Why is Confidence in Organized Religion At All Time Low?

[George-ananda]

And I think that would be a marvelous thing!!

I agree but only to an extent. Many people are benefitted too by being members of a religious community and having fellowship with like-minded believers. It gives many a social structure that benefits them. I don't want to see organized religion go away completely.

 

[LASTINGLIGHT]

About whether or not Jesus was literate -

Luke 4:17 - "And there was handed to Him [the roll of] the book of the prophet Isaiah. He opened (unrolled) the book and found the place where it was written,"

John 8:7-8 - "And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.” And once more he bent down and wrote on the ground." (Although not in the earlier manuscripts apparently)

What Jesus read in the scroll was from the Greek Septuagint not the Hebrew text. If Jesus could read or write, it was in Greek not Hebrew or Aramaic.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You made reference to their respective texts, and I am unaware of any texts ascribed to Jesus of Nazareth. If you are referring to the New Testament, I am unaware that there are any books or collection of letters in it that were written by anyone who ever met Jesus.

How would the son of god be illiterate?

 

[LuisDantas]

How would the son of god be illiterate?

The same way he would be vulnerable to humanly-inflicted wounds, perhaps.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The same way he would be vulnerable to humanly-inflicted wounds, perhaps.

That is typical for such stories when a god takes a human incarnation. However, given that Jesus strongly resembles a shaman, and shamans are typically highly literate in their culture and their people's ways, it doesn't seem like a very strong case to assume Jesus would have been illiterate.

 

[leibowde84]

I agree but only to an extent. Many people are benefitted too by being members of a religious community and having fellowship with like-minded believers. It gives many a social structure that benefits them. I don't want to see organized religion go away completely.

Many groups achieve this without supernatural beliefs and theology. Maybe our reliance on organized religion has blinded us to how possible and easy it is to achieve community solidarity when religion isn't a barrier. For a long time in history, I can see how it might be seen to have been necessary, but now, with more recent developments, I feel like it is fueling the fire a bit too much.

 

[George-ananda]

Many groups achieve this without supernatural beliefs and theology.

But many (including myself) believe the supernatural is real and why not incorporate those beliefs into our lives. And this is best discussed between like-minded people.

Maybe our reliance on organized religion has blinded us to how possible and easy it is to achieve community solidarity when religion isn't a barrier.

But there is more value and solidarity found by many with people of like religious views.

For a long time in history, I can see how it might be seen to have been necessary, but now, with more recent developments, I feel like it is fueling the fire a bit too much.

What fire is it fueling? Good religion teaches brotherly love for others. I am not for throwing the baby (religion) out with the bathwater (bad religious thinking).

 

[JoStories]

Good Afternoon again Shadow Wolf: Speculation as to the literacy of Jesus and the Apostles is generally based on what is known about the times and cultures they lived in, coupled with the writings we have available. for instance, among the Jews of Jesus' time, literacy was mostly the craft of the priest class. A handyman such as Jesus would not have known how to read or write, and probably no one in the small village of a few hundred people that he came from could. As to the issue regarding whether or not these men existed, it is the consensus of most historians that they did in fact exist, and there are non-religious attestations to this, such as the writings of Josephus in the case of Jesus of Nazareth. Now, the question as to whether one of them was God and the other was a Prophet, well, that's where things start to get a little shaky with regard proof. I deal in probabilities. The former is highly probable and the latter is highly improbable. I am familiar with theories that Jesus of Nazareth was a purely fictional character, and one account of how he was a code name among Jewish trippers for psychedelic mushrooms, but this is probably quackery. He probably existed. He probably was not a permutation of the God of Abraham in human form.

As for how it can be approached that the Apostles couldn't read or write, the accounts of their backgrounds would place them (with the exception of Matthew) in the illiterate class. Access to books took money and privilege. Lots of it. None of these men had money. They had a very minimal existence.

You made reference to their respective texts, and I am unaware of any texts ascribed to Jesus of Nazareth. If you are referring to the New Testament, I am unaware that there are any books or collection of letters in it that were written by anyone who ever met Jesus. The Letters of Peter are thought to have been written on his behalf. Most of the New Testament is the work of Paul of Tarsus, who never met Jesus, his follower Luke, who never met Jesus, the authors of Matthew, Mark and John are not thought to have known Jesus. They are works written in the traditions of Matthew, Mark and John, which was a common literary device of the time. What New Testament author knew Jesus, and what part of the New Testament did Jesus write?


All the best,
Gary

A well spoken post. In particular, your assertion that Jesus would not have been able to read or write owing to that he allegedly was a carpenter..blue collar workers would not have been taught that in that time frame. This is something I have been asserting several times of late and most scoff and tell me my PhD is laughable. I do thank you for this post.

 

[JoStories]

About whether or not Jesus was literate -

Luke 4:17 - "And there was handed to Him [the roll of] the book of the prophet Isaiah. He opened (unrolled) the book and found the place where it was written,"

John 8:7-8 - "And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.” And once more he bent down and wrote on the ground." (Although not in the earlier manuscripts apparently)

One cannot use the Bible to prove anything of substance. I respect that you believe this proves Jesus could read but the truth is there is little evidence of that fact.

 

[Thana]

One cannot use the Bible to prove anything of substance. I respect that you believe this proves Jesus could read but the truth is there is little evidence of that fact.

The bible is the only evidence of that fact.
There is no other source that I know of.

And I was just throwing it out there. It's evidence that He was literate but, obviously, it's not proof.

 

[Gary Sheldrake]

A well spoken post. In particular, your assertion that Jesus would not have been able to read or write owing to that he allegedly was a carpenter..blue collar workers would not have been taught that in that time frame. This is something I have been asserting several times of late and most scoff and tell me my PhD is laughable. I do thank you for this post.

You won't find trouble finding sources to back you up on that. To prove your point, I would suggest that you spend some time studying the world of the Jews at the time rather than writings about Jesus. The former reveal a lot and the latter is so loaded with bias that you have to move around it. A lot is known about that culture, more than any other in history. For instance, the gospel accounts of the boy Jesus discussing scripture in the temple is a gospel fabrication and leads to conclusions that are impossible. Readers have to remember that the gospel writers were not Jews, didn't know Jesus, and didn't know the culture Jesus came from to the level of detail that would be needed to make historically accurate accounts. Jesus showing up in the temple to discuss scripture with scholars was as likely as you and I showing up at the State Department and having a discussion with the Secretary of State. Then, as now, it's a matter of access and privilege.

I think your argument will work out just fine.

All the best,
Gary

 

[Gary Sheldrake]

How would the son of god be illiterate?

Good Morning Shadow Wolf. Why would the son of God wait for over 100,000 years of human existence, wherein people had a 40% chance of surviving childbirth, then a 30 percent chance of living to age ten , and then if they were lucky they might live to the age of 25 or 30 on average in a world beset with volcanoes, predators, earthquakes, famines, diseases, predators and countless miseries, only to decide 98 thousand years into it that it was time to make an appearance. And then, the appearance would be made to one group of illiterate people in the Middle East, and bypassing much more evolved civilizations that were capable of recording His appearance, and just as much in need of some help. The same way the Son of God would be illiterate I suppose. One makes sense if you buy into the other.

All the best,
Gary

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

But many (including myself) believe the supernatural is real and why not incorporate those beliefs into our lives. And this is best discussed between like-minded people.

Something just occurs to me: usually, when like-minded people get together, the things that bring them together are a matter of shared values or aesthetic preferences. It seems very strange - and potentially dangerous - to base a group on a shared opinion of (hopefully) objective facts.

I mean, it makes sense that people who think some pursuit is especially important would get together to engage in that pursuit... but a group of people who get together to agree about some factual matter has a real danger of turning into a self-reinforcing echo chamber that's divorced from the truth.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I sincerely hope that one day an advanced/updated "human race" can look back on the time during which organized religion had its heyday and call all of it a "dark time".

 

[leibowde84]

I sincerely hope that one day an advanced/updated "human race" can look back on the time during which organized religion had its heyday and call all of it a "dark time".

"The Era of Know-Nothing-Know-It-Alls" ... or something like that, maybe.

 

[JoStories]

You won't find trouble finding sources to back you up on that. To prove your point, I would suggest that you spend some time studying the world of the Jews at the time rather than writings about Jesus. The former reveal a lot and the latter is so loaded with bias that you have to move around it. A lot is known about that culture, more than any other in history. For instance, the gospel accounts of the boy Jesus discussing scripture in the temple is a gospel fabrication and leads to conclusions that are impossible. Readers have to remember that the gospel writers were not Jews, didn't know Jesus, and didn't know the culture Jesus came from to the level of detail that would be needed to make historically accurate accounts. Jesus showing up in the temple to discuss scripture with scholars was as likely as you and I showing up at the State Department and having a discussion with the Secretary of State. Then, as now, it's a matter of access and privilege.

I think your argument will work out just fine.

All the best,
Gary

I realize you don't know me yet but I have a PhD in theology Mr. Sheldrake so I'm aware of the Jews at that time frame. It is not that my argument is flawed sir, it is that stalwart Christians don't like being told they are wrong about certain things. But I do thank you for your well intentions.

 

[JoStories]

"The Era of Know-Nothing-Know-It-Alls" ... or something like that, maybe.

Damn it Leibowde. I just spewed coffee all over my laptop screen. You should warn a person, ya know??
Kiss kiss darling.

 

[LuisDantas]

Anyone willing to offer what they see as existing or being done in place of religion?

 

[leibowde84]

Anyone willing to offer what they see as existing or being done in place of religion?

Empathy, community organizing, charity, philosophy, etc.

 

[LuisDantas]

Empathy, community organizing, charity, philosophy, etc.

I thought religion was meant to develop and encourage those?