Why I support Israel...and why you should, too

[FlyingTeaPot]

Before India was invaded by the Muslims, it was one of the richest nations in the world. Hindu India was richer than the British Empire, while Muslims basically committed cultural and ethnic genocide against the Hindus and turned India into a poor country.

The Muslims killed nearly 400 million Hindus in the hundreds of years that they ruled India. And they continue to kill!

I'd like your source to that claim please. 400 million hindus killed by muslims? What about all the communal violence and hatred towards the muslims shown by the hindus even today?

And no, the muslims did not turn India into a poor country since they never ruled the whole of India. You see, India was not a country when they invaded. It was more like kingdoms scattered about fighting each other. In fact, the later muslim emperors kind of unified most of India.

P.S. I too am an Indian residing in the US. I too was a hindu and used to hate the muslims like you seem to do. Then I tried to see the other side of the story from the muslim's eyes. The underlying cause is religion. Get rid of religion and misplaced ideas of patriotism.

 

[Badran]

As always when it comes to Muslims, we don't know if such happened it has nothing to do with us, i wasn't there but when it comes to Israel or Jews they are pigs and monkeys they kill Muslims.

If you read my other posts in another thread, you'd see that i have very limited knowledge when it comes to history, and i've admitted that more than once. Thats why i'm not defending older muslims, and also because i know that with no doubt, some muslims must have committed their share of crimes, naturally.

As for jews, not once have i ever said they are pigs or monkeys, and i always differentiate between jews in general and jews who support Israel and the stuff it does. And those who do support Israel, are no worse in my eyes than americans who support whats done in Iraq, and muslims who support terrorists, and anybody who supports terrorism in general.

 

[LuisDantas]

Badran! How dare you be reasonable, you...

If everyone begins to emulate you we will end up having peace, or something. And we don't want that, do we?

Oh, wait. Never mind me.

 

[FlyingTeaPot]

The more worst is that the manner they treated non-muslim womens, the mughal soldiers used to forcefully take women the day they become widows, as slaves. So came the custom of 'sati' by which, women could jump into funeral fire of her husband to rescue herself from mughals. And still muslims today are proud of these mughals for they had spread islam in this manner, and still condemn actions of israel, which always makes me wonder.

What? Where did you get this ridiculous idea from? I don't know if you are being serious or not. Sati is a Hindu practice of burning the widow along with the funeral pyre of the husband so that they both arrive at heaven together.
It has absolutely nothing to do with the muslims or the mughal empire. In fact, the mughals tried to ban the practice of sati.

 

[Caladan]

As for jews, not once have i ever said they are pigs or monkeys, and i always differentiate between jews in general and jews who support Israel and the stuff it does. And those who do support Israel, are no worse in my eyes than americans who support whats done in Iraq, and muslims who support terrorists, and anybody who supports terrorism in general.

Do Egyptians support Egypt?

 

[FlyingTeaPot]

Those are pretty horrible stories nameless (if they really happened). However, i'm not proud at all by the conquest of older muslims to india and what they have supposedly done according to what little i know.

And once again that has pretty much nothing at all to do with Israel's case. Unless you're talking about people who criticize Israel for certain things, and commend muslims when they do these same things. Yes those would be hypocrites of course. Still, that doesn't come anyway near the topic of the thread, which is reasons to support Israel.

They didn't really happen. nameless pulled these stories right out of thin air. Stop sweating for your ancestors.

 

[Badran]

Badran! How dare you be reasonable, you...

If everyone begins to emulate you we will end up having peace, or something. And we don't want that, do we?

Oh, wait. Never mind me.

Thanks.

Do Egyptians support Egypt?

Naturally yes. But that doesn't mean we should support anything done by the Egyptian government, or that we do. And those who do, are just as bad as anybody else.

Also, the situation in Israel's case is much more complicated than that.

They didn't really happen. nameless pulled these stories right out of thin air. Stop sweating for your ancestors.

I hope so, cause those were some pretty horrible stories.

 

[Caladan]

Naturally yes. But that doesn't mean we should support anything done by the Egyptian government, or that we do. And those who do, are just as bad as anybody else.

Is it common for the Egyptian press and media to criticize Egyptian policies and the government?

Also, the situation in Israel's case is much more complicated that.

In what way is it more complicated?

 

[Badran]

Is it common for the Egyptian press and media to criticize Egyptian policies and the government?

Now it is, thankfully. Of course, we can't still criticize the president on TV for example, but we can criticize the government very much.

Also, there is a difference between whats on TV, and the public opinion. You yourself heard what some Egyptians had to say about our government and its policies and the president. And that is mainly what i'm talking about. The opinion of Israel citizens about whats done by their government, i wasn't referring to the media.

In what way is it more complicated?

The land issue, the war issue, the killings and the various types of injustices inflicted upon Palestinians by the Israel government.

 

[Caladan]

Now it is, thankfully. Of course, we can't still criticize the president on TV for example, but we can criticize the government very much.

Also, there is a difference between whats on TV, and the public opinion. You yourself heard what some Egyptians had to say about our government and its policies and the president. And that is mainly what i'm talking about. The opinion of Israel citizens about whats done by their government, i wasn't referring to the media.

Would you say, that Egyptians criticize the policies of their leadership as much as the Israeli press and media does Israeli policies?
further more should I ever expect more Muslims to be more sensitive when violence against Israelis by Palestinians takes place?

The land issue, the war issue, the killings and the various types of injustices inflicted upon Palestinians by the Israel government.

Would you say that Muslims are more passionate about Israeli policies towards the Palestinians than when Arab and other Muslim government inflict suffering on other Muslims or other ethnic groups, or when the Egyptian authorities inflict suffering on their citizens and on minorities?
after all these kind of activities are not alien to the middle east, and most if not all Arab regimes take part in oppression, when does the Israeli policies towards the Palestinian become more complicated?

 

[nameless]

I too was a hindu

im quoting these words in top to make clear how reliable your claims are. And now you are mulsim right?

What about all the communal violence and hatred towards the muslims shown by the hindus even today?

sources???

all those communal violonce was initiated by muslims ....
there never was any violence by hindu extremists where muslims are minority, all those happened in places where muslims population are either moderate or majority. Im not justifying hindu extremism, but Islam extremism is the root cause for all those incidents.


The recent incident you could find
Taliban law in South India
Attackers cut off Newman college prof Joseph's hand - Mathrubhumi English

The incident happened in kerala where muslims are moderate.

n they invaded. It was more like kingdoms scattered about fighting each other. In fact, the later muslim emperors kind of unified most of India.

Your statement is not complete, Mughals conquered the neighbouring kingdoms to spread islam by enforcing terror in people. Thus unified some kingdoms. And what about life of people belonging to those kingdoms once mughals unified them? the hindus lead a life worser than animals, even animals were not killed so brutally.

Then I tried to see the other side of the story from the muslim's eyes. The underlying cause is religion. Get rid of religion and misplaced ideas of patriotism.

Let me know what the other side is....

 

[Badran]

Would you say, that Egyptians criticize the policies of their leadership as much as the Israeli press and media does Israeli policies?
further more should I ever expect more Muslims to be more sensitive when violence against Israelis by Palestinians takes place?

I don't watch Israeli media often, but i guess its pretty likely they are more open in their criticism. Though, i honestly can't see how is this related to the topic.

As for Muslim's sensitivity for violence against Israelis by palestinians, thats a little complicated. First, there are of course already people (me included) who do not approve of attacking Israeli civilians, and i detest these actions when done against Israeli citizens. However, if you consider that Israel is the more powerful country, and that it have made the initiative, and that it has killed much more and done more crimes, it would be hard to gain sympathy of the average person who always here about those crimes committed against Palestinians.

Would you say that Muslims are more passionate about Israeli policies towards the Palestinians than when Arab and other Muslim government inflict suffering on other Muslims or other ethnic groups, or when the Egyptian authorities inflict suffering on their citizens and on minorities?
after all these kind of activities are not alien to the middle east, and most if not all Arab regimes take part in oppression, when does the Israeli policies towards the Palestinian become more complicated?

Are you referring to the hypocrisy of some, or the increased passion that comes to the Israel and Palestine Issue?

If you mean hypocrisy, like i said there are of course some like that. But for example what was done by Iraq to Kuwait is detested very much and is one of the main reasons Saddam had so many people who hate him. And i've seen that myself.

I'd appreciate it if you can shed more light at your aim, or what are we trying to come to, because i fail to see your particular point in regards to the topic.

 

[nameless]

They didn't really happen. nameless pulled these stories right out of thin air. Stop sweating for your ancestors.

really feeling proud for you,

its none but your ancestors who suffered rapes, killings and you proclaim those murderers and rapists to be great.

Akbar personally had more than 30 000 Hindus (polytheist idolator infidels according to islam) beheaded after the fall of Chitod. And erected a monument out of them to display as a sign of victory of islam against Hinduism.

Before the muslim army could enter the fort to rape and take captive the Hindu women as sex slaves, the Hindu women performed sati - a now uncommon Hindu practice of self immolation in a funeral pyre - to save their honour. This is the first recorded incident of Sati in mass numbers.

During the siege of Chitor the Rajput warriors heavily defended the fortress. When they were sure that the armies were close to destroying their fortress. They valiantly rode off to fight to their deaths.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/hinduism-dir/99457-first-recorded-incident-mass-sati-siege.html

 

[Badran]

nameless, how is this related to the topic?

I don't mean your last replies, but the issue of Hindus/muslims in general?

This thread is supposed to be giving reasons to support Israel.

 

[Caladan]

As for Muslim's sensitivity for violence against Israelis by palestinians, thats a little complicated. First, there are of course already people (me included) who do not approve of attacking Israeli civilians, and i detest these actions when done against Israeli citizens. However, if you consider that Israel is the more powerful country, and that it have made the initiative, and that it has killed much more and done more crimes, it would be hard to gain sympathy of the average person who always here about those crimes committed against Palestinians.

It's well established that Israel is the more powerful and therefore the Palestinians are the underdog, however there is a strong bias in saying Israel has made the intiative or that it has commited more crime, as it takes two to tango, and if the Palestinians are such a band of victims, I doubt they would have the luxury to attack Israeli civilians, Palestinian civilians, or have mini civil wars and infighting, obviously we should examine the Palestinian political and social structure and understand that if a political solution to the conflict is to be found, the people who eternally treat the Palestinians as the underdog must begin applying critical analysis on the Palestinians in order to solve some of the issues.

Are you referring to the hypocrisy of some, or the increased passion that comes to the Israel and Palestine Issue?

If you mean hypocrisy, like i said there are of course some like that. But for example what was done by Iraq to Kuwait is detested very much and is one of the main reasons Saddam had so many people who hate him. And i've seen that myself.

I'd appreciate it if you can shed more light at your aim, or what are we trying to come to, because i fail to see your particular point in regards to the topic.

I also know that despite his crimes against the Kurds and his people, Saddam was and still remains a very popular figure in the Arab world, in great part because he bombed Israeli civilians in the gulf war with Russian made missiles.
many people gets the feeling that the Muslim crowds are easily distracted by their leadership from the injustices commited by Arab regimes by the use of the Israeli-Palestinian card.
its as if Israeli policies are a magic formula to get the passionate side out of the same people who treat injustice by Arab regimes and political factions as business as usual.

 

[FlyingTeaPot]

im quoting these words in top to make clear how reliable your claims are. And now you are mulsim right?

Wrong again, bob. I'm an atheist.

sources???

all those communal violonce was initiated by muslims ....
there never was any violence by hindu extremists where muslims are minority, all those happened in places where muslims population are either moderate or decent. Im not justifying hindu extremism, but Islam extremism is the root cause for all those incidents.

1992 bombay riots, godhra train incident etc. Or how about operation polo, in which about 200,000 muslims were killed in religious pogroms? There has been less persecution of hindus by muslims after 1947 in India, seeing as muslims are a minority of 10 to 13% in India.

Your statement is not complete, Mughals conquered the neighbouring kingdoms to spread islam by enforcing terror in people. Thus unified some kingdoms. And what about life of people belonging to those kingdoms once mughals unified them? the hindus lead a life worser than animals, even animals were not killed so brutally.

again, India was not formed until 1947. What happened before that was mughals invaded religiously dissected lines between various small kingdoms.

Let me know what the other side is....

We must forget the past and learn to love our fellow Indians, be they muslims, hindus or christians. They are not responsible for what their ancestors did.

 

[Badran]

It's well established that Israel is the more powerful and therefore the Palestinians are the underdog, however there is a strong bias in saying Israel has made the intiative or that it has commited more crime, as it takes two to tango, and if the Palestinians are such a band of victims, I doubt they would have the luxury to attack Israeli civilians, Palestinian civilians, or have mini civil wars and infighting, obviously we should examine the Palestinian political and social structure and understand that if a political solution to the conflict is to be found, the people who eternally treat the Palestinians as the underdog must begin applying critical analysis on the Palestinians in order to solve some of the issues.

I agree that we should apply the same critical standards to both sides, if we are ever going to reach a positive conclusion. Thats why i don't support Hamas for example.

But i don't think its biased at all to say that Israel have committed more and made the initiative. Israel is the occupier, and it has inflicted a major damage on the Palestinian people. Also, although yes some palestinians have done crimes against Israeli citizens, there is no comparison in how much. And most of these crimes are done and have been done by groups, not the official government of Palestine.

I also know that despite his crimes against the Kurds and his people, Saddam was and still remains a very popular figure in the Arab world, in great part because he bombed Israeli civilians in the gulf war with Russian made missiles.
many people gets the feeling that the Muslim crowds are easily distracted by their leadership from the injustices commited by Arab regimes by the use of the Israeli-Palestinian card.
its as if Israeli policies are a magic formula to get the passionate side out of the same people who treat injustice by Arab regimes and political factions as business as usual.

Saddam having some people who support him, yes but also George Bush still have people who support him too. However, just like there are plenty of people who view George Bush horribly, there are people who view Saddam horribly too.

I agree however that the Israel/ Palestine conflict is used by some of the Arab leaders as a card to gain support and to distract at times.

 

[.lava]

nameless, how is this related to the topic?

I don't mean your last replies, but the issue of Hindus/muslims in general?

This thread is supposed to be giving reasons to support Israel.

i guess, basically relation is like this:
"i hate Islam and all Muslims therefor i support Israel"

.

 

[FlyingTeaPot]

really feeling proud for you,

its none but your ancestors who suffered rapes, killings and you proclaim those murderers and rapists to be great.

Akbar personally had more than 30 000 Hindus (polytheist idolator infidels according to islam) beheaded after the fall of Chitod. And erected a monument out of them to display as a sign of victory of islam against Hinduism.

Before the muslim army could enter the fort to rape and take captive the Hindu women as sex slaves, the Hindu women performed sati - a now uncommon Hindu practice of self immolation in a funeral pyre - to save their honour. This is the first recorded incident of Sati in mass numbers.

During the siege of Chitor the Rajput warriors heavily defended the fortress. When they were sure that the armies were close to destroying their fortress. They valiantly rode off to fight to their deaths.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/hinduism-dir/99457-first-recorded-incident-mass-sati-siege.html

Woha! Hold your horses. You claimed that Sati came about as a result of mughal conquest of india. That is absolutely false. Your post makes it seem like the Mughals started the practice of Sati in India. Please try to be more intellectually honest in the future.

Oh and before you feel all proud about the valiant rajputs, please know that they dragged their wives and children from horses while dressed as Mughals to escape the invading army.

 

[FlyingTeaPot]

Anyhoo, I don't see how Hindu-Muslim relations have anything to do with this thread. So imma ignore nameless unless he has something pertinent to say.