Why I support Israel...and why you should, too

[LuisDantas]

What, so the only possible reason to oppose burning women is so that they may be raped? Really?

 

[FlyingTeaPot]

Apparently so.

 

[Badran]

not an assumption, it requires only minimum common sense to understand that, mughal's who enjoyed molesting women have no respect for women and are cold blooded. Where is the possibility for the same mughal's to stand for women's rights? Also should not forget the craving mind for women of mughals.

I think i should say that FlyingTeaPot's point is that we stick to facts. Making assumptions isn't fair.

I think may be you're taking this too emotionally and therefore exaggerating. He is not defending Muslims but rather trying to show the exaggerations in some of the claims made in this thread.

I have a question by the way. Don't you think that the reason there was a mass sati, was because there was a whole lot of dead men? i'm asking because i want to get a better understanding of the situation. In other words, sati is a practice of a woman burning herself to join her dead husband. Now, a war comes, and a whole lot of men die, i mean its war. So its only logical that a whole lot of women well burn themselves because there are a whole lot of dead husbands. I mean how is those older muslims (mughals their name, right?) at fault that women burnt themselves? on the surface it seems that it is built on the assumption that they burnt themselves to escape the muslims taking them as wives, but on the other hand isn't that what they always did? I mean why assume their reasons were different in that particular incident. Please correct me if i'm wrong, i'm just trying to clarify a few things.

As for why would the mughals try to ban and/stop that practice, i think its safe to say that you're assuming, i mean we are not sure.

 

[nameless]

What, so the only possible reason to oppose burning women is so that they may be raped? Really?

but here it is mughals, the dirty creatures...
ok im taking back my statement

during when mughal's ruled, about 80 million hindus were persecuted. Even mughals mass persecuted innocent hindus, who belonged to their own kingdoms for they are infidels or to molest their wives. They tried every brutal fashions of murdering. Imagine how much did mughals gave value to the lives of men....if the sati was for men, instead of women, would the mughals issue ban for that?

 

[nameless]

I think i should say that FlyingTeaPot's point is that we stick to facts. Making assumptions isn't fair.

I think may be you're taking this too emotionally and therefore exaggerating. He is not defending Muslims but rather trying to show the exaggerations in some of the claims made in this thread.

I have a question by the way. Don't you think that the reason there was a mass sati, was because there was a whole lot of dead men? i'm asking because i want to get a better understanding of the situation. In other words, sati is a practice of a woman burning herself to join her dead husband. Now, a war comes, and a whole lot of men die, i mean its war. So its only logical that a whole lot of women well burn themselves because there are a whole lot of dead husbands. I mean how is those older muslims (mughals their name, right?) at fault that women burnt themselves? on the surface it seems that it is built on the assumption that they burnt themselves to escape the muslims taking them as wives, but on the other hand isn't that what they always did? I mean why assume their reasons were different in that particular incident. Please correct me if i'm wrong, i'm just trying to clarify a few things.

As for why would the mughals try to ban and/stop that practice, i think its safe to say that you're assuming, i mean we are not sure.

spot on badran, but why should they commit this even before their husbands get killed?

 

[Badran]

spot on badran, but why should they commit this even before their husbands get killed?

You mean they did it even before the battle? Just in case in other words?

Well, bare with me, i just want to take the chance to learn more about this.

Was the Hindus at the time much weaker, that it was inevitable that they'd lose? I mean was it safe for the wives to know that as soon as mughals broke in there husbands would be killed?

If that was the case, then may be they did it because they knew they were going to do it anyway, so there is no point in waiting and facing the horrors of the battle and seeing their husbands get killed an so on. In other words, my main point is, that the mass sati, as in the huge number here, would still be directly caused by the war. I'm trying to find out the reason for the high numbers.

 

[Duck]

Although I am not Jewish, I strongly respect the Jewish people and Israel's right to exist. Why should you support Israel? Read this article to find out.

Why Support Israel?

Personally, I neither support nor defend Israel. It exists as a country, and needs to stand on its own merits. Presently, Israel is an ally of the US, and due to various commitments, treaties and understandings, gets an inordinate amount of support from the US, both fiscally and materially. Personally, I don't really know enough of the internal politics of Israel to judge its behavior, although generally, I am vaguely disapproving of its treatment of what is effectively a group of internal refugees (Palestinians). Just as I am disapproving of the US treatment of what is effectively a group of internal refugees (Native Americans).

I think that a large part of the tension between the US and various Middle Eastern, African and Asian countries is due to the unquestioning and unwavering support of Israel by the US, but I also think that this support is not the only reason for tensions between the US and those entities.

I do question the necessity for the volume of support given to Israel, no strings attached, given that Israel is a well established country, which has demonstrated its readiness and willingness to quite capably wage war on its neighbors. I think that the US might be better off using some of the many millions of dollars going to Israel to repair some of the aging infrastructure found throughout our country. I also question the reasoning for support of Israel as being a democracy. Just because a country has a similar form of government, does not mean that the country deserves unquestioning support.

 

[Caladan]

I do question the necessity for the volume of support given to Israel, no strings attached, given that Israel is a well established country, which has demonstrated its readiness and willingness to quite capably wage war on its neighbors. I think that the US might be better off using some of the many millions of dollars going to Israel to repair some of the aging infrastructure found throughout our country. I also question the reasoning for support of Israel as being a democracy. Just because a country has a similar form of government, does not mean that the country deserves unquestioning support.

I'd like to sharpen these two points.
the American support as it were to Israel, is absolutely not 'no strings attached', which doesnt make much sense in international politics and is non existent on the world stage of politics. the American support for Israel (financially) is a gurantee that Israel continues to spend the same support and its own resources on American hardware, 75% of the military aid Israel receives from the US must be spent in the US.
as for democracy, its not only that Israel is a democracy and therefore shares similiar values to the US, it is that it is a democracy in the middle east, and therefore is a natural ally for the US in a strategic region where other nations have not been practicing the type of political system that Israel has nor do they practice similiar social agendas which both Americans and Israelis can relate to. it has been in the interest of the US to establish these of relations with Israel already decades ago, when Israel was used as a foothold of American interest in the region against the grip of the Soviet bloc on the Arab states.

 

[Caladan]

The Israeli society and government are not the same, thats what i'm saying. If people relate to the Israeli society, thats not what i'm objecting to. But to support the government with no objections is a different story.

What do you mean by supporting the government though?

This kind of talk won't help us reach anything.

With all due respect, calling the Israeli-Palestinian conflict a genocide has never helped reach anything.

And calling whats done harsh measures doesn't come any way near a fair assessment. May be genocide is not the most fair or accurate to say, but calling it mere harsh measures is not fair at all. Would you call it criminal acts? and disgusting things? I'm talking about killing civilians and destroying lives, killing children and women, deriving people out of their homes, taking more land to this very day.

But that is exactly what it is. I've served for a few years in the Israeli military, and I was never ordered to kill any civilians, I was however ordered to take measures that put myself and my comrades at risk in order to avoid civlian casualties. does it always work in a conflict zone? obviously not. every conflict around the world in which civilians are in the middle of, especially in ultra urbanized areas, there will be civilian casualties.

Yes thousands killed in one incident that happened more than thirty years ago, and its called black september or something, its shameful. And hundreds of thousands expelled also happened a long time ago. What is still happening today and in recent times, is the poor conditions for refugees, and apparently some criminal incidents in Lebanon. Perhaps there may be a bit more, but still lumping all this together as happening today is not fair.

Im having a very hard time following your argument. just like the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is stretched over a preiod of decades, and when we discuss it, members bring all the relevant points in history which involve the conflict, so am I bringing the condition of the Palestinians from the previous decades up to today. and I still do not understand why you limit the information I bring to 'along time ago', when it is obviously not, I am talking about 30 years ago, 20 years ago, 10 years ago, and today, this is an on going condition for the Palestinians in Arab states, just like it is an on going condition for the Palestinians in the Gaza strip and the WB.

I didn't mean mentioning the blockade, i meant the killings part. As for the blockade. There is more than one possibility here, with putting in mind certain things. First, we must put in mind that Egypt does help Palestinians, in more than one way (but not doing a good job at it). Second, for the reasons, there are speculations, and i'm not sure to be honest. Some of those who criticize Egypt for this, actually say that this is done under pressure from the US and Israel, which would be quite treasonous to say the least. Another possibility is that it is done not as a punishment, but rather because of problems i'm sure you're aware of. In that case, whilst this would be quite disgusting, but at least we do help to an extent.

It is done by Egypt because the Egyptian leadership sees it as a necessary security measure, and they find it essential to secure their border with the Gaza strip, and to contain Hamas which the Egyptian leadership is troubled by its relations to the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, and therefore a danger to stabillity in Egypt. furthermore the contact between Hamas-Hezballah-Iran is also threatening to Egypt, as Egypt had to deal with weapons smuggles across the Egyptian border by the trio.

I would add though, it doesn't interest me at all to defend Arab countries. I criticize them all the time. And pretty much most if not all of them are not in anyway shape or form good governments or leaders in my opinion. While they vary of course, but none of them is doing a great job, and some of them are doing a terrible job, and a couple are criminals.

What is the social force in the Arab society do you think that can bring a change?

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Far as I'm concerned, the US can cut funding to Israel anyday. I'm sure Israel can take care of itself.

 

[Badran]

What do you mean by supporting the government though?

I'm talking mainly about people who support Israel unconditionally. And do not do anything to stop the crimes committed, while doing somethings on the other side to help Israel.

With all due respect, calling the Israeli-Palestinian conflict a genocide has never helped reach anything.

I didn't mean the whole thing was such, i just meant some of the things done fit the description.

But that is exactly what it is. I've served for a few years in the Israeli military, and I was never ordered to kill any civilians, I was however ordered to take measures that put myself and my comrades at risk in order to avoid civlian casualties. does it always work in a conflict zone? obviously not. every conflict around the world in which civilians are in the middle of, especially in ultra urbanized areas, there will be civilian casualties.

Well, thats very hard to comprehend to be honest. I can't see how is it possible that this would be the case. Would you say then that may be some soldiers do not follow these orders? And do you think there isn't anything done by some Israeli soldiers that fit the description of crimes? And do you not view some of the things done by the ISraeli government as horrible stuff (I mean at least somethings)?

Im having a very hard time following your argument. just like the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is stretched over a preiod of decades, and when we discuss it, members bring all the relevant points in history which involve the conflict, so am I bringing the condition of the Palestinians from the previous decades up to today. and I still do not understand why you limit the information I bring to 'along time ago', when it is obviously not, I am talking about 30 years ago, 20 years ago, 10 years ago, and today, this is an on going condition for the Palestinians in Arab states, just like it is an on going condition for the Palestinians in the Gaza strip and the WB.

My point is, that we clarify that not every thing from what you said is ongoing. In other words, yes refugees still are in bad conditions, yes apparently still there is crimes committed in Lebanon against them. But lets not mix that up with certain incidents that happened a long time ago.

It is done by Egypt because the Egyptian leadership sees it as a necessary security measure, and they find it essential to secure their border with the Gaza strip, and to contain Hamas which the Egyptian leadership is troubled by its relations to the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, and therefore a danger to stabillity in Egypt. furthermore the contact between Hamas-Hezballah-Iran is also threatening to Egypt, as Egypt had to deal with weapons smuggles across the Egyptian border by the trio.

Yeah, there were an incident just recently about smuggling. However Egypt can help much better than it does.

What is the social force in the Arab society do you think that can bring a change?

Well, there aren't any one force. But there are lots of people who fight these things like groups, and some of the media. There are some people dedicated to fight the injustices and oppression contained within the government of their country.

 

[Caladan]

I'm talking mainly about people who support Israel unconditionally. And do not do anything to stop the crimes committed, while doing somethings on the other side to help Israel.

I suppose it all boils down to different interests, and different social and geographical background.

Well, thats very hard to comprehend to be honest. I can't see how is it possible that this would be the case.

Western soldiers don't receive orders which state that their targets are civilians.

Would you say then that may be some soldiers do not follow these orders? And do you think there isn't anything done by some Israeli soldiers that fit the description of crimes?

Unfortunately even in a military system discipline is violated. Israeli TV and media recently aired a program about a breakdown of such discipline in a specific unit and cases of ill treatment of Palestinians by the unit's soldiers. so yes, the problems are known, are reported by the Israeli media, and also in some cases by soldiers.

And do you not view some of the things done by the ISraeli government as horrible stuff (I mean at least somethings)?

Obviously there is much to criticize, there are many debates inside Israel about the Israeli-Palestinian issue, there are many distinct issues which are criticized inside Israel and are part of the daily social and political debate. there are also many Israeli human rights groups which work for the Palestinians and work to bring the many issues to public attention.

My point is, that we clarify that not every thing from what you said is ongoing. In other words, yes refugees still are in bad conditions, yes apparently still there is crimes committed in Lebanon against them. But lets not mix that up with certain incidents that happened a long time ago.

So why should we discuss the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to all its history? why should we discuss the Palestinian refugees for example? when people discuss and debate the Israeli-Palestinian conflict they debate such issues as the situation in 1948, and the occupation of the Gaza Strip and the WB in 1967. furthermore I hardly think I bring things which happened a long time ago, they all happened in the later part of the 20th century, in recent years, and today, all relevant to the Palestinian condition and treatment by various people and governments. when do we begin measuring a long time ago? should the expulsion of Palestinians from gulf states be considered a long time ago for example? it happened in the 1990s, when Iraqis tried to do the same, it only happend in recent years.

Well, there aren't any one force. But there are lots of people who fight these things like groups, and some of the media. There are some people dedicated to fight the injustices and oppression contained within the government of their country.

What are the most pressing social and political issues that Arab societies face and should focus on do you think?

 

[Badran]

I suppose it all boils down to different interests, and different social and geographical background.

Do you think interests should supersede ethics and morals?

In other words, i don't believe anything justifies unconditional support for any country that is involved in such things. (which is not only Israel).

Western soldiers don't receive orders which state that their targets are civilians.

May be so, but then they are doing a pretty lousy job at following orders, because there are plenty of civilian casualties, too much. Though its worth mentioning that i think the number of casualties tends to decrease, and its been so for a while now.

Unfortunately even in a military system discipline is violated. Israeli TV and media recently aired a program about a breakdown of such discipline in a specific unit and cases of ill treatment of Palestinians by the unit's soldiers. so yes, the problems are known, are reported by the Israeli media, and also in some cases by soldiers.

Thats very good to know.

Obviously there is much to criticize, there are many debates inside Israel about the Israeli-Palestinian issue, there are many distinct issues which are criticized inside Israel and are part of the daily social and political debate. there are also many Israeli human rights groups which work for the Palestinians and work to bring the many issues to public attention.

Okay i understand Caladan, and glad to here there are such groups in Israel, thats a really positive thing to hear.

Though i still don't get wether or not you view some of the things done and were done as criminal or not. Because criticizable doesn't mean criminal.

So why should we discuss the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to all its history? why should we discuss the Palestinian refugees for example? when people discuss and debate the Israeli-Palestinian conflict they debate such issues as the situation in 1948, and the occupation of the Gaza Strip and the WB in 1967. furthermore I hardly think I bring things which happened a long time ago, they all happened in the later part of the 20th century, in recent years, and today, all relevant to the Palestinian condition and treatment by various people and governments. when do we begin measuring a long time ago? should the expulsion of Palestinians from gulf states be considered a long time ago for example? it happened in the 1990s, when Iraqis tried to do the same, it only happend in recent years.

I'm not saying we shouldn't discuss it, I'm merely pointing out that some of the barbaric things you referred to do not happen today, not to make it less important, but merely to insure that nobody misunderstands.

What are the most pressing social and political issues that Arab societies face and should focus on do you think?

I'd say some of the cultural ideas. There are very unhealthy cultural habits and values that do not affect the society positively. Lots of spread ideas that are very negative.

As for politics, i think we need to be much more active in seeking better systems or improving our systems and decreasing the power that our governments have.

 

[Caladan]

Do you think interests should supersede ethics and morals?

In other words, i don't believe anything justifies unconditional support for any country that is involved in such things. (which is not only Israel).

As the old saying goes: all is fair in love and war. most nations im familiar with are cought up with moral dilemmas, so is Israel, the unique nature of Israel and its unique position in the middle east and history of dealing with terrorism and radical Islam, make it a very relevant nation for many people to pursue interests with.

May be so, but then they are doing a pretty lousy job at following orders, because there are plenty of civilian casualties, too much. Though its worth mentioning that i think the number of casualties tends to decrease, and its been so for a while now.

It all depends how you look at it. we can also turn the tables around and blame the high number of casualties on terrorist tacticts, for example Hamas and the Palestinians are notorious for using their own civilians to their own ends. life is very cheap in Gaza city, and the the loss of Palestinian lives is a victory for Palestinian propaganda.

Okay i understand Caladan, and glad to here there are such groups in Israel, thats a really positive thing to hear.

Though i still don't get wether or not you view some of the things done and were done as criminal or not. Because criticizable doesn't mean criminal.

I dont really look at it in such terms, the Israeli government has a responsibility to use the Israeli security services to safe gaurd a normal way of life for Israeli citizens, Israel has as unique reality, while Israeli citizens strive to live in a normal western society, it has to deal with radical elements other western societies do not.
that being said, I view some of the strategies of Israeli governments in dealing with violence against Israel as resorting to an Iron fist agenda, some agendas I view as unconstructive.

I'm not saying we shouldn't discuss it, I'm merely pointing out that some of the barbaric things you referred to do not happen today, not to make it less important, but merely to insure that nobody misunderstands.

I simply disagree. like I said, they have all happened in the scope of the last few decades, and some of them are happening today, it makes it very relevant, just like talking about "67 borders" and the refugees of 1948 is relevant when people talk about the Israeli-Palestinian confilct.

I'd say some of the cultural ideas. There are very unhealthy cultural habits and values that do not affect the society positively. Lots of spread ideas that are very negative.

Like what?

As for politics, i think we need to be much more active in seeking better systems or improving our systems and decreasing the power that our governments have.

Do you think there is a political alternative for the current political situation in your country and the other Arab states?

 

[arimoff]

All the points, all the arguments and complaints, all of it is pointless.
Until people continue to blame one nation for all the problems one nation out of 200 the problem will remain. Until Muslims blindly blame Israel and Jews while the terrorists who are mostly Muslims them selfs go unmentioned and are quietly being backed up by the begets of European leadership and its hateful population no peace will come.

You can make any kind of claims you want you can tell me not all Muslims are like that, its not fare to generalize the entire population, call me a hater and racist but where are those Muslims who are different? where are their claims for a fare treatment of both parties? where are those people of the so called civilized countries? where are all those so called people of human rights? when will they take the streets to defend the people of other countries whose rights contently being threatened? Where are those Muslims who take the streets against Israel to protest the treatment of Muslims in Arab countries? You only complain against Israel so to me all your actions are worth less then a penny, it is disgusting so save your claims for so called poor Palestinians for a kid in the first grade, you should be ashamed of your selfs.

 

[Badran]

As the old saying goes: all is fair in love and war. most nations im familiar with are cought up with moral dilemmas, so is Israel, the unique nature of Israel and its unique position in the middle east and history of dealing with terrorism and radical Islam, make it a very relevant nation for many people to pursue interests with.

Like i said earlier, it don't excuse unconditional support. I guess we view it differently. To me, nothing whatever it is justifies overlooking the bad side. Not saying that nobody should support Israel, but unconditional support is not something i can understand nor view as justified. There are people who support Israel, but they make it clear that they are completely against its actions towards Palestinians.

It all depends how you look at it. we can also turn the tables around and blame the high number of casualties on terrorist tacticts, for example Hamas and the Palestinians are notorious for using their own civilians to their own ends. life is very cheap in Gaza city, and the the loss of Palestinian lives is a victory for Palestinian propaganda.

Its always been that way Caladan. To blame Hamas for the actions of Israel is something i can not understand. While of course, not exempting them(Hamas that is). And i'm aware of the possibility that Hamas is using this for their advantage. I've made it clear i have no respect nor support for Hamas.

But once again nothing, absolutely nothing can be a justification for such killing of civilians.

I dont really look at it in such terms, the Israeli government has a responsibility to use the Israeli security services to safe gaurd a normal way of life for Israeli citizens, Israel has as unique reality, while Israeli citizens strive to live in a normal western society, it has to deal with radical elements other western societies do not.
that being said, I view some of the strategies of Israeli governments in dealing with violence against Israel as resorting to an Iron fist agenda, some agendas I view as unconstructive.

You don't view killing children as criminal? While you've made it clear you're against that, but unconstructive just seems like a too practical way to put it and to look at it. That is not at all a fair assessment.

I simply disagree. like I said, they have all happened in the scope of the last few decades, and some of them are happening today, it makes it very relevant, just like talking about "67 borders" and the refugees of 1948 is relevant when people talk about the Israeli-Palestinian confilct.

Let me put it in different words. It is relevant, we should talk about it, but we shouldn't make it sound like its all happening today, some of it is, but not all.

Like what?

Like how women are viewed(but not in all places, and not all on the same levels). Also too much people live their lives according to social "norms" and common expectations. Like how passive lots of people are. They are busy with the hardships in their lives.

Do you think there is a political alternative for the current political situation in your country and the other Arab states?

You mean a different type of system to run the country?

 

[Badran]

I know this is not necessarily addressed to me, but i will respond because i've done the exact opposite of the things you mentioned here.

All the points, all the arguments and complaints, all of it is pointless.
Until people continue to blame one nation for all the problems one nation out of 200 the problem will remain.

I think i tried my best to make it clear that Israel do not have the entire blame on it, nor can it solve this issue alone.

I also aim the same kind of sentiments and criticism against any other country who does the same stuff. I always criticize the US for the war in Iraq for example, in a very similar manner to the one i do against Israel.

Until Muslims blindly blame Israel and Jews while the terrorists who are mostly Muslims them selfs go unmentioned and are quietly being backed up by the begets of European leadership and its hateful population no peace will come.

I've repeatedly made clear that i do not support anybody who targets civilians, and particularly said that i do not support Hamas, and i view their leaders and the ones who carry out any attacks against civilians as criminals.

You can make any kind of claims you want you can tell me not all Muslims are like that, its not fare to generalize the entire population, call me a hater and racist but where are those Muslims who are different? where are their claims for a fare treatment of both parties? where are those people of the so called civilized countries? where are all those so called people of human rights? when will they take the streets to defend the people of other countries whose rights contently being threatened?

Didn't i make it clear i'm against targeting Israeli civilians? Why do i not support Hamas then?

Also, this goes both ways.

Where are those Muslims who take the streets against Israel to protest the treatment of Muslims in Arab countries?

Thats a good question. However its easier to get pumped up for a cause against a stronger invading country (thats the way we look at it), that is committing these things against Palestinians, than it is to do so against another middle easter Arab muslim country. Also propaganda has a role as well. And lastly, because conditions are not similar in both situations.

You only complain against Israel so to me all your actions are worth less then a penny, it is disgusting so save your claims for so called poor Palestinians for a kid in the first grade, you should be ashamed of your selfs.

Actually, one more time, i criticized both sides, i've made it clear that i do not support Hamas, while you probably support Israel. I have made it clear that i'm against targeting Israeli civilians.

On the other hand, i've yet to hear such things from you or anybody else who unconditionally supports Israel. You have not said that you're against the criminal behavior of Israel. You haven't shown any resentment for such actions against Palestinian civilians. And i have yet to hear a fair assessment from anybody who unconditionally supports Israel.

 

[Caladan]

Like i said earlier, it don't excuse unconditional support. I guess we view it differently. To me, nothing whatever it is justifies overlooking the bad side. Not saying that nobody should support Israel, but unconditional support is not something i can understand nor view as justified. There are people who support Israel, but they make it clear that they are completely against its actions towards Palestinians.

Many people have become conscious of what they view today as the threat of radical Islam or even Islam as a whole, they realize that Israel with a large public which strives to promote secularism and a western way of life has had a long experience of dealing with radical Islam and with terrorism.

Its always been that way Caladan. To blame Hamas for the actions of Israel is something i can not understand. While of course, not exempting them(Hamas that is). And i'm aware of the possibility that Hamas is using this for their advantage. I've made it clear i have no respect nor support for Hamas.

But once again nothing, absolutely nothing can be a justification for such killing of civilians.

The Israeli security services has this to deal with whenever they operate in the Palestinian territories:

[youtube]g0wJXf2nt4Y[/youtube]
YouTube - Hamas - Human Shield Confession

[youtube]J08GqXMr3YE[/youtube]
YouTube - Hamas using children as human shield

In light of this reality, any fighting force, no matter how well trained it is, cannot surgically remove only the terrorists which operate from within the civilian population, this only becoms more complicated since the Palestinians in the Gaza strip are living in the most densely populated urban area on the face of the world, and they have an extreme form of death and martydom industry.

You don't view killing children as criminal? While you've made it clear you're against that, but unconstructive just seems like a too practical way to put it and to look at it. That is not at all a fair assessment.

When civilian die as a result of the harsh circumstances of the conflict, like the videos above, who am I going to hold as criminal? I am willing to hold specific soldiers in specific cases as responsible when they violate the rules of engagement and take the law into their own hands.

Let me put it in different words. It is relevant, we should talk about it, but we shouldn't make it sound like its all happening today, some of it is, but not all.

Again I disagree, and I dont understand where you are coming from, its all relevant for me, and it practically happened 'yesterday', it is directly connected to what is happening today to the Palestinians in arab states. we should talk about it just like we talk about the 1948 refugees, and the 1967 borders when Israel is involved. if people really want to understand the Palestinian situation, they need to read and be informed about their misfortune by the hand of the Arab states today, during the 90's, the 80's and yes the 70's, because all these events are directly connected to what's happening today, for example the death of thousands of Palestinians in Lebanon during the mid 80s, is directly connected to the death of Palestinians in the late 2000's by Lebanese forces, they are also connected to the poor conditions forced on the Palestinians in Lebanon, likewise after hundreds of thousands of Palestinians have been expelled from Kuwait and the gulf states, Iraqis tried to do the same to the Palestinians only in recent years, also the Shia militants in Iraq have threatened the Palestinians to leave Iraq or face death, hundreds of Palestinians have been killed and tortured by Shiites in Iraq already in recent years.

Like how women are viewed(but not in all places, and not all on the same levels). Also too much people live their lives according to social "norms" and common expectations. Like how passive lots of people are. They are busy with the hardships in their lives.

Do you see new movements in your society to break this cycle of passivity?

You mean a different type of system to run the country?

perhaps. I mean, for as long as we can remember, Arab states have been under the control a few select leaders and elites, are there any alternatives for it in the future? are there significant movements that can challenge that?

 

[Badran]

Many people have become conscious of what they view today as the threat of radical Islam or even Islam as a whole, they realize that Israel with a large public which strives to promote secularism and a western way of life has had a long experience of dealing with radical Islam and with terrorism.

Yeah, and millions of people world wide have become conscious of what they (me included) view as the threat and a cause of severe damage and criminal acts, and terrorism, which is done by Israeli government and the US government in other people's countries. Which is more disturbing and dangerous.

Now, so what? Where does that lead us? What does that have to do with anything?

Does it justify civilian casualties on neither sides, hell no. Does it justify the destruction of life which some people endure, again hell no. Does it justify unconditional support for anybody who's involved in such activities, no. You can view it as you like, however i made it clear that i do not support any body who participates in such despicable things.

The Israeli security services has this to deal with whenever they operate in the Palestinian territories:

In light of this reality, any fighting force, no matter how well trained it is, cannot surgically remove only the terrorists which operate from within the civilian population, this only becoms more complicated since the Palestinians in the Gaza strip are living in the most densely populated urban area on the face of the world, and they have an extreme form of death and martydom industry.

When civilian die as a result of the harsh circumstances of the conflict, like the videos above, who am I going to hold as criminal? I am willing to hold specific soldiers in specific cases as responsible when they violate the rules of engagement and take the law into their own hands.

I'm sorry Caladan, but this is misleading. You keep pointing fingers and not willing to acknowledge much. To say that this is supposedly the main reason for the high number of civilian casualties is something i just can't believe you would say. It might play a role, but the Israeli approach to civilians is very clear to anybody who wants to look at it fairly.

Israeli soldiers have spoken out and flat out admitted that they were instructed to shoot first regardless. They were instructed (according to them) to shoot anybody and destroy any building entirely if it only even "appeared suspicious". The use of white phosphorous in such a densely populated area, the unbelievable amount of destruction of homes. This is pure and simple terrorism. Israel is making sure the Palestinians think twice before they mess with them, and they are doing so to civilians. And they too believe it or not have been using Palestinians as human shields. The Israeli government denies something and then later on comes back to admit it, all of this isn't criminal behavior in your eyes? Here is two articles from last year on Gaza, and two about white phosphorous usage.

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Israel soldiers speak out on Gaza
Israeli soldiers admit 'shoot first' policy in Gaza offensive | World news | guardian.co.uk
Amnesty International: Gaza white phosphorus shells were US made - Times Online
White phosphorus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Even the US government have condemned housing settlements. I don't understand your stance at all. To have ill-ease to simply saying that at least some of Israeli policies against Palestinians is criminal is something i can not understand.

Biden scolds Israel over settlement plan | Reuters
Israeli go-ahead for new settlement homes casts cloud over Biden visit | World news | The Guardian

And just to be fair. If there is something i'm misunderstanding, or missing. What do you think at least about the pictures of Israeli soldiers standing and laughing right next to a dead Palestinian citizen, or the picture of Israeli soldiers taking their own picture standing over a dead body? And videos where civilians get killed without any understandable reason whatsoever? I mean at least tell me that some things are criminal.

I'm not saying all soldiers are bad, or that all the actions by Israeli government are bad, or that Israeli citizens are bad, just to make it clear.

Again I disagree, and I dont understand where you are coming from, its all relevant for me, and it practically happened 'yesterday', it is directly connected to what is happening today to the Palestinians in arab states. we should talk about it just like we talk about the 1948 refugees, and the 1967 borders when Israel is involved. if people really want to understand the Palestinian situation, they need to read and be informed about their misfortune by the hand of the Arab states today, during the 90's, the 80's and yes the 70's, because all these events are directly connected to what's happening today, for example the death of thousands of Palestinians in Lebanon during the mid 80s, is directly connected to the death of Palestinians in the late 2000's by Lebanese forces, they are also connected to the poor conditions forced on the Palestinians in Lebanon, likewise after hundreds of thousands of Palestinians have been expelled from Kuwait and the gulf states, Iraqis tried to do the same to the Palestinians only in recent years, also the Shia militants in Iraq have threatened the Palestinians to leave Iraq or face death, hundreds of Palestinians have been killed and tortured by Shiites in Iraq already in recent years.

Let me say it again. All of it is relevant, all of it should be spoken about and addressed. Is this clear?

However, we should not present it as if thousands of Palestinians are being killed today in Arab countries. Or that even hundreds are being killed in Arab countries, and clarify which particular countries do so if they do, without generalizing and mixing that up with an indeed prevalent problem that takes place today such as poor status for refugees.

Do you see new movements in your society to break this cycle of passivity?

Yes, there is. Wether or not and when will the society change i don't know of course, but i think there is a new wave of different type of thinking.

perhaps. I mean, for as long as we can remember, Arab states have been under the control a few select leaders and elites, are there any alternatives for it in the future? are there significant movements that can challenge that?

Well, here in Egypt some changes are talking place. For example when it comes to elections of the president. There is a different approach and things that didn't happen before. I mean there is actually now a serious talk about other candidates.

 

[Caladan]

Yeah, and millions of people world wide have become conscious of what they (me included) view as the threat and a cause of severe damage and criminal acts, and terrorism, which is done by Israeli government and the US government in other people's countries. Which is more disturbing and dangerous.

Now, so what? Where does that lead us? What does that have to do with anything?

Does it justify civilian casualties on neither sides, hell no. Does it justify the destruction of life which some people endure, again hell no. Does it justify unconditional support for anybody who's involved in such activities, no. You can view it as you like, however i made it clear that i do not support any body who participates in such despicable things.

You may choose to support or not support anyone according to your own interests and world view, and other people are doing the same. what you deem despicable, they may define differently.

I'm sorry Caladan, but this is misleading. You keep pointing fingers and not willing to acknowledge much. To say that this is supposedly the main reason for the high number of civilian casualties is something i just can't believe you would say. It might play a role, but the Israeli approach to civilians is very clear to anybody who wants to look at it fairly.

The Palestinian death and martydom industry plays a huge role. and so does Israeli jingoism.

Israeli soldiers have spoken out and flat out admitted that they were instructed to shoot first regardless. They were instructed (according to them) to shoot anybody and destroy any building entirely if it only even "appeared suspicious". The use of white phosphorous in such a densely populated area, the unbelievable amount of destruction of homes. This is pure and simple terrorism.
Israel is making sure the Palestinians think twice before they mess with them, and they are doing so to civilians. And they too believe it or not have been using Palestinians as human shields. The Israeli government denies something and then later on comes back to admit it, all of this isn't criminal behavior in your eyes? Here is two articles from last year on Gaza, and two about white phosphorous usage.

I'm aware of these reports. and all of them should be studied by the Israeli public, the Israeli security services, and the Israeli government. the fact that many of these reports come from Israeli sources may very well be the catalyst to any reforms.

Even the US government have condemned housing settlements. I don't understand your stance at all. To have ill-ease to simply saying that at least some of Israeli policies against Palestinians is criminal is something i can not understand.

Biden scolds Israel over settlement plan | Reuters
Israeli go-ahead for new settlement homes casts cloud over Biden visit | World news | The Guardian

It seems that you are jumping to a new topic. lets focus on what we have here first.

And just to be fair. If there is something i'm misunderstanding, or missing. What do you think at least about the pictures of Israeli soldiers standing and laughing right next to a dead Palestinian citizen, or the picture of Israeli soldiers taking their own picture standing over a dead body? And videos where civilians get killed without any understandable reason whatsoever? I mean at least tell me that some things are criminal.

Do you excect me to know of each and every individual photo that's running on the net?

Let me say it again. All of it is relevant, all of it should be spoken about and addressed. Is this clear?

However, we should not present it as if thousands of Palestinians are being killed today in Arab countries. Or that even hundreds are being killed in Arab countries, and clarify which particular countries do so if they do, without generalizing and mixing that up with an indeed prevalent problem that takes place today such as poor status for refugees.

But Palestinians ARE being killed today in Arab states, in Egypt, Lebanon, Iraq. and you simply seem to be misinformed on the subject as you yourself have admitted.

"More than 600 Palestinians are believed to have died at the hands of Shia militias since the war began in 2003, including at least 300 from the Baladiat area of Baghdad. Many were tortured with electric drills before they died."

Source: Shias order Palestinians to leave Iraq or 'prepare to die' - Telegraph

furthermore what do you mean don't mix it with the poor refugee status of the Palestinians? this is another thing that should be studied, Palestinians are being forced to remain in refugee status by Arab states, in Lebanon the Palestinians are practically quarantined in refugee camps, in extremely poor conditions.

"Marginalized, deprived of basic political and economic rights, trapped in the camps, bereft of realistic prospects, heavily armed and standing atop multiple fault lines," a recent report by the International Crisis Group in Lebanon observed, "the refugee population constitutes a time bomb."
Today, Palestinian refugees in Lebanon are most at risk. In 2001, the estimated 250,000 Palestinians then in Lebanon were stripped by parliament of the right to own property or pass on property to their children - even as they are banned from working as doctors, lawyers, pharmacists or in 20 other major professions.
Along with this marginalization has come a new and frightening turn toward the radical Pan-Islamic ideology of Al Qaeda in refugee camps like Ain al-Hilweh, where more than 70,000 Palestinians live outside the legal framework of the state. One of the 9/11 hijackers dedicated a poem to Ain al-Hilweh's most prominent jihadist in his videotaped will, and dozens of Palestinian fighters from the camp joined Al Qaeda in Iraq. "

Source: http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2009/10/13/2009-10-13_arab_states_crimes_against_palestinians.html

Rami Khouri, a prominent Lebanese journalist, wrote in The Daily Star that "all Arab countries mistreat millions of Arab, Asian and African foreign guest workers, who often are treated little better than chattel or indentured laborers…The mistreatment, abysmal living conditions and limited work, social security and property rights of the Palestinians [in Lebanon] are a lingering moral black mark."

Source: http://www.hudson-ny.org/1422/palestinians-in-arab-world

Yes, there is. Wether or not and when will the society change i don't know of course, but i think there is a new wave of different type of thinking.

What can you tell me about it?

Well, here in Egypt some changes are talking place. For example when it comes to elections of the president. There is a different approach and things that didn't happen before. I mean there is actually now a serious talk about other candidates.

Can you provide me sources?