Why is it necessary to believe?

[Willamena]

Ideally, for a moment.

Each moment. *nod*

*makes a circle with her finger*

 

[nonbeliever_92]

So you are saying that you believe that like love, god is a purely mental concept and that he is only "real" as an idea and not as an actual physical entity?

Aren't ideas real ideas?

Ideas themesleves are real in the sense that they are concepts, but until an idea is brought to fruition as physical representations, they are neither physical or tangible.

How is an idea or concept not a physical entity?

The "love" and "god" comparison is a good one, since both are concepts that describe something wholly indescribable and yet so powerful. But in the end, what is the difference between the experience of love and the experience of a rock? Both are multiple sensory experiences modeled into a single concept.

So you are saying that you believe that like love, god is a purely mental concept and that he is only "real" as an idea and not as an actual physical entity?

Aren't ideas real ideas?

Ideas themesleves are real in the sense that they are concepts, but until an idea is brought to fruition as physical representations, they are neither physical or tangible.

How is an idea or concept not a physical entity?

I did not intend on starting this argument about reality when I posted this the topic, but if I must...

Not just believe, but put your whole being in believing.

And not just God, but any symbol for something beyond the mundane.

And not just Heaven, but the reconciliation of the conscious being and his awareness of death.

Existential issues are not contained within a single philosophical school, but are human-wide. Religion is a way of dealing with being conscious of ourselves as alive in an indifferent world and eventually dead. By believing in something above life and death, we reach the heaven of peace with our own non-existence.

In this post I interpreted you saying that God is no more than a mental concept, an idea of sorts, so that one may be comforted in life. A mental concept is unreal in the snese that it cannot be measured or observed. You cannot measure or observe an idea until it is brought into fruition. It is neither physical nor tangible in that sense. An idea may be real to you, but unless it can be physically represented it is not truly and universally real. The thought that you could run a filament through a glass dome and charge it with electricity until it glows white hot is an idea. Until someone actually proves that this idea can be used to invent a lightbulb, it is not truly real.

The "love" and "god" comparison is a good one, since both are concepts that describe something wholly indescribable and yet so powerful. But in the end, what is the difference between the experience of love and the experience of a rock? Both are multiple sensory experiences modeled into a single concept.[/quote]


Comparing love to god is an unreasonable statement if you assert that god is real. Love is a not a physical thing to be measured, it is a mental and concept, in fact, love is not a constant. Your belief of what love is could be synonymous to someone else's view of what hate is and vice versa. Someone who loves their children so much that they would kill them would be contradictory to me. I've always felt that if you loved someone or something you wouldn't harm it in anyway. Furthermore, between my views of what love is and someone else's views of love, there would be maybe a million interpretetations of others as to what love is.

If you equate god to love than you are ultimately saying that god and love are both non-physicla aspects of the mind. the distinction between god and love is that you admit that love is an internal concept, yet you say that god is not and is an external reality.

I've no problem with someone saying that god is a mental aspect, but when you assert that he is real you must also lead valid evidence to support your claim.

 

[logician]

I don't believe, so I'm covered.

 

[whereismynotecard]

Hell couldn't be worse than the english class I took last semester. So even if I am sent there by god, I'm sure I'll manage. I pulled off an A in the english class. I bet I could master life in Hell as well. Plus, I hear Satan really likes those who don't believe in god, and he'll probably be nice to us for it.

 

[logician]

Hell couldn't be worse than the english class I took last semester. So even if I am sent there by god, I'm sure I'll manage. I pulled off an A in the english class. I bet I could master life in Hell as well. Plus, I hear Satan really likes those who don't believe in god, and he'll probably be nice to us for it.

Don't worry, only those that believe there is a hell, can go there. It's all based upon belief.

 

[Willamena]

Don't worry, only those that believe there is a hell, can go there. It's all based upon belief.

The Hell Law says that Hell is reserved exclusively
for them that believe in it. Further,
the lowest Rung in Hell is reserved for them
that believe in it on the supposition that
they'll go there if they don't.
HBT; The Gospel According to Fred, 3:1

 

[Carico]

Many religions claim that in order for you to ascend to heaven or whatever sacred paradise beyond the living world, you must believe and follow the word of god/allah/zeus/etc...

I just have a few questions.


1.) If someone lives in some remote part of the world and has never, ever heard of god or Jesus or any religion for that matter but lives their life with reverance for others and good morals, does that mean that that person would go to hell when they die? Wouldn't that be unnecessary? Unneeded?

2.) Wouldn't that god/supreme being(s) be cruel and unreasonable if they did this? Wouldn't that god be thought of as incredibly wrong to deal out eternal punishment just because you simply don't believe in him?

3.) Why is it imperative that we believe what god and his holy scriptures say? Why can't we just live a good life, live a moral life? Why won't god accept us if we're athiests yet we didn't kill, steal, rape, etc...?

Yes, they will go to hell. It's no different than someone who breaks a law in a state or country where he doesn't know the laws. In most cases his punishment will be less severe since he didn't know the laws. But he will still have to pay the penalty. But that's why we Christians witness.

God's forgiveness can do no one any good if he doesn't believe he's forgiven any more than loving someone can do him any good if he doesn't believe it. He will die feeling unloved. So one's belief is the most important part of salvation.

 

[Riverwolf]

Many religions claim that in order for you to ascend to heaven or whatever sacred paradise beyond the living world, you must believe and follow the word of god/allah/zeus/etc...

I just have a few questions.


1.) If someone lives in some remote part of the world and has never, ever heard of god or Jesus or any religion for that matter but lives their life with reverance for others and good morals, does that mean that that person would go to hell when they die? Wouldn't that be unnecessary? Unneeded?

Define "good morals." The definition of "good morals" changes from culture to culture and age to age.

2.) Wouldn't that god/supreme being(s) be cruel and unreasonable if they did this? Wouldn't that god be thought of as incredibly wrong to deal out eternal punishment just because you simply don't believe in him?

Yup. Which is why this isn't the case, as some believe.

3.) Why is it imperative that we believe what god and his holy scriptures say? Why can't we just live a good life, live a moral life? Why won't god accept us if we're athiests yet we didn't kill, steal, rape, etc...?

You won't find God if you don't reach out for him. And if you don't, you won't suffer for eternity. I don't know what will happen to you.

Scripture (from all cultures) tell us how to find God, from the perspectives of various cultures and various Sages.

If your wish is not to find God, that's okay. There are other Paths in life.

 

[Riverwolf]

Ideas themesleves are real in the sense that they are concepts, but until an idea is brought to fruition as physical representations, they are neither physical or tangible.

And God is the ultimate of abstract concepts.

Nevertheless, "The Lord is the Supreme Reality." (Isho Upanishad 1:1)

 

[nonbeliever_92]

Define "good morals." The definition of "good morals" changes from culture to culture and age to age.

Good morals as defined by the scriptures and sacred texts of any organized religion when the religion originally began. (i.e. "thou shalt not kill," or stone a son who disobeys his father, in the bible etc...)

Yup. Which is why this isn't the case, as some believe.



You won't find God if you don't reach out for him. And if you don't, you won't suffer for eternity. I don't know what will happen to you.

Scripture (from all cultures) tell us how to find God, from the perspectives of various cultures and various Sages.

If your wish is not to find God, that's okay. There are other Paths in life.

And God is the ultimate of abstract concepts.

Nevertheless, "The Lord is the Supreme Reality." (Isho Upanishad 1:1)

Which was my point exactly, if you assert that god is an abstract concept, you are asserting that he is an existance that is only in our minds, and is not external in anyway.

And it's (Isha Upanishad 1:1) not Isho.

 

[logician]

Yes, they will go to hell. It's no different than someone who breaks a law in a state or country where he doesn't know the laws. In most cases his punishment will be less severe since he didn't know the laws. But he will still have to pay the penalty. But that's why we Christians witness.

God's forgiveness can do no one any good if he doesn't believe he's forgiven any more than loving someone can do him any good if he doesn't believe it. He will die feeling unloved. So one's belief is the most important part of salvation.

So by this theory, we're all bound by, and will suffer the consequences of disbelief of, any and all religious beliefs we've never even heard of.

I'd better pack my bags for the multiple hells I'm bound for.

 

[nonbeliever_92]

So by this theory, we're all bound by, and will suffer the consequences of disbelief of, any and all religious beliefs we've never even heard of.

I'd better pack my bags for the multiple hells I'm bound for.

Hell Tour 2009! Woo Hoo!

 

[Willamena]

Which was my point exactly, if you assert that god is an abstract concept, you are asserting that he is an existance that is only in our minds, and is not external in anyway.

Unless, of course, our minds are real.

 

[nonbeliever_92]

Unless, of course, our minds are real.

I don't understand. Please clarify.

 

[Willamena]

I don't understand. Please clarify.

If there is no "in here" of our minds, but what we think is a part of all that is "out there," then the god that is an abstract concept is "out there", not "in here".

 

[Kilgore Trout]

If there is no "in here" of our minds, but what we think is a part of all that is "out there," then the god that is an abstract concept is "out there", not "in here".

You need to lay off the mushrooms.

 

[Riverwolf]

Which was my point exactly, if you assert that god is an abstract concept, you are asserting that he is an existance that is only in our minds, and is not external in anyway.

And it's (Isha Upanishad 1:1) not Isho.

Woops, my mistake. ^_^

Think of it this way: human beings aren't a single organism, but a collection of millions of tiny organisms.

In a sense, We are God. (Before any connections are drawn, this concept is VERY different from the Hive mind. So resistance is hardly futile. )

I believe Carl Sagan said it wonderfully: "We are the Universe trying to understand itself."

 

[nonbeliever_92]

Woops, my mistake. ^_^

Think of it this way: human beings aren't a single organism, but a collection of millions of tiny organisms.

In a sense, We are God. (Before any connections are drawn, this concept is VERY different from the Hive mind. So resistance is hardly futile. )

I believe Carl Sagan said it wonderfully: "We are the Universe trying to understand itself."

i'm still not understanding what it is you are trying to say. Are you saying that god is or is not the supernatural creator of everything? please define to me what it is that you believe.

 

[Riverwolf]

i'm still not understanding what it is you are trying to say. Are you saying that god is or is not the supernatural creator of everything? please define to me what it is that you believe.

God is Eternal.
God is the Fashioner, Maintainer, and Demolisher.
God fashions from the demolished.
God is Existence.
Existence is an Eternal Cycle of Birth, Life, and Death.
Death is the Parent of Birth.

With me so far?

 

[nonbeliever_92]

God is Eternal.
God is the Fashioner, Maintainer, and Demolisher.
God fashions from the demolished.
God is Existence.
Existence is an Eternal Cycle of Birth, Life, and Death.
Death is the Parent of Birth.

With me so far?

No, are you saying that god is a being or a force?