WHY I LEFT ISLAM - The Story of An Apostate In Saudi

[outhouse]

The Jews are gathering in Israel in fulfilment of a prophecy in Bible:

Are they?

Or are you just quote mining ancient literature?


It is there home not yours

 

[paarsurrey]

The question is rather "why should one attribute the validity of things to a speculative God's approval when there are so many clearer and more meaningful criteria available?"

With a bigger goal in sight one leaves the minor things. G-d guided us to His path that goes to Him. We could leave minor things for that object in mind. The core beliefs are OK to be discussed.
Christopher Hitchens had shallow knowledge in these matters.
If a Muslim eats the forbidden things, what harm could he make to our G-d. No harm at all.
Regards

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I wonder how many people stay with Islam purely out of fear?

This is why I keep saying not all Muslims are bad. There are many who are desire reform, who want change, but what they are essentially dealing with is Foucault's "Spectacle of the Scaffold," and they see those who are brave enough to stand up, and it often does not end well.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

With a bigger goal in sight one leaves the minor things. G-d guided us to His path that goes to Him. We could leave minor things for that object in mind. The core beliefs are OK to be discussed.
Christopher Hitchens had shallow knowledge in these matters.
If a Muslim eats the forbidden things, what harm could he make to our G-d. No harm at all.
Regards

The only problem with that is you can't have big ideals if the smaller ones get compromised. It's like a house without a foundation; it won't stand.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

we have high status of woman in politics and had.you can search and see yourselves.

This:

Is not a high status for women, putting them in high regards, or even respecting them.

 

[outhouse]

Is not a high status for women, putting them in high regards, or even respecting them.

Let alone talking about equal rights or the simple task of even driving a car.

 

[MARCELLO]

Right, because we're not allowed to voice opinions on things we hear are happening in lands far away. Ever. I guess Raif Badawi can forget about international pressure to end his unjust sentence and barbaric punishment for his non-crimes then. Immoral acts committed through a religion that claims to be a complete, perfect moral & political system needed to be exposed and challenged at every opportunity - otherwise Islam's claims to such go unchallenged and people are more inclined to see it for what it claims to do as opposed to how it really works.

You miss a point ,it is not just accusing the system at all; people want sheria rule .

 

[Shia Islam]

Hey Shia Islam,

I didn't want you to lose track of this. My research indicates that since 1948, the Jewish population in Iran dropped from about 150,000 to less than 9,000. Doesn't that support my claim that Muslim majority countries push out other religions? I'm not saying it proves it, but doesn't it support it?

I am not sure about the numbers..

But Iran previous tyrant, the Shah, was an Israeli ally, and most of the migrations happened during his rule...

What few people know is that the Iranian Revolution is has had wide Jewish support in Iran..

Also grand Ayatollah Makarim Shrazi, whose rank in the Islamic Seminaries may be even greater than the current leader of Iran, is of Jewish descent and has close relations to the Jewish community in Iran..

 

[LuisDantas]

With a bigger goal in sight one leaves the minor things. G-d guided us to His path that goes to Him. We could leave minor things for that object in mind. The core beliefs are OK to be discussed.

That is a lot of dogma for anyone to believe in. Far more than would be healthy, IMO.

Christopher Hitchens had shallow knowledge in these matters.

It seems to me that you have more shallow knowledge than his used to be, though.

If a Muslim eats the forbidden things, what harm could he make to our G-d. No harm at all.
Regards

I can only assume Hitchens' chapter was entirely lost on you, because you are not even attempting to address it. And I mean that, it is no exageration at all.

 

[LuisDantas]

I am not sure about the numbers..

But Iran previous tyrant, the Shah, was an Israeli ally, and most of the migrations happened during his rule...

What few people know is that the Iranian Revolution is has had wide Jewish support in Iran..

How do you reconcile that statement with the numbers that show that less than 5% of the previous Jewish population remain?

Do you mean "wide support" from those who remain, or from those who used to be?

Should we assume that those who remain were picked for somehow seeing fit to support the current regime, perhaps?

Also grand Ayatollah Makarim Shrazi, whose rank in the Islamic Seminaries may be even greater than the current leader of Iran, is of Jewish descent and has close relations to the Jewish community in Iran..

That does not seem to be doing a lot of good for Iran-Israel relations, now does it?

 

[Smart_Guy]

Non sequitur.

Some religions promote different dogma, and some of that dogma is primitive IMHO. And islam is not the only guilty party.

We were talking about levels of religious devotion in context. People so devoted they would murder to protect their own faith.

You said I don't represent all Islam and I said no one can ever represent a religion/belief/theology today. Truly non sequitur, right?

Again, you seem to have a specific definition of devotion. Devotion is not a fixed attitude, it depends on the person. Devotion is a neutral notion.

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

You said I don't represent all Islam and I said no one can ever represent a religion/belief/theology today. Truly non sequitur, right?

Again, you seem to have a specific definition of devotion. Devotion is not a fixed attitude, it depends on the person. Devotion is a neutral notion.

Apathy - Indifference- Devotion - Fanatical
Devotion is top end scale of measure is OK I have small understanding of Islam .
Islam for the most devoted to God , yes I understand

 

[Sakeenah]

This video is a little more personal than my others, but I feel like I need to get this off my chest as it's something I've been walking around with for a long time.
Coming out as an ex Muslim is something that many people compare to coming out as gay in the 70's. Apostasy is a crime in every theocracy remaining, and Muslim apostates face threats, torture, and discrimination in those countries for their entire lives.
Today, I want to talk to y'all about my experience with Islam, and how I was able to finally escape it. Hope you enjoy.

Hi

Welcome to the forum : ). I'm a born muslim and I chose to practice Islam. I know many men and women who converted and find true tranquility and hapiness in Islam. You can google..Why I accepted Islam and you will see that there are people from every background who accept Islam willingly.
So you might have the feeling you escaped it and found freedom and I might have the feeling that through Islam I found tranquility and freedom.

Allah says in the Quran ; "There shall be no compulsion (in acceptance) of religion "
2:256

In another verse it says " to your religion to me my religion"
109:1-6

There is no compulsion in religion and one shouldnt be a muslim out of fear. In regards to death penalty there's a clear difference of opinion.

Islam doesnt need any reform in chapter 5:3 it says:
" This day I have perfected your religion for you, completes my favor upon you and I have chosen for you Islam as your religion.

This doesn't mean muslim communities dont have issues..and we muslims are far from perfect.

A lot of muslims especially those in muslim countries mix their cultural beliefs with Islam and we see the negative effect.. honour killings,fgm, forced marriages ,discrimination etc.
Those muslims care more about their honour and status within the community.There is also a extremist minority (isis and co.) who use Islam to achieve political aims.

Solution here isnt to say ..we should reform Islam. Majority muslims will not accept this because it goes against the basic beliefs of a muslim.

Personally I belief that we should promote more dialogue and discussion within the muslim community.And also ask muslim scholars to actually educate the muslim community and condemn extremism,discrimination and promote equality.

 

[Agnostic Religiophile]

I would just like to offer my own (slightly biased) thoughts on this topic if I may and contribute to the discussion...

Many people talk about "Islam" as if it is a monolithic religion but I believe it would be a lot more helpful and informative - also there would be a lot less generalising - if when discussing Saudi Arabia we could limit the talk to mainstream salafism (or Wahhabism).

For example the controversies of the death penalty for apostasy, the niqab (covering of the face ex. the eyes) and beheadings are often mentioned thus leading to the idea that Islam needs a reformation.

Today the 4 traditional schools of thought (making up 80+ percent of Muslims) are still dominant within Sunni Islam (excluding of course, Saudi Arabia) and have been since the end of the 9th century without having gone through any major changes, bar one or two areas

The reformation, or revival as Wahhabists/Salafists view it, was by the same people that view the niqab as mandatory, beheadings as the best form of execution and apostasy as a crime that must without doubt be punished by death

Whereas for the mainstream of traditional Islamic scholars, beheadings are a disliked form of execution, the niqab is not religious (although it is classed as reccomended for those who are very attractive by many) and apostasy is associated with treason thus forming many opinions, some are of the view that females shouldn't be killed and others of the view that it must be combined with other crimes to be punished by death

In conclusion, I believe that we should limit the talk to Salafism when discussing Saudi Arabia or make it clear that we are talking about aspects of Islam, not Islam as a monolithic religion.

The other point I wanted to add to the discussion was that there is a reformation, and it is being led by Saudi Arabia and other like minded individuals who want what they see as a return to the early days of Islam free from innovation

I also can't help but feel that the man in the video had to go through a lot because he left a very scriptualist/"literalist" view of Islam, rather than opening his eyes to mainstream views on the punishment for homosexuality, evolution in Islam etc.

Late disclaimer: I do not endorse the death penalty for apostaty even if it is, for example done by a tribe that secedes from the state, lashes for homosexual intercourse and a complete ban on alcohol - views that are all held by mainstream Islamic scholars

 

[icehorse]

Hi Agnostic, and welcome.

A couple of points: you said "mainstream views on the punishment for homosexuality, evolution in Islam.." Can you explain what those mainstream punishments are?

You say that most commonly "apostasy is associated with treason". I hope you understand that this very idea represents an attack against western secular societies, correct?

 

[Agnostic Religiophile]

Thank you for the welcome icehorse

The punishments in Sunni Islam are 39 lashes (according to 50% of jursists), 100 lashes (according to 36% of jursists), death (according to 2% of jurists - what Saudi follows)

Then in the 4th school of thought (which represents about 12% of jurists), there today seems to be a difference of opinion between stoning to death although that opinion has become less common, so it may be death, a jail sentence or anything within reason really, it's harder to tell nowadays becuase there is less work on the subject and scholars will prefer to not talk about this topic

But bear in mind that these are all maximum punishments (for most), so I would guess that in a hypothetical Islamic state there could be two mainstream situations, after 2 witnesses witness the penetration (I apologise if that's a bit much) between 2 sane men and establish it was consensual:
1) they would be convicted and on their first offence it would be made public (possibly on the news or made to admit it in public), on the second offence maybe a fine and on the third 39 lashes in public
2) first offence - it would be made public, second offence - 50 lashes, third offence - 100 lashes

But please note that this is all speculation and nobody can know for certain and is only from my understanding of Sunni jurisprudence, traditionally it was the judges choice so he could also pardon them, under certain interpretations I've heard, one can be put to death if you are a repeat offender and the crime is serious enough, the amount of witnesses may differ, some don't punish private crimes etc

Regarding treason, I didn't understand exactly what you meant but I don't think I explained properly... It was associated with treason in the sense that becuase one lived in an Islamic state it was seen as treacherous to leave Islam, therefore for many jurists women couldn't be punished (partly becuase men were viewed as violent). This also related to the fact that Muhammad punished apostaty because it also meant breaking the pledge of allegiance, splitting off from the Muslims and joining a hostile trible i.e. treason. Most jursits recognised the context and explained it, they largely just never seemed to understand that the context had changed

 

[outhouse]

You said I don't represent all Islam and I said no one can ever represent a religion/belief/theology today. Truly non sequitur, right?

You may be taking me out of context.

you seem to have a specific definition of devotion.

Not really. I view people by how much they refuse academic knowledge in favor of theology and mythology.

Many theist follow academic knowledge the exact same way I do, and represent their religion as best they can.


Example. YEC are so devoted, they refuse education and knowledge. Islam from what I see follows this example.

Devotion is not a fixed attitude, it depends on the person. Devotion is a neutral notion

Devotion is anything but neutral. Devotion "can be" a literal perversion of reality on one end of the spectrum, to following academia. But it is not neutral.

Correct it is not fixed and it does depend on the person.

Sadly you group enough religious individuals together and PATTEERNS evolve we call dogma. The dogma is the religions fault regardless of the individual.

 

[outhouse]

For example the controversies of the death penalty for apostasy, the niqab (covering of the face ex. the eyes) and beheadings are often mentioned thus leading to the idea that Islam needs a reformation.

And who could accept these as anything but primitive?

 

[outhouse]

I believe that we should limit the talk

I agree with much of what you write here. You have a good grasp on this.

But we should not limit anything, and we should look at the religion as being multi cultural. You are correct it is not a monolithic religion. BUT the religion itself can be addressed as a whole where certain aspects are tied to most all muslims.

 

[Smart_Guy]

You may be taking me out of context.

Not really. I view people by how much they refuse academic knowledge in favor of theology and mythology.

Many theist follow academic knowledge the exact same way I do, and represent their religion as best they can.

Example. YEC are so devoted, they refuse education and knowledge. Islam from what I see follows this example.

Devotion is anything but neutral. Devotion "can be" a literal perversion of reality on one end of the spectrum, to following academia. But it is not neutral.

Correct it is not fixed and it does depend on the person.

Sadly you group enough religious individuals together and PATTEERNS evolve we call dogma. The dogma is the religions fault regardless of the individual.

I'm really trying hard to find sense in what you're saying. You said it yourself that Islam had a golden age and Muslims already contributed tons to academic knowledge. Unless by academic knowledge you mean what's claimed to be real history?