Why I support Israel...and why you should, too

[idea]

I've been to Israel - there is a stark constrast between the Jewish quarters and the the rest of it... being a tourist, it was hot, I wore shorts - not short shorts, knee length shorts - but that was tooo immodest for some people....

clash of two worlds... one that was very modern / free... another that was not.

 

[LuisDantas]

from what I've heard, it all started with a fight between two brothers over a bowl of soup...

How many of the people who suffered and are still suffering at that region do so out of belief in that ancient myth? Few if any, I sincerely hope.

Another honest question. How important to you think the role of the Jacob / Esau myth is in the current conflicts? I mean, as opposed to more current concerns such as expansionist policies, social and economical pressures and religious rivalries?

 

[idea]

How many of the people who suffered and are still suffering at that region do so out of belief in that ancient myth? Few if any, I sincerely hope.

Another honest question. How important to you think the role of the Jacob / Esau myth is in the current conflicts? I mean, as opposed to more current concerns such as expansionist policies, social and economical pressures and religious rivalries?

well, it's a religious conflict, and the difference in religions started with a bowl of soup... or so it seems.

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Which group wants to see the eradication of the other? The Palestinians that are actually in control there want to wipe Israel off the map. And many in the Arab-Muslim world also would like to see Israelis and Jews in general cease to exist. But you don't see Jews wanting to wipe Palestinians from the planet.

 

[LuisDantas]

It is not purely religious, and frankly, I don't think it is very respectful to either religion to suggest that they value ancient myths that far and that blindly anyway.

So, what about a numeric estimate? What percentage of the conflict would you assign to the beliefs associated with that tale about Esau and Jacob?

 

[idea]

It is not purely religious, and frankly, I don't think it is very respectful to either religion to suggest that they value ancient myths that far and that blindly anyway.

So, what about a numeric estimate? What percentage of the conflict would you assign to the beliefs associated with that tale about Esau and Jacob?

what percentage of Muslims believe the Koran to be the word of God?

(Old Testament | Genesis13:14 - 15)
14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:
15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.



the son that the blessing went to is the family line that Israel was supposed to go to...

from what I've heard, it all started with a fight between two brothers over a bowl of soup...

(Old Testament | Genesis25:30 - 34)
30 And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red pottage; for I am faint: therefore was his name called Edom.
31 And Jacob said, Sell me this day thy birthright.
32 And Esau said, Behold, I am at the point to die: and what profit shall this birthright do to me?
33 And Jacob said, Swear to me this day; and he sware unto him: and he sold his birthright unto Jacob.
34 Then Jacob gave Esau bread and pottage of lentiles; and he did eat and drink, and rose up, and went his way: thus Esau despised his birthright.


The Muslims are came from Esau, and the Jews came from Jacob.... correct me if I am wrong, but I think the Koran starts out the same as the Bible - up until this point. In the Koran, Esau does not despise his birthright, does not sell his soul for pottage.

you want to be the one to tell the Muslims "I don't think you value your ancient
myth that much" ... or you could say the same thing to the Jewish people..


the land has sentimental value - to both people.

Israel is so small - I remember standing on a little hill - look one direction, and I could see the mediterranean Sea... look the other way, I would see the little border/guard building... you can literally see from one side of the country to the other. It's city blocks that are being fought over - city blocks! surrounded by all this land, but everyone wants Israel.

The reason they want Israel is written in their scriptures.
The whole thing is over a bowl of soup.

you either go with the Koran version...
or with the Jewish version...
or with the Christian version:

He will lift up an ensign and they shall come, Isa. 5:26.
With great mercies will I gather thee, Isa. 54:7.
Israel and Judah are to be gathered to their lands, Jer. 30:3.
The Lord shall gather the house of Israel from the people among whom they are scattered, Ezek. 28:25.
In the dispensation of the fulness of times he will gather in one all things... Eph. 1:10.

Christianity has prophecies stating that the Jewish people would be scattered after Jesus died (which happened) but that they will then be gathered back to their home lands. 1948 was the fulfillment of ancient prophecies for the Christians too.

this is from a JW offset group
http://biblestudents.com/Israel.cfm
explains the prophecies.

basically, whoever ends up with Israel proves that their religion / prophecies were right, and the other religion's prophecies were wrong.

Jewish people get Israel = Christianity and Judaism are correct.
Muslims get it = the Koran is right.

 

[LuisDantas]

I believe that you are over-rating both Jewish and Muslim interest in that region, Idea.

Sure, there are those who adopt such extreme and literalist interpretations of their scriptures. But they are far more notable for their noise than for their number.

 

[LuisDantas]

Which group wants to see the eradication of the other? The Palestinians that are actually in control there want to wipe Israel off the map. And many in the Arab-Muslim world also would like to see Israelis and Jews in general cease to exist. But you don't see Jews wanting to wipe Palestinians from the planet.

That is a dangerous, biased and naive, over-simplification of the situation. At the very least, it needs to refer to a clear definition of what "wiping out" would be for both sides, and to defer to the reality that there are indeed armed Jews (more properly, Israeli) wanting to "wipe out" at least specific groups of Palestinians. Sure, they claim to do so out of a need for self-defense or to contain terrorism, but still.

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi Luis,

That is a dangerous, biased and naive, over-simplification of the situation. At the very least, it needs to refer to a clear definition of what "wiping out" would be for both sides, and to defer to the reality that there are indeed armed Jews (more properly, Israeli) wanting to "wipe out" at least specific groups of Palestinians. Sure, they claim to do so out of a need for self-defense or to contain terrorism, but still.

What is your evidence that Israelis want to commit a genocide of Palestinians? There isn't any or at least any of Israelis in power. But Palestinians have a Hamas, the main political arm of the Palestinain people, which is dedicated to eliminating the state of Israel. Hezbollah, the terrorist group supported by Iran and Syrai aids the Palestinian war on Israel and its main political goal is to annihilate the Jewish state.

 

[LuisDantas]

I didn't claim genocidal intent from Israel. Quite frankly, I'm undecided on the matter, and therefore feel honor-bound to give it the benefit of the doubt.

What I meant was that the Israeli goverment and military make no secret and have no hesitation with their intent of summarily kiling anyone that shows even a slight chance of being "terrorists", to the extent of pushing for aggressive, unprovoked actions to be internationally recognized as "defense efforts".

That, by definition, is "wiping out" specific groups. And it is not conductive to peace, as per the arguments that we have been exchanging in the other thread. Peace is not a result of wiping out the opposition.

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi Luis,

What I meant was that the Israeli goverment and military make no secret and have no hesitation with their intent of summarily kiling anyone that shows even a slight chance of being "terrorists", to the extent of pushing for aggressive, unprovoked actions to be internationally recognized as "defense efforts".

Quite the contrary, many of the battles between the Israeli armed forces and Palestinian terrorists are house to house combat. It would be much easier to drop bombs on these areas (because they have civilians and of course this is the reason Palestinian terrorists stay there because some civilians may die and they use this as a propoganda opportunity) and 'wipe out' the whole lot of them by the Israelis don't.

I love how you claim you don't believe Israel is genocidal and them basically claim their military acts in a genocidal way.

 

[LuisDantas]

I love how you claim you don't believe Israel is genocidal and them basically claim their military acts in a genocidal way.

Oh, they do act genocidal alright. I'm not sure whether that is their intent, or if they just don't care enough to avoid it.

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi Luis,

Oh, they do act genocidal alright. I'm not sure whether that is their intent, or if they just don't care enough to avoid it.

Thanks for the clarification. Israel is genocidal and nary a peep about Hamas and Hezbollah. Interesting.

 

[LuisDantas]

Hamas and Hezbollah aren't governments. They don't have recognized armies, nor do they receive the kind of political support that Israel has. Heck, they don't even have a true territory.

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi Luis,

Hamas and Hezbollah aren't governments. They don't have recognized armies, nor do they receive the kind of political support that Israel has. Heck, they don't even have a true territory.

And therefore their murderous activities escape your moral scrutiny why?

 

[Ordeet]

[youtube]dmV1ffKP0ms[/youtube]
YouTube - Joyce Kaufman. The 7 Reasons to Support Israel.

A very beautiful, impassioned video that all should watch. And I agree, because as a Hindu, I am also the victim of Islam. And as an American, I wholeheartedly support Israel.

Some say that the real purpose of Holocaust Denial is "to make National Socialism an acceptable political alternative again". The real purpose of anti-Zionism is also anti-Semitism.

Watch the video to learn more!

JAI HIND! AM ISRAEL CHAI!

 

[Kerr]

I don´t support Israel, never will. But when I say that I don´t mean Israel doesn´t have the right to exist, but rather that I don´t like what they do. I don´t like what the "other side" is doing as well. Just appears to be a huge spiral of blood with no end in sight and I wish they would just... stop and try to get along.

 

[sandandfoam]

I don't feel the need to 'support Israel'
People everywhere are entitled to live without the threat or the reality of violence and I support that.

 

[dmgdnooc]

Ordeet, a book that you would be interested in is Sir Martin Gilbert's Atlas of the Arab-Israeli Conflict.
It contains, for me, the most compelling reason for the existence of the state of Israel, regardless of what Ms Kaufman has said.
　
The zionist movement for nearly 100 years prior to the declaration of the state in 1948 had been buying title to the land from its absentee Turkish owners.
They paid good hard cash for the land that was ceded to their control in 1948.
　
It was not a gift from the British Partition authority, it was not stolen from the Palestinians, it was paid for and title legally passed to the Jews who bought it.
The UN resolution gave nothing more than the right of self-determination to the owners of the land; the right to live in freedom on the land that that had paid for.
The 1948 borders merely recognised the current land settlement and ownership facts on the ground (with a few swaps, both ways, factored in).
　
It was the wars initiated by the combined Arab nations that caused those borders to change.
　

 

[LuisDantas]

And therefore their murderous activities escape your moral scrutiny why?

I resent the insinuation. I'm no condoner of terrorism, mister.

It just happens that I'm not naive about the effectiveness (or moral sense) of military, either. For that matter, I'm not that naive about what terrorism is, either.