Why I support Israel...and why you should, too

[Rakhel]

The fact that the divided Palestinian political leadership is silent about the mistreatment of the refugees by Arab states does not make such behaviour any less reprehensible – or less dangerous. Some 250,000 Palestinians were chased out of Kuwait and other Gulf States to punish the Palestinian political leadership for supporting Saddam Hussein. Tens of thousands of Palestinian residents of Iraq were similarly dispossessed after the second Gulf war.

In 2001, Palestinians in Lebanon were stripped of the right to own property, or to pass on the property that they already owned to their children – and banned from working as doctors, lawyers, pharmacists or in 20 other professions. Even the Palestinian refugee community in Jordan, historically the most welcoming Arab state, has reason to feel insecure in the face of official threats to revoke their citizenship. The systematic refusal of Arab governments to grant basic human rights to Palestinians who are born and die in their countries – combined with periodic mass expulsions of entire Palestinian communities – recalls the treatment of Jews in medieval Europe. Along with dispossession and marginalisation has come a new and frightening turn away from the traditional forms of nationalism that once dominated the refugee camps towards the radical pan-Islamic ideology of al-Qa'ida.

No way home: The tragedy of the Palestinian diaspora - Middle East, World - The Independent

Col. Moammar Gadhafi's decision to expel 30,000 Palestinians from Libya has been greeted with dismay in the Middle East, where Arab countries have no intention of opening their doors to the would-be settlers.

Lebanon already has denied entry to several thousand Palestinians who arrived on two ships from Cyprus and Greece without Lebanese travel documents, and Friday it banned maritime transport from Libya in hopes of cutting off the flow of deportees. About 350 Palestinian from Libya with proper documents were allowed to enter.

Other Palestinians remained stranded at sea or at the Al-Saloum checkpoint on the Libyan-Egyptian border. Egypt has allowed Palestinians with Israeli permits for entry to Gaza or the West Bank to cross Egypt, under escort, to the Palestinian-ruled areas. Those without permits would be turned back by Israel, Egyptian officials said.

Gadhafi shocked the Arab world Sept. 1 when, speaking at a public rally to celebrate the 26th anniversary of the coup that brought him to power, he called on Arab governments to expel Palestinians and send them back to Gaza and to the West Bank as a means of punishing Israeli and Palestinian leaders for making peace. There are an estimated 4 million Palestinians living outside what was once Palestine.

Arab Countries Reluctant to Receive Expelled Palestinians - The Tech

The other side of the coin(I tried to find a site that wasn't Jewish owned but was stuck with Wiki)Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim lands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is estimated that 800,000 to 1,000,000 Jews were either forced from their homes or left the Arab countries from 1948 until the early 1970s; 260,000 reached Israel between 1948–1951, and 600,000 by 1972.[1][2][3] The Jews of Egypt and Libya were expelled while those of Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Lebanon and North Africa left as a result of physical and political insecurity. Almost all were forced to abandon their property.[2] By 2002, these Jews and their descendants constituted about 40% of Israel's population.[3] One of the main representative bodies of this group, the World Organization of Jews from Arab Countries, (WOJAC) estimates that Jewish property abandoned in Arab countries would be valued today at more than $300 billion[4][5] and Jewish-owned real-estate left behind in Arab lands at 100,000 square kilometers (four times the size of the state of Israel).[1][5] The organization asserts that a major cause of the Jewish exodus was a deliberate policy decision taken by the Arab League.[6]
Claims are made that Jews emigrated either because of the influence of Zionism or due to persecution by Arab countries;[7] however, as no surveys were taken at the time and as the one does not contradict the other it is not possible to effectively separate the two causes.
The Arab world consists of 22 countries in which Arabic is the main language. In those countries North of the Sahara a Jewish presence dates back to the Babylonian captivity in the 6th century BCE and, outside of Arabia, predates the Arab presence by a thousand years. The movement of Jews within the Arab countries took place before the 20th century as well, with an estimated 10% of Yemenite Jews migrating to Palestine between 1881 and 1914; however the scale of the exodus in the 20th century and the disappearance of these communities marked a significant change in both Jewish and Middle-Eastern history.

 

[Badran]

I dont consider Israel an invader, nor do I consider Israel to be more at fault than the Arab side.
I understand the problems of the Palestinians, I have spent long months in various Palestinian areas and have interacted with Palestinians on daily basis, however I think that the interaction between people like you and me, both living in the same reigon, can be improved, when we can elevate the discussion above putting the lion share of the blame on Israel, when you yourself admit that your media, press and authorities have not brought you more information of the plight of the Palestinians in Arab states.
The Palestinian issue is obviously a strong political card in the region, and at some point, we need to have a more sophisticated debate beyond traditionally treating Israel as an invader and the bigger problem in this conflict.

Is there exaggeration and much more emphasis on Israel/Palestine case over other problems facing muslims around the world, yes. Is it used by some of the Arab leaders, definitely. Does that mean Israel is not the main problem, i don't agree. You are undoubtedly entitled to your opinion, however its not about propaganda for me, what Israel did to Palestinians doesn't leave really much room to even consider how is it supposedly all sides share an equal amount of responsibility for what happened. Until this very day Israel continues to take more land and continues the cornering of Palestinians. But of course Arab leaders do have their share. And of course Hamas do have its share.

However, i completely agree that we should get past or at least handle the emotional stuff, and reach a better way to communicate, i don't mind that, and i highly appreciate you saying that. But that doesn't mean that all of a sudden i should or could ignore what happened and whats still happening and talk about the pluses of Israel's agriculture or the democratic system it enjoys and how beneficial that is to the region. That could come when at the very least the crimes stop and Palestinians are given certain things back. And to do so, i believe both sides Hamas and Israel government must be approached and kind of pressured into doing so. I can't talk about such things while these horrible things happening to Palestinians are still going on.

here are some studies of Palestinians in Egypt:

Full review of Unprotected: Palestinians in Egypt since 1948: Unprotected: Palestinians in Egypt since 1948

I didn't say there were no problems, i said there are somethings to be criticized. But a big part of that is because how poor the middle eastern countries are. I believe that is always cited as one of the main reasons for the poor conditions for refugees. These countries are in pretty rough shape.

However, its not my aim to deny these things, there are problems. But i hope you're not saying that these problems are supposedly to be compared with what happens to Palestinians in Israel. If thats your point, i can't see how you'd aim for that. But if your point is to shed light on problems facing Palestinians in Arab countries, then i have no problem with that, and i appreciate it too. These are important problems that needs addressing.

Perhaps because you are a religious man living in a Muslim nation. however to many people around the world, Israel is a natural default which they can identify with and find mutual ground and shared interests in an geographically important region and location.
for example, you are aware of the injustices commited by your own government, but you would still welcome international support or cooperation with others.
likewise, I would criticize some of the policies of Israeli decision makers, but I would welcome international support and cooperation, and I don't find the two mutually exclusive.

Yes there are huge corruptions in my country's government for example, and i think you know how Egyptians think of their government. But this is not the same Caladan.

I'm not trying to paint Israel as the devil, but the situation is not the same. And like i told you before, i don't think of only Israel like that.

 

[arimoff]

Rakhel Miamonides wasn't rewriting god's law. All Jews who follow the teachings of the sages know about the three strong oaths. Don't tell me you didn't know? You're the one who follows Judaism. Oy vey!

no reason to oy vey here, check your sources before posting something stupid as this. You are discusting for providing false information to back up your point!!!

 

[Rakhel]

What I was saying was that the oaths are not laws. The only ones who view them as legally bind are those who are afraid to go back home. Like those "True Torah Jews" you like to throw around here as being the only Jews worth listening to.

You do know they blame the Sephardim of Spain for the death of thousands of Polish Jews, right? That they fully believe The Protocols of the Elders was written about those same Sephardim and that everything written is true?

Monsey is not that far from where I live.

 

[FlyingTeaPot]

then you should file case against those historians and publishers like Harper Row Publishers, Barnes & Noble Inc, Encyclopedia Britannica etc. Really shameful to oppose these facts.

I welcome you to cite these sources as telling us that the Mughals started Sati in India.

 

[jml03]

Like have been said, supporting the troops and supporting the flag are two different things.

Also, why should i support the troops when i disapprove of what they are doing? How so? The troops are not by default heros nor are they always worthy of respect. Sometimes they are heros and sometimes they are criminals.

Also, like Luis, flags don't mean much to me neither personally.

You can disagree with the conflict at hand, which I do disagree with what my country's leaders are doing. However, to shun your brothers and sisters because they wear a uniform - wrong. My point was, why live somewhere that you will not support your country? MOVE. The worlds a pretty big place. NO, I don't agree with living somewhere and not saluting the flag. You can peddle your wares elsewhere.

However, I will salute my flag, regardless. I will say the Pledge of Allegiance, regardless. Why, because many were sacrificed for me to have the right to live here and say I disagree, but I love my country. If I didn't, I'd move - to Switzerland where I can be neutral and not take a stand on anything.

 

[jml03]

The fact no one is a little bothered by that is a little scary.

I suppose you failed to read the rest of it? Just like journalists, you get what you want out of a story and run with it. Was I saying that's the only reason they were intelligent? No. Honestly, I just wasn't going to go grab the book out and quote the names of intelligence authorities and cite references to miscellaneous operations they fulfilled. Pointless. That particular incident stuck in my head because they had the WHITE HOUSE bugged, the President's phone line hacked, Hello? That sounded like a pretty big deal to me.

 

[Caladan]

Is there exaggeration and much more emphasis on Israel/Palestine case over other problems facing muslims around the world, yes. Is it used by some of the Arab leaders, definitely. Does that mean Israel is not the main problem, i don't agree. You are undoubtedly entitled to your opinion, however its not about propaganda for me, what Israel did to Palestinians doesn't leave really much room to even consider how is it supposedly all sides share an equal amount of responsibility for what happened. Until this very day Israel continues to take more land and continues the cornering of Palestinians. But of course Arab leaders do have their share. And of course Hamas do have its share.

As long as people assume Israel needs to take the lion share of the responsibility, then the geopolitical situation is at a stalemate. Israel needs to work with others in order to negotiate. if the Arab states use the Palestinians as an internal and external political card against Israel while they themselves oppress, kill, expell, and discriminate the Palestinians then the situation for the Palestinians will only deteriorate. when Israel is expected to make the prime moves, while the regime in Gaza calls for the obliteration of Israel and is busy in suffocating Gazans instead of thinking of long term political solutions, then the situation for the Palestinians will keep on deteriorating, and when Palestinian factions fight each other while they should be working to secure a future state, then the same will happen.
there is plenty of very well written and very well investigated material about the problems of Israeli policies, many of which written by Israelis. however you'll be hard pressed finding even on this forum people who are informed on the situation and injustice the Palestinians face by other Arabs, by other Palestinians, and the dire state of regional politics because of the way governments around the Muslim world use the Palestinians as a political card. it has simply become hype in many sectors to dump the responsibility on Israel. I find some criticism of Israeli policies to be constructive and important, however I find those people who are hooked on this hype to be lousy users of some of the important criticism from within Israel and outside Israel.

However, i completely agree that we should get past or at least handle the emotional stuff, and reach a better way to communicate, i don't mind that, and i highly appreciate you saying that. But that doesn't mean that all of a sudden i should or could ignore what happened and whats still happening and talk about the pluses of Israel's agriculture or the democratic system it enjoys and how beneficial that is to the region. That could come when at the very least the crimes stop and Palestinians are given certain things back. And to do so, i believe both sides Hamas and Israel government must be approached and kind of pressured into doing so. I can't talk about such things while these horrible things happening to Palestinians are still going on.

I might partially understand your position. however people of other nationalities may disagree, they may find some of Israel's fields of expertise to be highly relevant for them, regardless of the conflict with the Palestinians.

I didn't say there were no problems, i said there are somethings to be criticized. But a big part of that is because how poor the middle eastern countries are. I believe that is always cited as one of the main reasons for the poor conditions for refugees. These countries are in pretty rough shape.

But what about other phenomena? what about the thousands of Palestinians who have been killed by other Arabs in Jordan, or in Lebanon? what about the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who have been expelled from Kuwait, Iraq, and the gulf states? what about the discrimination? should we excuse it because of poverty in Arab states?

However, its not my aim to deny these things, there are problems. But i hope you're not saying that these problems are supposedly to be compared with what happens to Palestinians in Israel. If thats your point, i can't see how you'd aim for that. But if your point is to shed light on problems facing Palestinians in Arab countries, then i have no problem with that, and i appreciate it too. These are important problems that needs addressing.

I'm not really comparing anything. one of my main points is to make people more informed about the complexity of middle eastern politics, about the way the Palestinian card is being used, and about the damaging double standards of Arab regimes.
as an Israeli, like most Israelis I support a future state for the Palestinians. but as long as there is misinformation, as long as the Palestinians are used by the Arab league as a means to ram Israel while other Arab states are pounding the Palestinians on the head at the same time, then I see more future obstacles in future negotiations, and I see more self interests from Arab governments and also more crocodile tears shed by them over the Palestinians.

 

[dust1n]

That particular incident stuck in my head because they had the WHITE HOUSE bugged, the President's phone line hacked, Hello? That sounded like a pretty big deal to me.

There fact no finds this of any concern whatsoever is a little bit scary.

 

[LuisDantas]

However, to shun your brothers and sisters because they wear a uniform - wrong.

I agree completely. I will even dare to say that so does Badran. His arguments leave me no doubt about that.

I believe you misunderstood what we meant with "not caring about flags".

My point was, why live somewhere that you will not support your country? MOVE. The worlds a pretty big place. NO, I don't agree with living somewhere and not saluting the flag. You can peddle your wares elsewhere.

But what is a country, and what does it really mean to support it? Are the teabaggers "not supporting" the USA? Are Democrats entitled to demand them to establish their our country?

Is demanding more troops to Afghanistan support, even if it turns out that the people who are entitled to decide believe or know that the consequences are not constructive?

Quite frankly, supporting a country while it is at war is a thorny proposition at best.

However, I will salute my flag, regardless. I will say the Pledge of Allegiance, regardless. Why, because many were sacrificed for me to have the right to live here and say I disagree, but I love my country. If I didn't, I'd move - to Switzerland where I can be neutral and not take a stand on anything.

That is taking Patriotism WAY too far, IMO. We must keep in mind that countries are very artificial constructs.

 

[Badran]

You can disagree with the conflict at hand, which I do disagree with what my country's leaders are doing.

I'm glad thats your position.

However, to shun your brothers and sisters because they wear a uniform - wrong.

I agree actually. Like Luis said, i think you misunderstood what i said. What i meant was, is that soldiers are not always doing whats right, and are not always doing things i support, or should support. Sometimes they are heros, and they put there life on the line for my sake, and they deserve my outmost respect and support. But also some other times, they are criminals. And not only will i not support them, but i will seek that they get punished for their crimes.

My point was, why live somewhere that you will not support your country? MOVE. The worlds a pretty big place. NO, I don't agree with living somewhere and not saluting the flag. You can peddle your wares elsewhere.

Peddle my wares? I'm sure you misunderstood me again, big time. Where did i say i don't support my country?

I guess you and me look at saluting the flag thing differently. It is a symbol correct? I don't care for that idea. That doesn't mean i don't care for my country.

However, I will salute my flag, regardless. I will say the Pledge of Allegiance, regardless. Why, because many were sacrificed for me to have the right to live here and say I disagree, but I love my country. If I didn't, I'd move - to Switzerland where I can be neutral and not take a stand on anything.

When you say allegiance and regardless, what do you mean?

To be honest on the surface, it doesn't sound very good to me, but i think i might be misunderstanding what you're saying.

 

[nameless]

I welcome you to cite these sources as telling us that the Mughals started Sati in India.

it is the mass sati, there were no incident of mass sati before the arrival of mughals.

Before the muslim army could enter the fort to rape and take captive the Hindu women as sex slaves, the Hindu women performed sati - a now uncommon Hindu practice of self immolation in a funeral pyre - to save their honour. This is the first recorded incident of Sati in mass numbers

references

1) The Great Moghuls, By B.Gascoigne, Harper Row Publishers, New York, 1972, p.15

2) Same as ref. 1, pp. 68-75

3) The Cambridge History of India, Vol. IV, Mughal India, ed. Lt. Col. Sir W.Haig, Sir R.Burn, S,Chand & Co., Delhi, 1963, pp. 71-73

4) The Builders of The Mogul Empire, By M.Prawdin, Barnes & Noble Inc, New York, 1965, pp. 127-28

5) Same as ref. 1, pp. 88-93

6) Same as ref. 3. pp. 97-99

7) Same as ref. 4, pp. 137-38

8) An Advanced History of India, by R.C.Majumdar, H.C.Raychoudhury, K.Datta, MacMillen & Co., London, 2nd Ed, 1965, pp. 448-450

9) Encyclopedia Britannica, 15 th Ed, Vol.21, 1967, p.65

10) Same as ref. 1, p. 85

the ditry mughal muslims *****, many muslims today are ashamed for their bloody ancestors.

 

[jml03]

I'm glad thats your position.



I agree actually. Like Luis said, i think you misunderstood what i said. What i meant was, is that soldiers are not always doing whats right, and are not always doing things i support, or should support. Sometimes they are heros, and they put there life on the line for my sake, and they deserve my outmost respect and support. But also some other times, they are criminals. And not only will i not support them, but i will seek that they get punished for their crimes.



Peddle my wares? I'm sure you misunderstood me again, big time. Where did i say i don't support my country?

I guess you and me look at saluting the flag thing differently. It is a symbol correct? I don't care for that idea. That doesn't mean i don't care for my country.



When you say allegiance and regardless, what do you mean?

To be honest on the surface, it doesn't sound very good to me, but i think i might be misunderstanding what you're saying.

What I mean is that I do not have to agree with everything the bureaucrats are doing. Their time in office will come and go. The good men and women that held those positions, regardless of how great their decisions were - they are forgotten. We tend to only remember the bad decisions made by those in power. When Roosevelt took a stand, and stood up for what was right in WWII, albeit a little late- that was something to be proud of. I'm sure there were lots to salute the flag, be patriotic, praise our troops, and recite their Pledge of Allegiance. That was good decision making. After Sept. 11th, Bush initially made good decisions, but then took a personal agenda - imo. However, some people may agree that Hussein should have been removed long ago for his horrible treatment of his people. But again, I don't feel like the people were his main issue of concern at the time. This current situation, with Democrats and Repubs alike, making poor choices at different times, everyone is quick to back up. It's still the same flag, it's still the same country, it's still the same soldiers only a new generation of them. Where did the Patriotism go?

Mainly, I was making reference to certain people who live in this country and appreciate all the benefits it can offer, yet refuse to do any of those things - ever.

 

[Badran]

it is the mass sati, there were no incident of mass sati before the arrival of mughals.

Before the muslim army could enter the fort to rape and take captive the Hindu women as sex slaves, the Hindu women performed sati - a now uncommon Hindu practice of self immolation in a funeral pyre - to save their honour. This is the first recorded incident of Sati in mass numbers

But doesn't this mean that this was supposedly the first mass sati, as in the first incident in which it is performed in mass numbers rather than the first time it is performed?

I'm asking because i think FlyingTeaPot's point was that sati was not started by muslims. I think this is what he asked.

 

[Badran]

What I mean is that I do not have to agree with everything the bureaucrats are doing. Their time in office will come and go. The good men and women that held those positions, regardless of how great their decisions were - they are forgotten. We tend to only remember the bad decisions made by those in power. When Roosevelt took a stand, and stood up for what was right in WWII, albeit a little late- that was something to be proud of. I'm sure there were lots to salute the flag, be patriotic, praise our troops, and recite their Pledge of Allegiance. That was good decision making. After Sept. 11th, Bush initially made good decisions, but then took a personal agenda - imo. However, some people may agree that Hussein should have been removed long ago for his horrible treatment of his people. But again, I don't feel like the people were his main issue of concern at the time. This current situation, with Democrats and Repubs alike, making poor choices at different times, everyone is quick to back up. It's still the same flag, it's still the same country, it's still the same soldiers only a new generation of them. Where did the Patriotism go?

Mainly, I was making reference to certain people who live in this country and appreciate all the benefits it can offer, yet refuse to do any of those things - ever.

I understand what you're saying.

 

[Badran]

As long as people assume Israel needs to take the lion share of the responsibility, then the geopolitical situation is at a stalemate. Israel needs to work with others in order to negotiate. if the Arab states use the Palestinians as an internal and external political card against Israel while they themselves oppress, kill, expell, and discriminate the Palestinians then the situation for the Palestinians will only deteriorate. when Israel is expected to make the prime moves, while the regime in Gaza calls for the obliteration of Israel and is busy in suffocating Gazans instead of thinking of long term political solutions, then the situation for the Palestinians will keep on deteriorating, and when Palestinian factions fight each other while they should be working to secure a future state, then the same will happen.
there is plenty of very well written and very well investigated material about the problems of Israeli policies, many of which written by Israelis. however you'll be hard pressed finding even on this forum people who are informed on the situation and injustice the Palestinians face by other Arabs, by other Palestinians, and the dire state of regional politics because of the way governments around the Muslim world use the Palestinians as a political card. it has simply become hype in many sectors to dump the responsibility on Israel. I find some criticism of Israeli policies to be constructive and important, however I find those people who are hooked on this hype to be lousy users of some of the important criticism from within Israel and outside Israel.

My view on who's at fault, doesn't mean i expect Israel to solve this thing on its own, i understand what you're saying. Like i said, i expect or want both Hamas and Israeli government to act towards this, and i criticize them both.

I might partially understand your position. however people of other nationalities may disagree, they may find some of Israel's fields of expertise to be highly relevant for them, regardless of the conflict with the Palestinians.

Well, they may see benefits in some things, but i can't see how can anyone overlook or not have huge problems with what Israel does to Palestinians.

But what about other phenomena? what about the thousands of Palestinians who have been killed by other Arabs in Jordan, or in Lebanon? what about the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who have been expelled from Kuwait, Iraq, and the gulf states? what about the discrimination? should we excuse it because of poverty in Arab states?

There is no killing today. You're talking about specific numbered incidents that happened in the past. These things don't happen today, unless i'm missing a huge thing. The only thing i'm aware of to be still happening is the poor status of refugees. However, i'm not saying we should excuse it, these are important things that needs addressing.

I'm not really comparing anything. one of my main points is to make people more informed about the complexity of middle eastern politics, about the way the Palestinian card is being used, and about the damaging double standards of Arab regimes.

Okay.

as an Israeli, like most Israelis I support a future state for the Palestinians. but as long as there is misinformation, as long as the Palestinians are used by the Arab league as a means to ram Israel while other Arab states are pounding the Palestinians on the head at the same time, then I see more future obstacles in future negotiations, and I see more self interests from Arab governments and also more crocodile tears shed by them over the Palestinians.

Can i ask what are examples of things you view as wrong or criticize about your government, and to what extent?

 

[Caladan]

Well, they may see benefits in some things, but i can't see how can anyone overlook or not have huge problems with what Israel does to Palestinians.

When people buy oil and gas from Muslim nations, they usually overlook much more disturbing things.

There is no killing today. You're talking about specific numbered incidents that happened in the past. These things don't happen today, unless i'm missing a huge thing. The only thing i'm aware of to be still happening is the poor status of refugees. However, i'm not saying we should excuse it, these are important things that needs addressing.

Here are news pieces from 2007:

"
The refugees have been under bombardment by the Lebanese army for over a week

"They were trying to flee from the coast next to the Nahr el-Bared camp," the official said. "They took advantage of a lull in the fighting Tuesday and tried to escape. There were no survivors."

...

More than 70 people have died already as the Lebanese army claims to have sunk a boat containing refugees heading for safety

The fighting which broke out Sunday have killed some 50 combatants and many civilians.
The army is currently tightening its grip around the north Lebanon camp, which lies on the coast next to the port city of Tripoli..

Lebanese army sinks boats of Palestinians fleeing from camp | Mail Online


"Aid agencies were desperately pleading for a ceasefire today as fierce battles engulfed a Palestinian refugee camp in north Lebanon for a second day, leaving scores dead."

Death toll nears 70 as Lebanese army pounds Palestinian camp | Mail Online

Also much of the killing in Jordan and Lebanon is not ancient history, we are talking about the 70s and the mid 80s. Kuwait expelled hundreds of thousands of Palestinians during the 90s, and in very recent years there are efforts to expel Palestinians from Iraq, the descrimination against the Palestinians is still happening today in Arab states, the laws against ownership, forbidding health care in Lebanon, etc. these are all things that are being dealt with in very recent years.

Can i ask what are examples of things you view as wrong or criticize about your government, and to what extent?

I think we are going to have to focus on that on another thread sometime, because there are things which are not going to be related to the thread.

 

[Badran]

When people buy oil and gas from Muslim nations, they usually overlook much more disturbing things.

I think you misunderstand my point. First, i didn't mean people shouldn't deal with Israel, i said i can't see how they can overlook the downside. As in those who do not object to the horrible things which are done. Second, not only do they not object, but some say we support Israel 100%, how? What about the Palestinians? How can anybody accept whats done by the Israeli government?

And what do you mean much more disturbing stuff? Very little can compete with what Israel do to Palestinians, are you referring to Iran for example? With all the horrible stuff that goes on there, i don't think they do much more disturbing stuff than Israel. And nobody overlooks these things, they are under constant criticism (the stuff that goes on in such countries i mean). I view the leaders of Iran as criminals, just like i view Israeli government as criminals, and they both needs to be punished.

Here are news pieces from 2007:

Death toll nears 70 as Lebanese army pounds Palestinian camp | Mail Online

Why did this happen? I mean whats the justification behind it? And why is it approached as if there is nothing wrong? And is there any other recent incident were Palestinians were killed by another Arab country? If there is how many?

Also much of the killing in Jordan and Lebanon is not ancient history, we are talking about the 70s and the mid 80s. Kuwait expelled hundreds of thousands of Palestinians during the 90s, and in very recent years there are efforts to expel Palestinians from Iraq, the descrimination against the Palestinians is still happening today in Arab states, the laws against ownership, forbidding health care in Lebanon, etc. these are all things that are being dealt with in very recent years.

I didn't say its ancient history, neither is my aim to simplify or ignore these important problems, and apparently some of the injustices Palestinians have seen in some Arab countries. My point is that aside from numbered incidents, the problem that face Palestinians in Arab countries today is the poor status they are in, which also i think varies from one country to another.

 

[Caladan]

I think you misunderstand my point. First, i didn't mean people shouldn't deal with Israel, i said i can't see how they can overlook the downside. As in those who do not object to the horrible things which are done. Second, not only do they not object, but some say we support Israel 100%, how? What about the Palestinians? How can anybody accept whats done by the Israeli government?

And what do you mean much more disturbing stuff? Very little can compete with what Israel do to Palestinians, are you referring to Iran for example? With all the horrible stuff that goes on there, i don't think they do much more disturbing stuff than Israel. And nobody overlooks these things, they are under constant criticism (the stuff that goes on in such countries i mean). I view the leaders of Iran as criminals, just like i view Israeli government as criminals, and they both needs to be punished.

I wholeheartedly disagree. the reason why people 'support' Israel or however we want to define it. is that the nations around Israel are highly dystopic. while Israel has introduced into the region issues of gender equality, LGBT rights, free elections, free press and diversity of opinions in the media, and other relevant issues in contermporary times, the nations around Israel continue to oppress women, homosexuals, maintain dictatorships, handicap the press and media in their nations.
while the population, citizenry, and the politicians in Israel debate the same issues which are debated in the rest of the developed world, such as same sex marriage (which is BTW recognized in Israel), there are nations around Israel who actively persecute homosexuals.
Does this mean that the problems of the Israeli-Palestinian issue should be downplayed? No, I dont believe that, that's not my point and that's not what many Israeli citizens and politicians believe either.

Why did this happen? I mean whats the justification behind it? And why is it approached as if there is nothing wrong? And is there any other recent incident were Palestinians were killed by another Arab country? If there is how many?

The sectarian fighting in Lebanon is nothing new, in the various inner conflicts inside Lebanon, thousands of Palestinians have been killed by Lebanese Shiites, and by Lebanese Christians.
Palestinians have also been killed by the Egyptian military in recent years on the border between the Gaza strip and Egypt. obviously the number of casualties at the moment between Egyptian forces and Palestinians is not as high as between the conflict between Israel and Hamas, for a myriad of obvious reasons.
likewise, thousands of Palestinians have been killed by other Palestinians, in the first intifadah, in the second intifadah, in the clashes between Fatah and Hamas and between other Palestinian factions.

I didn't say its ancient history, neither is my aim to simplify or ignore these important problems, and apparently some of the injustices Palestinians have seen in some Arab countries. My point is that aside from numbered incidents, the problem that face Palestinians in Arab countries today is the poor status they are in, which also i think varies from one country to another.

I dont see how we can claim the death of tens of thousands of Palestinians who were killed by other Arabs, the expulsion of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from Arab states, the systematic reality of preventing the Palestinians from citizenship for decades by the Arab steates, the discrimination in property, employment, health, the suffocation in refugee camps as numbered incidents. it it a harsh reality which has been on going for decades. and I do feel as if we are simplifying this, especially since it is such a critical element of the politics in the middle east, if the Palestinian issue is an intense element of focus, then lets give it the focus that it deserves and explore all dimensions of it.

 

[Badran]

I wholeheartedly disagree. the reason why people 'support' Israel or however we want to define it. is that the nations around Israel are highly dystopic. while Israel has introduced into the region issues of gender equality, LGBT rights, free elections, free press and diversity of opinions in the media, and other relevant issues in contermporary times, the nations around Israel continue to oppress women, homosexuals, maintain dictatorships, handicap the press and media in their nations.
while the population, citizenry, and the politicians in Israel debate the same issues which are debated in the rest of the developed world, such as same sex marriage (which is BTW recognized in Israel), there are nations around Israel who actively persecute homosexuals.

This doesn't make any sense. What does the pluses of the Israeli government, to its own citizens, has to do with supporting it wholeheartedly, disregarding its genocidal behavior against Palestinians.

You need to see the difference between opposing certain leaders or parties and individuals, and opposing the whole idea of Israel's leadership. In other words, those who have committed genocides against Palestinians, and the ones who killed children and the ones who continue to this very day to take more land, and inflict collective punishments on people, must be opposed and put in their place. However, that doesn't mean that Israel needs to be opposed whole heartedly. Nothing justifies overlooking the downside of the acts of the Israeli government. This thread proposes preposterous reasons to support Israel, and either overlooks the downside, or actually blame it on Palestinians, or Islam. You are not putting in mind what have been said in this thread while voicing your opinion, and not putting in mind whats proposed here.

Does this mean that the problems of the Israeli-Palestinian issue should be downplayed? No, I dont believe that, that's not my point and that's not what many Israeli citizens and politicians believe either.

Good to know.

The sectarian fighting in Lebanon is nothing new, in the various inner conflicts inside Lebanon, thousands of Palestinians have been killed by Lebanese Shiites, and by Lebanese Christians.

Lebanon is very unstable, and it has problems with Israel, and huge conflicts from within. Thats why my insistence on clarifying that this is not how it is in the rest of the Arab countries.

Palestinians have also been killed by the Egyptian military in recent years on the border between the Gaza strip and Egypt. obviously the number of casualties at the moment between Egyptian forces and Palestinians is not as high as between the conflict between Israel and Hamas, for a myriad of obvious reasons.

Don't you think its kind of misleading to even state the two in one sentence?

Egypt is not an enemy at all to Palestinians to start with, and as weak of a help as Egypt is, it still helps. There are incidents that occurred and conflicts but mainly with Hamas.

I dont see how we can claim the death of tens of thousands of Palestinians who were killed by other Arabs, the expulsion of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from Arab states, the systematic reality of preventing the Palestinians from citizenship for decades by the Arab steates, the discrimination in property, employment, health, the suffocation in refugee camps as numbered incidents. it it a harsh reality which has been on going for decades. and I do feel as if we are simplifying this, especially since it is such a critical element of the politics in the middle east, if the Palestinian issue is an intense element of focus, then lets give it the focus that it deserves and explore all dimensions of it.

Here is once again you present things in a strange way. The death of hundred of thousands of Palestinians and the expulsion of Palestinians are a couple of incidents that happened like more than thirty years ago. The poor conditions and discrimination against Palestinians is the thing that still goes on today.

Also, the thread mainly is supposed to be about reasons to support Israel. If we are going to explore all things, which i wouldn't mind, then we must also discuss what Israel does in details.