed-kill-again.html
should have been executed instead of imprisonment for some time, going out again and committing further murder. Execution of one murderer, even if it is for a small future doubt, is absolutely better than having the slightest possibility of them murdering more innocent people. It is also not like I'm in favor of execution of bystanders, I'm talking about inhumane murders and similar crimes like brutal child sexual rape for example.

Ah, Jumi said something as I finished typing the above and I agree with him. Please have a look at it. I think the thread has gone off topic with this.

 

[LuisDantas]

Some people are very agitated, like Christopher Hitchens, that Muslims don't eat swine. They would themselves don't spare anything from eating.
Regards

I have not heard of that. Do you have a reference you might feel willing to share with me?

 

[paarsurrey]

I have not heard of that. Do you have a reference you might feel willing to share with me?

Chapter-3 "A Short Digression on the Pig; or, Why Heaven Hates Ham" : Book "God is not great" : by Christopher Hitchens.

Regards

 

[YmirGF]

I have not heard of that. Do you have a reference you might feel willing to share with me?

Considering Hitchens has been dead for a couple of years it is unlikely that he is agitated over anything.

 

[Jumi]

Considering Hitchens has been dead for a couple of years it is unlikely that he is agitated over anything.

I was thinking the same thing...

 

[LuisDantas]

Chapter-3 "A Short Digression on the Pig; or, Why Heaven Hates Ham" : Book "God is not great" : by Christopher Hitchens.

Regards

I have read it. He does not seem at all agitated to me.

 

[paarsurrey]

I have read it. He does not seem at all agitated to me.

Christopher Hitchens thought it important to write a chapter to it while it is not a core issue of any religion.
He had only a shallow knowledge of religion. He just wrote the book to ridicule the religion.
Regards

 

[outhouse]

The thing is, no one can ever represent anything belief/religion/theology in full nowadays, neither for himself nor for others.

Non sequitur.

Some religions promote different dogma, and some of that dogma is primitive IMHO. And islam is not the only guilty party.


We were talking about levels of religious devotion in context. People so devoted they would murder to protect their own faith.

 

[Sees]

Christopher Hitchens thought it important to write a chapter to it while it is not a core issue of any religion.
He had only a shallow knowledge of religion. He just wrote the book to ridicule the religion.
Regards

I think he used it because, in the opinion of many non-believers, it makes no sense to throw the prohibition of pork into scriptures. It is a good early salvo going into discussion of whether or not we consider certain books as The Word of God/Truth/Authority.

 

[LuisDantas]

Christopher Hitchens thought it important to write a chapter to it while it is not a core issue of any religion.

A five-page chapter in a book of almost 300 pages, and one that points out many other aspects of the pig/pork taboo at that, mostly related to the grasp of exagerated superstition.

Why you perceive "agitation" in such a chapter I can't figure. The text itself does not support such a reading at all.

He had only a shallow knowledge of religion.

That is true. A characteristic he had, and which he shared with most religious people.

He just wrote the book to ridicule the religion.
Regards

Nope. Ridiculing religion is just a means towards an end, which is to point out and remind people of how absurd the concessions made to it have grown.

 

[paarsurrey]

I think he used it because, in the opinion of many non-believers, it makes no sense to throw the prohibition of pork into scriptures. It is a good early salvo going into discussion of whether or not we consider certain books as The Word of God/Truth/Authority.

Dietary habits do have effects on one's physical health, and moral and spiritual significance. What difference it makes if G-d, the All-Knowing prohibits certain things while he had bestowed so many other good things?
Why Christopher Hitchens did not object on not eating a dead animal?:

[5:4]Forbidden to you is the flesh of an animal which dies of itself, and blood and the flesh of swine; and that on which is invoked the name of one other than Allah; and that which has been strangled; and that beaten to death; and that killed by a fall; and that which has been gored to death; and that of which a wild animal has eaten, except that which you have properly slaughtered; and that which has been slaughtered at an altar.And forbidden is alsothat you seek to know your lot by the divining arrows. That isan act ofdisobedience. This day have those who disbelieve despaired ofharmingyour religion. So fear them not, but fear Me. This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favour upon you and have chosen for you Islam as religion. But whoso is forced by hunger, without being wilfully inclined to sin, then, surely, Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful.
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=5​

Did he like to eat the dead animals?
Regards

 

[LuisDantas]

Dietary habits do have effects on one's physical health, and moral and spiritual significance. What difference it makes if G-d, the All-Knowing prohibits certain things while he had bestowed so many other good things?

The question is rather "why should one attribute the validity of things to a speculative God's approval when there are so many clearer and more meaningful criteria available?"

 

[icehorse]

Christians and Jews tend to be more tolerated in Sunni Countries than the Shiites...
We all remember how Shiites in Egypt were lynched just for being Shiites, while Christians are generally are free to practice their religion in Egypt...

The only Shiite country that says to be implementing Islam is Iran. And non-Muslims are not targeted for their religion there. indeed, the Jews in Iran, although there number is very tiny, they have an MP in the parliament and their living conditions are better than the average Iranians.

Hey Shia Islam,

I didn't want you to lose track of this. My research indicates that since 1948, the Jewish population in Iran dropped from about 150,000 to less than 9,000. Doesn't that support my claim that Muslim majority countries push out other religions? I'm not saying it proves it, but doesn't it support it?

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

Christopher Hitchens thought it important to write a chapter to it while it is not a core issue of any religion.
He had only a shallow knowledge of religion. He just wrote the book to ridicule the religion.
Regards

Some of the largest commercial pig farms house 500,000 pigs under a single roof.
Pigs are intelligent creatures smarter than dogs that can express and feel emotion and pain
Frustration drives them to bite one another's tails and ears off. Their pens are so tightly packed that the animals can barely turn around. Pregnant pigs are confined to gestation crates . Veterinarians also see behaviors in these confined sows that are indicative of depression and emotional trauma .
Also is unclean with bacteria E. coli, staph, Salmonella, and bacterium
67 percent of human diseases are of animal origin.

 

[paarsurrey]

Hey Shia Islam,
I didn't want you to lose track of this. My research indicates that since 1948, the Jewish population in Iran dropped from about 150,000 to less than 9,000. Doesn't that support my claim that Muslim majority countries push out other religions? I'm not saying it proves it, but doesn't it support it?

The Jews are gathering in Israel in fulfilment of a prophecy in Bible:
Yechezkel - Ezekiel - Chapter 22:15-22

15I will scatter you among the nations and fling you out into the lands and I will make your impurity completely disappear out of you.
16And you shall be profaned within yourself before the eyes of the nations, and you shall know that I am the Lord."
17And the word of the Lord came to me, saying:
18"Son of man! The house of Israel has become dross to Me; all of them are copper and tin and iron and lead in the midst of a furnace; dross of silver have they become.
19Therefore, so said the Lord God: Because you have all become dross, therefore behold, I gather you together into the midst of Jerusalem.
20As they gather silver, copper, iron, lead, and tin into the midst of a furnace to blow fire upon it, to melt it, so shall I gather with My wrath and with My fury, and I shall cast you in and melt you.
21And I shall gather you, and I shall blow upon you with the fire of My anger, and you will be melted in its midst.
22As silver is melted in the midst of a furnace, so will you be melted in its midst, and you shall know that I, the Lord, have poured out My fury upon you."
http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16120​

Regards