Why Islam makes more sense conceptually of all the Abrahamic faiths

[shunyadragon]

I never did that! I simply said some Nazis were atheists and Nazis killed more Christians than Jews.

Not more Christian Germans than Jews in concentration camps.

 

[Spiderman]

What about it?

Christians have a longer history of violence too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_violence

WWI was nation against nation for God, King and country.

WWII we've already discussed the role of Christians in the holocaust.

Buddhism and Hinduism haven't been free from blood shed either.

And if you want to join the atheists, we can talk about communism.

That article you posted was actually incredibly optimistic about the declining levels of violence overall in the twenty first century. I'm a glass half-full kinds guy. How about you?

Yes, the article said a lot that was encouraging.

Jesus never approved of killing and condemned it. So, that behavior is not Christian. It is very Muslim behavior on the other hand.

Muhammad was brutal, violent, and clearly sadistic in the Qur'an.

Ww1 and WW2 were not "holy wars".
Some of them tried to use Religion sure, but they both had people of mixed faith or no faith on both sides.

It was political. Jihad on the other hand is a "holy war" a type of "crusade", and there has been much of that in the 21st century.

Im concerned most about the suffering and freedom of speech today.

It is oppressed in many Muslim-majority countries as we speak.

I don't see Europe, Russia, Canada, America, or Australia oppressing non-christians like Saudi-Arabia oppresses non-muslims.

If i saw that happening, it would make me just as angry.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yes, the article said a lot that was encouraging.

Jesus never approved of killing and condemned it. So, that behavior is not Christian. It is very Muslim behavior on the other hand.

Muhammad was brutal, violent, and clearly sadistic in the Qur'an.

Ww1 and WW2 were not "holy wars".
Some of them tried to use Religion sure, but they both had people of mixed faith or no faith on both sides.

It was political. Jihad on the other hand is a "holy war" a type of "crusade", and there has been much of that in the 21st century.

Im concerned most about the suffering and freedom of speech today.

It is oppressed in many Muslim-majority countries as we speak.

I don't see Europe, Russia, Canada, America, or Australia oppressing non-christians like Saudi-Arabia oppresses non-muslims.

If i saw that happening, it would make me just as angry.

One of the struggles for many Christians is recognising that it was the same God in the OT as the NT. The God of Wrath and Vengeance in the OT is the same God of love in the NT. If you can not reconcile the dichotomy you will struggle.

One of my favourite verses to help make sense of it:

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

Ecclesiastes 1:1-8

When Jesus came, the Jews expected their Messiah to be a warrior king like King David who would defeat the Romans. However that was not what God intended.

As Muhammad said:

The unbelievers planned to imprison, murder or expel you (Muhammad) from your city. They make evil plans but God too plans and God's plans are the best.
Surah 8:30

 

[Spiderman]

One of the struggles for many Christians is recognising that it was the same God in the OT as the NT. The God of Wrath and Vengeance in the OT is the same God of love in the NT. If you can not reconcile the dichotomy you will struggle.

One of my favourite verses to help make sense of it:

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

Ecclesiastes 1:1-8

When Jesus came, the Jews expected their Messiah to be a warrior king like King David who would defeat the Romans. However that was not what God intended.

As Muhammad said:

The unbelievers planned to imprison, murder or expel you (Muhammad) from your city. They make evil plans but God too plans and God's plans are the best.
Surah 8:30

The God of the Old Testament was nothing like Jesus.

I despise everything in the Bible that goes against my conscience or resembles Nazi Germany.

The God of the OT was like Adolf Hitler in many ways!

 

[shunyadragon]

The God of the Old Testament was nothing like Jesus.

I despise everything in the Bible that goes against my conscience or resembles Nazi Germany.

The God of the OT was like Adolf Hitler in many ways!

In Christianity the OT and the NT are in the Bible inseparable. The NT is not totally innocent. The Book of Revelation, and some of Paul' statements concerning Jews are more than questionable.

 

[Dawnofhope]

The God of the Old Testament was nothing like Jesus.

I despise everything in the Bible that goes against my conscience or resembles Nazi Germany.

The God of the OT was like Adolf Hitler in many ways!

In the days of old tribalism was the norm along with paganism. One tribe fought another. The defeated tribesman were killed, sometimes eaten. Women and children were taken as slaves if they were lucky. Women often had no rights and were seen as property. People had little or no education and would roam the lands for food before agriculture was established. It was a ‘kill or be killed’ way of life. God picked whom He pleased to establish His laws and Teach His ways. He enabled His people to survive the onslaught of their adversaries. It wasn’t pretty but it got the job done. There was no other way.

 

[Spiderman]

In the days of old tribalism was the norm along with paganism. One tribe fought another. The defeated tribesman were killed, sometimes eaten. Women and children were taken as slaves if they were lucky. Women often had no rights and were seen as property. People had little or no education and would roam the lands for food before agriculture was established. It was a ‘kill or be killed’ way of life. God picked whom He pleased to establish His laws and Teach His ways. He enabled His people to survive the onslaught of their adversaries. It wasn’t pretty but it got the job done. There was no other way.

Well, God needs a new Prophet and new Scriptures!

That old toxic mass-killing savage garbage just misleads all sorts of people who misuse it, and it enables them in their depravity!

 

[stvdv]

The issue is what are the appropriate consequences. Clearly not those in the Quran and Torah that were designed for very different societies.

Once again, any punishments or consequences as outlined in the Quran or OT are simply not appropriate for these modern times.

I knew we were on the same frequency with this. That was all @PopeADope and @stvdv were just saying. Quran is flawed in this age.

As long as Muslims refuse to accept this flaw in the Quran (not applicable anymore in this age) AND keep doing this, there is a problem in the world. If they stick to Quran verse 5:51 (stay in Muslim country) the problem stays in their own country, and then it is "kind of okay". They stay barbaric, their choice (we are all "for freedom" aren't we). They can not and should not impose this behavior on the West. Of course some Muslims there won't like this lack of freedom, so better not even know the West, hence all the verses in Quran not to mingle with "unbelievers". It suddenly all makes sense to me, because jealousy will start and discrimination will start.

Conclusion: Best to keep Islam and West cultures separated IMO. Until they let go of Quran verses "against the West". They their freedom, we ours.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Well, God needs a new Prophet and new Scriptures!

That old toxic mass-killing savage garbage just misleads all sorts of people who misuse it, and it enables them in their depravity!

Baha’is believe God has sent a new prophet with a new message.

http://www.bahai.org/bahaullah/

 

[stvdv]

Your neglecting the fact that the Holocaust was just a continuation of the pogroms against the Jews, and carried out by predominantly Christians. Have you ever read Martin Luther's "The Jews & their Lies" Hitler patterned his holocaust on this:

From: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/martin-luther-quot-the-jews-and-their-lies-quot

What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews? Since they live among us, we dare not tolerate their conduct, now that we are aware of their lying and reviling and blaspheming. If we do, we become sharers in their lies, cursing and blasphemy. Thus we cannot extinguish the unquenchable fire of divine wrath, of which the prophets speak, nor can we convert the Jews. With prayer and the fear of God we must practice a sharp mercy to see whether we might save at least a few from the glowing flames. We dare not avenge ourselves. Vengeance a thousand times worse than we could wish them already has them by the throat. I shall give you my sincere advice:

First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly and I myself was unaware of it will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know.

Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them that they are not masters in our country, as they boast, but that they are living in exile and in captivity, as they incessantly wail and lament about us before God.

Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them.

There is more . . .

Thank you. This was all we needed here. This is the correct information. Belittling others' faith is 1st violence, starting 2nd, 3rd violent religion.

Key problem: Religions claiming "Our way is the highway" + "Evangelizing" = disrespectful [soul level, Ad Hominem] imposing it on others

Solution: The Bahai type of way "All ways are highways" + "non Evangelizing" [others' way is already okay, with exception of imposing stuff]

Ironically there is 1 problem left in the world = Evangelizing. That was the whole Lesson God wanted to teach us "Do not judge (others' religion)"

Mission Accomplished [But other "mission(ary work)" these imposing religions had in mind]. Learn that 3 fingers point to you if 1 points to the other

 

[Dawnofhope]

I knew we were on the same frequency with this. That was all @PopeADope and @stvdv were just saying. Quran is flawed in this age.

Ok then. Why didn’t you just say so lol.

As long as Muslims refuse to accept this flaw in the Quran (not applicable anymore in this age) AND keep doing this, there is a problem in the world. If they stick to Quran verse 5:51 (stay in Muslim country) the problem stays in their own country, and then it is "kind of okay". They stay barbaric, their choice (we are all "for freedom" aren't we). They can not and should not impose this behavior on the West. Of course some Muslims there won't like this lack of freedom, so better not even know the West, hence all the verses in Quran not to mingle with "unbelievers". It suddenly all makes sense to me, because jealousy will start and discrimination will start.

As the Christian West has had to adapt to modernity, so too is the Islamic world. It’s just taking a little longer for historic reasons.

This interesting video gives great insight into the rise and fall of the Muslim world. It also helps us to understand why they have lagged so far behind the West.

Conclusion: Best to keep Islam and West cultures separated IMO. Until they let go of Quran verses "against the West". They their freedom, we ours.

Stopping Muslims travelling to the West and living in the West won’t work and will greatly aggravate the problem IMHO.

 

[stvdv]

I've read that.
Martin Luther was a vile creature imo
That is as disgusting as some of the Islamic leaders who describe Jews as "Baboons, monkeys, pigs, and scum of the earth!"

Is it not ironical. Christian Martin Luther THINKING "my way is highway" ending up 180 degrees wrong. Ignoring Christ's "do not judge (obvious incl. others' religion)"

Is it not sublime, divine plot (Martin Luther King) finally addressing the major problem "discrimination" in Christianity [and other religions]

For thousands of years Christians (still) had it all wrong. Super arrogantly thinking they were the only right ones. And 90+% of them still thinks this way

Humanity comes much closer to "the truth" then any of the evangelizing religions in the past ever were. Humanity is what Jesus taught us.

I did read Martin Luther King was a baptist minister. Baptists are known for evangelizing (disrespectful) behavior. But maybe he was an exception.

Anyway big changes start with small steps. So Messengers need not be perfect. They need to be perfect enough to make 1 small change.

We all know people "do not change (baby steps at best)". Evolution goes slow. Changing into bad mostly easier than into good it seems.

In that light I am fine that Muhammad allegedly was barbaric, hence he were killed before completing his task. Just common senses IMO.

And seeing how we are now in 2018, all little steps indeed made a big change. Little less barbaric times now. God is quite good after all

 

[stvdv]

Ok then. Why didn’t you just say so lol.

Sometimes I feel it before I can put it in words in the perfect way. That is an art I am still learning. And besides that I learn/improve 24/7 also

As the Christian West has had to adapt to modernity, so too is the Islamic world. It’s just taking a little longer for historic reasons.

This interesting video gives great insight into the rise and fall of the Muslim world. It also helps us to understand why they have lagged so far behind the West.

Very important to remember. We all know "people don't change (baby steps at best)". I see my own "baby steps", even go back sometimes.
Thanks for the video. Long one, I will watch it now. I am curious to hear about this. Understanding each other is the first step to peace IMO

Stopping Muslims travelling to the West and living in the West won’t work and will greatly aggravate the problem IMHO.

I did not say stop Muslims travelling to the West. I said "stop them as long as they don't respect our culture". Big difference. The best way to change someone, is to "be silent". They need their time to figure out what they really want [we don't want Muslim to impose on the West, so we should give example not to impose on them; so stay away from them]. Also "no kind of evangelizing" the other way around. That is why I was so happy to read that Italy "have them sign to obey Italian Law". That is (IMHO) the least aggressive solution to make them see the light [green light to enter other country = by respecting other country].

So I agree that Christians need to stop evangelizing as well. They should be the smarter ones, being 700 years ahead, still living the wrong example.

 

[stvdv]

Baha’is believe God has sent a new prophet with a new message.
http://www.bahai.org/bahaullah/

Biggest mistake Jews, Christians, Muslims make is "Evangelizing". Thereby belittling the other, giving aggression resulting in wars.

Bahais hopefully learned this lesson. If not a new Messenger will come; I don't mind. Age 10 I said "If Jesus is on earth I will go and meet Him"
Bahaullah prophecized a new Messenger will come. Implying Bahai is imperfect, correct? Flaws will be addressed later.
But if it is all "God's Plan", I would not call it a flaw even. It is all happening according to Plan.

I was lucky I met Sai Baba. He was not a Messenger. So not bringing a new message/religion. Just updating the old ones.
Major update "All religions lead to God", and "belittle anyone and you belittle God" and "Hurt Never". Simple and basics.
Also he said "evangelizing leads to atheism". If finally all become atheists that would be ultimate evangelizing-irony

What can we do. Personally we can decide "not to fail". But it's not failing either. Just like @mud says "Life is stuff".
God gave free will, and forgot to put in a backdoor like in computer progamming [no easy reset here].
But God being perfect, forgot this on purpose of course

 

[Dawnofhope]

Sometimes I feel it before I can put it in words in the perfect way. That is an art I am still learning. And besides that I learn/improve 24/7 also

All good. We are all learning. The Abrahamic Faiths all have universal teachings that apply across the ages. Then there are Teachings that are for a set period of time. When Jesus elaborated on the greatest commandments to love God, your neighbour as yourself, and even your enemies He told us the story of the Good Samaritan. This is a story helping others no matter what their background.

Like 10:25-37

Muhammad’s laws about punishments for theft were for an appointed time which is now passed. Best to say this law is no longer applicable for this age. If you say Muhammad was in error, the Muslims will rightly take exception.

Very important to remember. We all know "people don't change (baby steps at best)". I see my own "baby steps", even go back sometimes.
Thanks for the video. Long one, I will watch it now. I am curious to hear about this. Understanding each other is the first step to peace IMO

I found the video last night and found myself watching the whole thing, it was so well presented. The speaker is a Muslim scholar. If you understand it, Islam today will make much more sense. Understanding each other is a key to peace as you say.

I did not say stop Muslims travelling to the West. I said "stop them as long as they don't respect our culture". Big difference. The best way to change someone, is to "be silent". They need their time to figure out what they really want [we don't want Muslim to impose on the West, so we should give example not to impose on them; so stay away from them]. Also "no kind of evangelizing" the other way around. That is why I was so happy to read that Italy "have them sign to obey Italian Law". That is (IMHO) the least aggressive solution to make them see the light [green light to enter other country = by respecting other country].

So I agree that Christians need to stop evangelizing as well. They should be the smarter ones, being 700 years ahead, still living the wrong example.

I think we just treat everyone equally and with respect no matter what race, nationality, or religion. If we make assumptions about others, that can cause misunderstandings. One law for all. If I am free to speak then my Muslim brothers and sisters should be too. If my Muslim friend needs to sign a piece of paper then so do I.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Biggest mistake Jews, Christians, Muslims made "Evangelizing". Thereby belittling the other, giving aggression resulting in wars.

Bahais hopefully learned this lesson. Else my wish when 10 y happens "If Jesus is on earth I will go and meet Him"
Bahaullah prophecized a new Messenger will come. Implying Bahai is imperfect, correct? Flaws will be addressed later.
But if it is all "God's Plan", I would not call it a flaw even. It is all happening according to Plan.

I was lucky I met Sai Baba. He was not a Messenger. So not bringing a new message/religion. Just updating the old ones.
Major update "All religions lead to God", and "belittle anyone and you belittle God" and "Hurt Never". Simple and basics.
Also he said "evangelizing leads to atheism". If finally all become atheists that would be ultimate evangelizing irony

What can we do. Personally we can decide "not to fail". But it's not failing either. Just like @mud says "Life is stuff".
God gave free will, and forgot to put in a backdoor like in computer progamming. Just 1 switch and all is smooth again.
But God being perfect, forgot this on purpose of course

We each need to read the reality of our life’s and find what works best for us. Sai Baba works well for you. The Baha’i Faith works well for me. We each have our journey and struggles on this life.

Moses taught the Hebrew peoples only. It was not a universal religion. Christ transformed Judaism into a new religion and asked His disciples to spread His Teachings throughout the world. This was successfully achieved. Had they have failed to carry out this Teaching then I would have been deprived the knowledge of Christ. As Moses laid the foundation for Christianity, Christ laid the foundation for Baha’u’llah.

Unfortunately with the passing of centuries many Muslims and Christians are confused. They present a muddled message that is neither based on Christ Teachings, nor reflective of the age we live in. The message lacks the eloquence and wisdom befitting the Divine origins of the One they represent .

Whether or not the Baha’i Faith eclipses Their Abrahamic cousins or sinks into oblivion time will tell.

 

[stvdv]

1: Muhammad’s laws about punishments for theft were for an appointed time which is now passed.
2: Best to say this law is no longer applicable for this age. If you say Muhammad was in error, the Muslims will rightly take exception.



I found the video last night and found myself watching the whole thing, it was so well presented. Understanding each other is a key to peace as you say.



3: I think we just treat everyone equally and with respect no matter what race, nationality, or religion. If we make assumptions about others, that can cause misunderstandings. One law for all. If I am free to speak then my Muslim brothers and sisters should be too. If my Muslim friend needs to sign a piece of paper then so do I.

1: True. Don't criticize Muhammad in His time. No Ad Hominem attack. But okay the way you put it
2: "Some things in Quran are no longer applicable in this age"...I even go as far as to say "in non-Muslim countries". I don't impose change on them.
3: Exactly, treat all the same. 1 Law for all. Muslims try to impose Sharia Law into the West is wrong. I respect their Law in their country. So should they
All I said was: Christians follow Muslim Law in Muslim Countries, so Muslims should follow Christian Law in Christians Countries.
Christians accept this in Muslim Countries [else of course they go to jail or worse]. But Muslims try to bring their Law into our countries. Wrong!
Quran 5:51. If Muslims try to impose Sharia in my country, they violate this verse. That is what creates the problems. Just follow this verse.

 

[stvdv]

Unfortunately with the passing of centuries many Muslims and Christians are confused. They present a muddled message that is neither based on Christ Teachings, nor reflective of the age we live in. The message lacks the eloquence and wisdom befitting the Divine origins of the One they represent .

I would not even put it in those words "they are confused". Feels like belittling them
I am sometimes confused also. The real problem is evangelizing if not allowed
There is never a problem if all just stick to the Law of the country they live in.
Evangelize this "Good News" ... Respect and follow the Law of the country you live in

Has been a very interesting thread, I have a good view now, with which I feel senang
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Understanding both sides gives peace and wisdom

 

[Dawnofhope]

I would not even put it in those words "they are confused". Feels like belittling them
I am sometimes confused also. That is no problem. Evangelizing is the only problem.
There is never a problem if all just stick to the Law of the country they live in.
Evangelize this "Good News" ... Respect and follow the Law of the country you live in

Has been a very interesting thread, I have a good view now, with which I feel senang
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Understanding both sides gives peace and wisdom

If you have talked as many Christians on RF as I have, then confused is a very mild description but I take your point. Some Christians are excellent communicators. I do volunteer work at a Christian medical centre that provides free health care for those most in need. Everyone else is Christian but in reality I am a devoted follower of Christ too and my coworkers are my brothers and sisters. There is one who I even introduced to RF. Soon we will study Judaism together.

It’s good to have you here. Another GP in my town is from Sai Baba and he runs a low cost clinic for those in need. We both have universal and altruistic leanings so this is the most important thing. It’s been good to talk to you. Of course Islam is close to my heart currently as I seek to better my understanding. We’ll talk more soon I’m sure.

 

[stvdv]

If you have talked as many Christians on RF as I have, then confused is a very mild description but I take your point. Some Christians are excellent communicators. I do volunteer work at a Christian medical centre that provides free health care for those most in need. Everyone else is Christian but in reality I am a devoted follower of Christ too and my coworkers are my brothers and sisters. There is one who I even introduced to RF. Soon we will study Judaism together.

It’s good to have you here. Another GP in my town is from Sai Baba and he runs a low cost clinic for those in need. We both have universal and altruistic leanings so this is the most important thing. It’s been good to talk to you. Of course Islam is close to my heart currently as I seek to better my understanding. We’ll talk more soon I’m sure.

I can't stand Christians belittling others' religion. So agreed "confused is very mild". First thought was "this is belittling; but if they belittle you totally understandable [we need to protect ourselves, so we use words]". But even better to tell them the truth IMO . Sai Baba said "Nobody has the right to criticize/belittle your faith; and avoid those people". On RF I learned Ad Hominem, so now I tell them "Judge my religion = Ad Hominem attack. Stop or I'm gone". So I tell the truth, don't belittling, give a choice [Jesus said don't judge; they can't argue that, few tried, but always had to admit they were wrong]

Thanks I'm happy to have you here also. I also follow Christ/Muhammad. Sai Baba once introduced me to a Muslim woman saying "I will give you this lady as your wife". A fantastic woman. The perfect way "not to criticize Islam". Without that, seeing all trouble caused in name of Quran it would have been very hard for me "not to judge Islam". Now I only say "No" to certain violent acts. Islam is a great religion. And Sai Baba is a fan of Islam and His previous incarnation Shirdi Sai Baba walked around as Muslim. I angred Sai Baba 4 times [not on purpose of course], that were minor things. He got so mad at me, yelling, that I almost died on the spot. Shirdi is said to be worse. So I rather stay safe. You don't hear me speak bad about Islam as religion. Having dreams of both is nice; nightmares I rather avoid.

If this GP has visited Sai Baba, I might have met him even in India [I stayed 10 years in the ashram]. I even might have met you when I was for 3 month in New Zealand. But chances in such a big country are very small. New Zealand is a wonderful country. Few of my family live there.