Why is pornography bad?

[Storm]

Why do you think a sexually healthy economically secure person would flip burgers at Micky d`s?

You`re seriously stacking the deck in this discussion by adding that economically secure.

It`s disingenuous and very transparent.

Nobody who was economically secure would need to do anything they found disagreeable.
Millions of people do things they find disagreeable every day in order to gain economic security.

Try again.

Isn't the other side of this argument that some people DON'T find it disagreeable?

Seriously, I thought that was his (her?) whole point. If you disagree, please put the argument into your own words.

 

[linwood]

Isn't the other side of this argument that some people DON'T find it disagreeable?

I believe so.

Seriously, I thought that was his (her?) whole point. If you disagree, please put the argument into your own words.

Your perception of the argument is correct.
I don`t understand your confusion.

You state that "sex work" is a direct result of some past sexual trauma.
Quite honestly regardless of any past trauma "sex work" is a direct result of economic needs just as any and all work is a direct result of economic needs.

Your addition of "economic security" into this argument seems to me to be an attempt to narrow the argument into the limited range with which you feel you can adequately defend your point.

I`m merely pointing out that your injection of "economic security" into this debate has no bearing on the subject at hand when one considers it is the main and indeed almost always the only reason for any employment in our culture.

To get back on track, you believe all "sex work" is a result of some sexual trauma in the sex workers past.

Yes?

 

[Storm]

I believe so.

Your perception of the argument is correct.
I don`t understand your confusion.

You state that "sex work" is a direct result of some past sexual trauma.
Quite honestly regardless of any past trauma "sex work" is a direct result of economic needs just as any and all work is a direct result of economic needs.

Your addition of "economic security" into this argument seems to me to be an attempt to narrow the argument into the limited range with which you feel you can adequately defend your point.

Let's break it down. The OP was speaking of sex work, specifically pornography, freely chosen with no form of coersion. Can we agree that exploiting economic vulnerability is a form of coersion?

I`m merely pointing out that your injection of "economic security" into this debate has no bearing on the subject at hand when one considers it is the main and indeed almost always the only reason for any employment in our culture.

I included it because I consider it a weak point with great potential for exploitation. IOW, exactly the kind of motive the op was attempting to avoid.

I can see how an otherwise-healthy person would be so desperate to survive that they'd resort to sex work, but I certainly don't consider that a free choice. Do you disagree?

To get back on track, you believe all "sex work" is a result of some sexual trauma in the sex workers past.

Yes?

Well.... again, it's my kneejerk reaction. I try to avoid expressing it with any sort of authority or certainty. So, while that is my stance, you're lending it a bit more weight than I'm comfortable with.

 

[linwood]

Let's break it down. The OP was speaking of sex work, specifically pornography, freely chosen with no form of coersion. Can we agree that exploiting economic vulnerability is a form of coersion?

Certainly.

I included it because I consider it a weak point with great potential for exploitation. IOW, exactly the kind of motive the op was attempting to avoid.

The OP has no need to "avoid" it.
The point is moot when one considers "all work" is a means to the end of "economic security".
Meaning, "All work" is bad if one holds that point of view.
Do you believe all work is bad?

I can see how an otherwise-healthy person would be so desperate to survive that they'd resort to sex work, but I certainly don't consider that a free choice. Do you disagree?

Yes.
You`re projecting.
You`re making the unsubstantiated assumption that sex work is extraordinarily disagreeable to anyone and everyone.
This is simply not the case.

Well.... again, it's my kneejerk reaction. I try to avoid expressing it with any sort of authority or certainty. So, while that is my stance, you're lending it a bit more weight than I'm comfortable with.

I don`t believe I`m the one who weighted in that manner.

 

[Storm]

Certainly.

The OP has no need to "avoid" it.

That's as may be, but a desire to do so was expressed:

Assuming that those who participate in porn do so willingly, [emphasis added]

In my book, "I'll do this because I'll starve if I don't" does not constitute "willingly." I was just following the parameters of the OP.

The point is moot when one considers "all work" is a means to the end of "economic security".
Meaning, "All work" is bad if one holds that point of view.
Do you believe all work is bad?

If that's the absolute only motive for doing something that completely repulses you, to the point of leaving people with psychological dysfunctions like drug addiction? Yeah, that's always bad.

Yes.
You`re projecting.

I know that part, I've said it several times. That doesn't necessarily mean that I'm wrong.

You`re making the unsubstantiated assumption that sex work is extraordinarily disagreeable to anyone and everyone.

... who is otherwise sexually healthy. It's an important distinction.

This is simply not the case.

As I've said, in about 20 years of reading/ discussing the matter, I can recall ONE woman who claimed to do what she did because she enjoyed it.

Again, I know that I have the reaction I do due to my own issues; you don't need to tell me. But what if my instincts are correct?

Do you mean to tell me you'd approve of your child/ sibling/ spouse becoming a sex worker?

I don`t believe I`m the one who weighted in that manner.

I've expressed a lack of certainty several times. Who's projecting now?

 

[linwood]

In my book, "I'll do this because I'll starve if I don't" does not constitute "willingly." I was just following the parameters of the OP.

For the third or maybe fourth time The vast majority of people do some type of work that I`m willing to bet they`d rather not have to do for economic reasons.
Your argument is not an argument against sex work, it is an argument against almost all work.
Do you consider all work "bad"?

If that's the absolute only motive for doing something that completely repulses you, to the point of leaving people with psychological dysfunctions like drug addiction? Yeah, that's always bad.

You keep adding properties to this debate that aren`t in the OP nor are they universally true in the manner you seem to be impying they are.
You brought up psychological dysfunction and drug abuse.
They are not an inherent properties within sex work

I know that part, I've said it several times. That doesn't necessarily mean that I'm wrong.

It does mean you are handicapped a priori in the attempt to be right.

... who is otherwise sexually healthy. It's an important distinction.

Not for you.
You`ve already stated that all sex workers are sex workers due to sexual trauma.

Do you mean to tell me you'd approve of your child/ sibling/ spouse becoming a sex worker?

Yes.
I married a sex worker.

 

[Storm]

For the third or maybe fourth time The vast majority of people do some type of work that I`m willing to bet they`d rather not have to do for economic reasons.
Your argument is not an argument against sex work, it is an argument against almost all work.
Do you consider all work "bad"?

Already answered that.

You keep adding properties to this debate that aren`t in the OP nor are they universally true in the manner you seem to be impying they are.
You brought up psychological dysfunction and drug abuse.
They are not an inherent properties within sex work

Google "sex work and drug abuse" and tell me there's not a correlation.

It does mean you are handicapped a priori in the attempt to be right.

I'm not "attempt[ing] to be right." I'm stating my feelings.

Not for you.
You`ve already stated that all sex workers are sex workers due to sexual trauma.

Yes for me, and no I haven't.

Yes.
I married a sex worker.

Well, then you're an incredible minority. Tell me you can at least understand that much.

How would SHE feel about a daughter following in her footsteps?

 

[Skwim]

Then what are you arguing?

Not really arguing anything. Just trying to point out the irrelevancy of PTSDs and steering clear of it.

I do not for a second believe that you can't see the difference between prostitution and modeling.

As much as I see the difference between the laying on of hands by a fundie preacher and laying on of hands by a wrestler. And while you may equate working in porn to prostitution, let's not recast the issue when it isn't called for. In any case, if you choose not see my point, fine.

 

[Storm]

Not really arguing anything. Just trying to point out the irrelevancy of PTSDs and steering clear of it.

As much as I see the difference between the laying on of hands by a fundie preacher and laying on of hands by a wrestler. And while you may equate working in porn to prostitution, let's not recast the issue when it isn't called for. In any case, if you choose not see my point, fine.

I do see your point. I happen to think it's semantic quibbling over superficial commonality which only serves to confuse the real issues.

As for "recasting the issue," what is the functional difference between sex for money on and off camera?

 

[Walkntune]

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...sg=AFQjCNF2E1zrCS6AWC9pQNHFEbyLmQFdwA&cad=rja

 

[Skwim]

I do see your point. I happen to think it's semantic quibbling over superficial commonality which only serves to confuse the real issues.

Which you see as ____________________ ?

As for "recasting the issue," what is the functional difference between sex for money on and off camera?

If I understand what you're getting at, the "functional" workings are pretty much the same. However, just like pulling a trigger in war and pulling it in an act of murder, there are aspects that differentiate the two.

In prostitution the objective is to bring a john to orgasm as quickly as possible. A someone who is almost always an unknown to the prostitute, and hopefully disease free and not violent. In porno the objective is to satisfy the production, which may or may not entail satisfying a partner. Orgasm is not necessarily a requirement. And from my understanding, the participants are regularly checked for STDs. Many porn workers are well acquainted with one another, and can often choose whom they'll work with. There is a comradery among porn workers that is totally absent in prostitution. Also, porn workers work with other porn workers on an equal basis, which doesn't exist with a prostitute and her john. So, while killing a person in battle is functionally the same as killing a person in murder, functionality isn't the whole story.

 

[Storm]

I don't agree, but the topic is rather depressing. I'll come back later.

 

[Skwim]

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...sg=AFQjCNF2E1zrCS6AWC9pQNHFEbyLmQFdwA&cad=rja

So you readily buy into undocumented/unsupported claims and statistics. Okay, just so we know where your thinking is coming from.

 

[Walkntune]

So you readily buy into undocumented/unsupported claims and statistics. Okay, just so we know where your thinking is coming from.

So would you want your little girl to grow up and be involved in porn? Why or why not?

 

[Skwim]

So would you want your little girl to grow up and be involved in porn? Why or why not?

Non sequitur.

 

[linwood]

Already answered that.

I must have missed it but unless your answer was "yes" you hold a biased inconsistent view.

Google "sex work and drug abuse" and tell me there's not a correlation.

Google "chefs and alcoholism" and tell me there isn`t a correlation.
Does that mean working as a chef is "bad"?
You also know very well that correlation does not equate to causation.

Yes for me, and no I haven't.

I regret every time I respond to a post of yours Storm.
You consistently attempt to manipulate the properties of a debate into a "this or that" argument and then manipulate "this and that" into a position of meaninglessness.
It would be infuriating if I wasn`t aware of your tendencies.

You have stated that sex work is extraordinarily disagreeable to anyone who is sexually healthy, leaving the only possible alternative for working in the sex industry being a state of sexual dysfunction.
Therefore the only possible conclusion is that all sex workers are either sexually dysfunctional or miserable in their choice of profession.

Even you must see the irrationality of that position.
You won`t admit to it but I`m certain you must see it.

The fact is that many sex workers "really like the easy money".
I don`t blame them.

Well, then you're an incredible minority. Tell me you can at least understand that much.

Yes, and this means what exactly?
My entire worldview and thought processes are in an incredible minority.
Looking around me I can`t see much worth emulating in the majority view on just about anything.

How would SHE feel about a daughter following in her footsteps?

She doesn`t have a problem with it as I don`t have a problem with it.

 

[Storm]

I regret every time I respond to a post of yours Storm.

Don't, then. I'll recover somehow.

 

[linwood]

Don't, then. I'll recover somehow.

 

[Storm]

What did you expect?

 

[Danmac]

Non sequitur.

Why wont you answer the question?