Why is god identified as a "he"???

[lilithu]

You do have to remember that women did not have as many rights back then. So it would have probably been easier to have a male messiah than a female one.

Or it would have been easier for a male to become the messiah.

 

[athanasius]

Also interesting!

I like this view, although I don't particularly share it. Is the neutrality of God in this view a combination of Male and Female aspects, then? If so, then how does this view of God being both genders relate to intersexed, or transgendered individuals?

Also, is this typical of the Catholic view, or is this a personal view? (You don't have to answer the last question if you don't wish to. Just curious!)

As far as Know this is Catholic teaching. A book that may describe some element of it is called "First comes love, finding your family in the Trinity and Church" by Scripture scholar and Catholic theolgian Dr Scott Hahn.

 

[Quiddity]

As far as Know this is Catholic teaching. A book that may describe some element of it is called "First comes love, finding your family in the Trinity and Church" by Scripture scholar and Catholic theolgian Dr Scott Hahn.

*nods*...yup that's my understanding as well.

That's why pushing for either "maleness" or "femaleness" will always be opposed by the Church. They misunderstand (sadly even some liberal catholic apologist do as well) what God is trying to do.

 

[sojourner]

Or it would have been easier for a male to become the messiah.

In that culture, it would only have been possible for a male to become the messiah.

 

[lilithu]

That's why pushing for either "maleness" or "femaleness" will always be opposed by the Church. They misunderstand (sadly even some liberal catholic apologist do as well) what God is trying to do.

I don't see how you can call God "Father" and "Son" and even say the the Holy Spirit is a "he" and then say that the Church is opposed to genderizing. When feminist theologians argue for a feminine aspect of God, they are doing so in reaction to the male dominance that pervades the Christian religion.

 

[Quiddity]

I don't see how you can call God "Father" and "Son" and even say the the Holy Spirit is a "he" and then say that the Church is opposed to genderizing. When feminist theologians argue for a feminine aspect of God, they are doing so in reaction to the male dominance that pervades the Christian religion.

And I diagree with that approach. Is pushing feminism the only way to do it? :no:
Just as I would disagree with a bunch of males trying to minimize Mary or saying that the Church is male. Both of which are very feminine. The idea is to leave it as is because God is trying to show the beauty in both. So, although I agree with you about the "male dominance", I disagree that pushing feminism is the way to go.

 

[lilithu]

And I diagree with that approach. Is pushing feminism the only way to do it? :no:
Just as I would disagree with a bunch of males trying to minimize Mary or saying that the Church is male. Both of which are very femanine. The idea is to leave it as is because God is trying to show the beauty in both. So, although I agree with you about the "male dominance", I disagree that pushing feminism is the way to go.

I'm not sure what you mean by "pushing feminism." For me, feminism is the idea that women are EQUAL to men. And Christian feminist theology is not trying to say that God is female, they're saying that the Church has been dominated by men and because of this does not have a full view.

You can only "leave it as is" if you believe that God's will is being faithfully discerned. I realize that I am not Catholic, so my opinion doesn't matter, but I know of MANY Catholic women who do not feel that God's will is being faithfully discerned.

I understand that in Catholic belief, the Church leadership is believed to be led by the Holy Spirit, and therefore what the Church leadership decides is the will of God. Do you really think that the Pope and the college of Cardinals, all men, can really see things from a woman's point of view? Even if they are led by the Spirit, isn't it possible that there are some things they cannot hear by virtue of their limited perspectives? (I am not saying that women have greater perspectives, I'm saying they're different.) So how can it be that a bunch of men to make decisions that affect primarily women?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I don't think you should need to say HE or SHE. Jut say God

You can not identify God too often. God is God.
With God the personal pronoun is unnecessary.

 

[Quiddity]

I'm not sure what you mean by "pushing feminism." For me, feminism is the idea that women are EQUAL to men. And Christian feminist theology is not trying to say that God is female, they're saying that the Church has been dominated by men and because of this does not have a full view.

You can only "leave it as is" if you believe that God's will is being faithfully discerned. I realize that I am not Catholic, so my opinion doesn't matter, but I know of MANY Catholic women who do not feel that God's will is being faithfully discerned.

Ok, this can be worked out and I hope it does from within the walls of my Church, but in my experience (both in the real world and online) feminism doesn’t take its form in what you described above; it has a tendency of taking it further and ascribing feminist qualities in certain areas of our theology. Some even go as far as claiming dominance and belittling maleness. I realize the latter is probably a select few, but the former is more accurate to what I mostly see. They usually don’t say “hey you men have too much power”, but rather “hey, you men have too much power and we want some of it.” This is prevalent not just in Catholicism but in Protestantism and perhaps society as a whole.

I understand that in Catholic belief, the Church leadership is believed to be led by the Holy Spirit, and therefore what the Church leadership decides is the will of God. Do you really think that the Pope and the college of Cardinals, all men, can really see things from a woman's point of view?

No..nor can they completely see it from a man’s point of view. What they proclaim is from a non-gendered God to humanity. So what they proclaim will express the Oneness of it.

Even if they are led by the Spirit, isn't it possible that there are some things they cannot hear by virtue of their limited perspectives?

It’s possible, but I think this is where many people misunderstand how it works. History will show you that in many (most) instances, popes/bishops/priests involved in decision making received overwhelming solicitation from laymen (people just like me, which included many women) urging them to make the declarations. It was anything but a solely top-down act of arbitrary power. I really think many people fail to see this.

So how can it be that a bunch of men to make decisions that affect primarily women?

I hope I answered your question above.

 

[JayHawes]

This is a Pointless argument. It matters not whether one calls God a he or she, the only motive for this topic is of feminist origins, and feminism is not a source of "new" revelation concerning God, it has no biblical basis. The Jews for thousands of years have understood God as being a Father "O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting" Isaiah 63:16. For a people to refer to God as being a Father it seems applicable that The Father should also be referred to as a He. No Father should be called she...


To eleborate any further has no meaning, it's only the result of wanting to retranslate the bible due to feminism.

P.S. Remember that Jesus called God, his FATHER.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Main Entry: 1shim
Pronunciation: 'shim
Function: noun
Etymology: origin unknown
: a thin often tapered piece of material (as wood, metal, or stone) used to fill in space between things (as for support, leveling, or adjustment of fit)

Regards,
Scott

It might mean that - but have you ever heard of making words up and having some fun! If I said the word mean for instance - there are three meanings to that all with the same spelling!

 

[Quiddity]

This is a Pointless argument.

Maybe to you.

 

[lilithu]

They usually don’t say “hey you men have too much power”, but rather “hey, you men have too much power and we want some of it.”

What is wrong with that? What would be the better alternative?

No..nor can they completely see it from a man’s point of view. What they proclaim is from a non-gendered God to humanity. So what they proclaim will express the Oneness of it.

So they claim, and perhaps even believe. There's nothing to show that it's true other than they say it's so. I hold with the liberation theologians, of which the feminists are but a subset, that say that NO ONE is without bias. Those in charge just often do not see their own biases.

I hope I answered your question above.

Not really, but I also don't think it's matter of answering a question. It's a difference in views, and we'll just have to leave it at that. :flower:

 

[lilithu]

This is a Pointless argument. It matters not whether one calls God a he or she, the only motive for this topic is of feminist origins,

Um... you mean the desire for equality?

and feminism is not a source of "new" revelation concerning God, it has no biblical basis.

Feminism comes from the human experience. Since *I* believe that the bible was written by humans in response to their encounter with and inspiration from the Divine, I think that human experience does indeed have validity. The thing is that the bible was written by men. That's why the feminist view has no biblical basis. But that's a circular justification.

Easy for you to say " But that's the way we've always done it for thousands of years." Would you be saying the same thing if the situation were reversed?

 

[athanasius]

I'm not sure what you mean by "pushing feminism." For me, feminism is the idea that women are EQUAL to men. And Christian feminist theology is not trying to say that God is female, they're saying that the Church has been dominated by men and because of this does not have a full view.

You can only "leave it as is" if you believe that God's will is being faithfully discerned. I realize that I am not Catholic, so my opinion doesn't matter, but I know of MANY Catholic women who do not feel that God's will is being faithfully discerned.

I understand that in Catholic belief, the Church leadership is believed to be led by the Holy Spirit, and therefore what the Church leadership decides is the will of God. Do you really think that the Pope and the college of Cardinals, all men, can really see things from a woman's point of view? Even if they are led by the Spirit, isn't it possible that there are some things they cannot hear by virtue of their limited perspectives? (I am not saying that women have greater perspectives, I'm saying they're different.) So how can it be that a bunch of men to make decisions that affect primarily women?

I think your over doing this. We Call God by male gender names because Jesus is a "male", and he told us to call God our "Father". The Holy Spirit is referred in scripture as "he" etc. its as simple as that! we just follow Gods Holy word. Catholic s have a Mother figure in Mary(Rev 12). As a matter of fact we are the only chrisitan church who establishes such a high honor for women in general as we see Mary(a women) as a fullfillment of Eve and the pristine ark of the covenant, such as to render to her extreme veneration(Hyperdulia). She is the exulted Queen of heaven. We have nuns who are doctors of the faith(St Catherine of Sienna I believe is one of them) and many female saints tha twe look up too and ask for prayers. Mary holds a place to Christians that no other mere human person Male or female Can touch. Secondly yes if God wants to teach truth he can and will do it through either men or women. But he chose to do it in the magisterial way through men. Apparitions of the Virgin Mary herslef acknolwedge this.

 

[Quiddity]

What is wrong with that? What would be the better alternative?

To suppress it where it's not intended and water it where it's needed. You see, the difference between us isn't that you think women and men should be equal, but that you think every position and role should be made available equally to both. In regards to value I completely agree they are equal, but in regards to positions and roles I do not. I am perfectly content with women being better then me at X. I accept and embrace it.

So they claim, and perhaps even believe. There's nothing to show that it's true other than they say it's so. I hold with the liberation theologians, of which the feminists are but a subset, that say that NO ONE is without bias. Those in charge just often do not see their own biases.

It cuts both ways lilithu. Don't think for a second the libertaion theologians are somehow immune to it.

Not really, but I also don't think it's matter of answering a question. It's a difference in views, and we'll just have to leave it at that. :flower:

Alrighty...

Peace be with you,
~Victor

 

[lilithu]

To suppress it where it's not intended and water it where it's needed. You see, the difference between us isn't that you think women and men should be equal, but that you think every position and role should be made available equally to both. In regards to value I completely agree they are equal, but in regards to positions and roles I do not. I am perfectly content with women being better then me at X. I accept and embrace it.

No, I don't think that everything should be entirely the same, because we're not the same. But I do think that as long as the power is held and the decisions are made by only one group, then they cannot say for everyone what is best for everyone.

It cuts both ways lilithu. Don't think for a second the libertaion theologians are somehow immune to it.

Absolutely, and the best liberation theologians recognize that. That's why the solution isn't to lift up women (for example) while putting down men. If it were only women who got to hold power and make decisions, we would have the same problem in reverse. The point is to have all views recognized and represented.

 

[Quiddity]

No, I don't think that everything should be entirely the same, because we're not the same. But I do think that as long as the power is held and the decisions are made by only one group, then they cannot say for everyone what is best for everyone.

We'll have to agree to disagree. The message could come from the mouth of a mule and it could be for everyone. As I would feel the same if the priesthood was entirely composed of women.

Absolutely, and the best liberation theologians recognize that. That's why the solution isn't to lift up women (for example) while putting down men. If it were only women who got to hold power and make decisions, we would have the same problem in reverse. The point is to have all views recognized and represented.

And I believe that is already being done. One doesn't have to be in a position of power in the Church of God to cause things to happen. (Mary, Mother Teresa, etc.)

 

[Random]

Once one gets the bitter pill of Patriarchal revisionism out of mind and heart, and accepts that whereas once GOD was uniformly referred to as "She" or "Divine Mother" or "Great Goddess", we are now stuck with the perfunctory "HE" without which it would be impossible to talk about GOD @ all in respectful terms. Deal with it, I guess, is the only way.

 

[Quiddity]

Once one gets the bitter pill of Patriarchal revisionism out of mind and heart, and accepts that whereas once GOD was uniformly referred to as "She" or "Divine Mother" or "Great Goddess", we are now stuck with the perfunctory "HE" without which it would be impossible to talk about GOD @ all in respectful terms. Deal with it, I guess, is the only way.

What can we say? But to point the fact that Christendom refered to God as "He". Outside of that, it's open to a perspective region.