Why Islam makes more sense conceptually of all the Abrahamic faiths

[BilliardsBall]

Since the gospels are clearly derived from one another, agreement among them is to be expected and means nothing.

Sure, if the gospels are derived from one another--some scholars think so, some don't. I can read today 100 reports from yesterday's White House Press Conference. There will be many similarities, so they are clearly derived from another, right? You see the problem with assuming similar reporting is collusion between news agencies--or gospel writers?

And if the 12 NT writers--not just the gospel authors--colluded, why did they collude? So they could all enjoy a limited income, be expelled from Judaism, and crucified by Rome?

 

[viole]

As to Ramadan, Most Islamic groups make an accommodation for high northern latitudes, but what is is I do not know.

Interesting. It seems there are some loci on the earth surface which are problematic for Islam. For instance far north and south could lead either to gluttony or starvation depending on the calender of Ramadam.

Another one is the point antipodal to Mecca. In which direction to Muslims pray when they are located there?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Curious Kelly what you say about these 2 links, as you live in USA
Nowadays I don't know which news to be fake or not

Oh, that first link is definitely us, though many of us are also heavily appalled. The second is easy to understand: Europeans came to America in part for religious freedom, but mostly corporate greed and overfilled European prisons. I don't know how Australia has managed to be somewhat more sane given similar founding history, but I've also been seeing disturbing news from just about everywhere in the former British Empire, including Canada, the one country I would've pegged as being so nice they couldn't do anything evil or stupid, LOL. When your country is founded on the premise that only through the suffering and removal and deaths of others can you be truly superior, you end up with what we have now. There are so many European Americans in the States who seriously feel their lack of melanin is the only source of worth they have. It'd be sad if it weren't so infuriating, and I say this as a white woman. We have "incels", which are men who blame women and wish to rape them because women don't want to have sex with them. They think it's our fault and not the fact they are evil creeps. We don't value honest appraisals of ourselves. Any attempt to clarify US history outside of KKK-written elementary school textbooks is seen as promoting "white guilt." They have sacrificed their souls to a self-serving dogma, both theologically and politically, where nothing they do deserves punishment and everyone else must suffer horribly for doing relatively nothing. This is hardly new, as we can see this same soul-sacrificing all throughout both Testaments in the bible. Long speeches are made of how we're all sinners, it is just that the privileged won't have to bother with actual consequences according to the view they have specifically subscribed to so they don't have to improve their situation. If there are poor black people, they are lazy. If there are poor white people, black people made them poor.

We cannot change the evil of our past, but we can sure as hell work towards not being evil in the future. Democrats are as just to blame, as well, for they love to camp out for days protesting, but strangely never visit things like voting booths. Trump can't be changed by protests. You have to care about people being upset to care about protests. He sees angry throngs on TV and just says they are throngs cheering him on and Make America Great Again by hunting down the protesters. Someone like him only cares about money and he was too stubborn to let go of his illegal business holdings while President, so instead of protest, people should be voting for anyone against him and not buying anything Trump related. I don't believe in boycotting distributors like Amazon because everyone shouldn't be punished for one line of merchandise. Just don't buy the merch and capitalism will take care of it. From what I've been reading, this is happening to Ivanka. We just need to punish ALL OF THEM that way. Capitalism has its evils but also its uses. It just depends on how creative you are and how much of a spine you have.

We have let our egos turn us into the richest 3rd world country on the planet. It's not like I feel we DESERVE to be a superpower, but it IS depressing when we don't value the responsibilities required for the status.

- God wants his message to be received by everyone.
- God gave his message to one person and asked him to spread the word.

Yeah. Even though I feel God talks to me, if He wants to talk to you, it'd be better to just do it directly. My only message to you from God is: don't trust random people.

And while I haven't met a theist yet who can give a reasonable explanation of why they believe in their god(s), I would be pleasantly surprised if I got one some day.

As I get older I start to question whether I believe in God or "Bible God". I feel a divine presence. I sense fate. I can see things (metaphorically speaking) that others simply don't. However, I believe the "Way" should have the humility to say that it's possible religious biases are just copied from someone else. I mean, obviously religious ideas are traded as much as merchandise, even THROUGH merchandise, but I mean that when I say I believe in God, is it truly one of the known ones or an unknown one or is the entire concept irrelevant to reality? Hard to say. I tend to lean more towards the universe being a macro-entity of sorts, with other gods throughout human history, at least, being mortals who got superpowers or at least the legends got out of hand or their descendants. I stopped being purely monotheistic when I realized I had as much evidence for "my" God as I did all the others (and frankly, there are probably more pieces of evidence for other gods or at least the legends lend better to something that might have been real-ish).

(If I make no sense, been having asthma problems and taking meds for it and I haven't really slept well for several days and my brain is fried, LOL.)

I do not believe it can be demonstrated that the Baha'i co-opted anything, except as a negative assumption on your part on the nature of Theism.

There is "nothing new under the sun". While I can accept the position of progressive revelation, that still means it came from a previous foundation. It shouldn't be a sin to admit it.

such as social teachings like the mandatory education of all children

Well, that's a plus.

Discussion of theistic religion is not really productive with you, because your up front aggressive atheism does not lead to a productive dialogue.

I've learned it is usually not the atheists with the fingers in the ears. I respect talking to you, as I respect talking to Penguin. Atheists (and many theists) have to listen to horrendously slapped-together "arguments" all the time. It gets irritating. Instead of being all defensive, understand the kind of idiocy we listen to and then move on from that.

the Baha'i Faith is the most reasonable

And I think that every religion from the Abrahamic tradition says it. It might be a step up in cases, but over 100 years have passed and I disagree that we should always hold on to the past just because we liked that particular one. We live in the here and now and must make the future.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Interesting. It seems there are some loci on the earth surface which are problematic for Islam. For instance far north and south could lead either to gluttony or starvation depending on the calender of Ramadam.

Another one is the point antipodal to Mecca. In which direction to Muslims pray when they are located there?

Ciao

- viole

In Islam, both Sunni and Shia, there is some sort of "authority body" that makes these rulings. To start and end Ramadan, they do not use a calendar, somebody in Mecca, actually SEES the moon, or not.

 

[shunyadragon]

There is "nothing new under the sun". While I can accept the position of progressive revelation, that still means it came from a previous foundation. It shouldn't be a sin to admit it.

There is a very big difference between 'co-opting ancient religions,' and acknowledging that the religions of the world are a part of the heritage, and there is an inherent common truth woven the religions that reflect the spiritual evolution of humanity.

I've learned it is usually not the atheists with the fingers in the ears. I respect talking to you, as I respect talking to Penguin. Atheists (and many theists) have to listen to horrendously slapped-together "arguments" all the time. It gets irritating. Instead of being all defensive, understand the kind of idiocy we listen to and then move on from that.

And I think that every religion from the Abrahamic tradition says it. It might be a step up in cases, but over 100 years have passed and I disagree that we should always hold on to the past just because we liked that particular one. We live in the here and now and must make the future.

The Baha'i Faith does not hold on to the past, and it decidedly looks to the future spiritual evolution of humanity.

 

[DanielR]

Judaism makes the most sense (thank you Maimonides and Co.)

 

[sojourner]

Aren't most religions about making all others wrong?

No. Most religions are about the pathway to the Divine, or the divine nature.

 

[shunyadragon]

Judaism makes the most sense (thank you Maimonides and Co.)

A religion that believes that only one tribe the Hebrews were chosen by God to share God's only message to only one tribe is hardly making the most sense. It is the extreme narrow view of exclusiveness of all the Abrahamic religions and in fact all the religions of the world.

 

[Revoltingest]

No. Most religions are about the pathway to the Divine, or the divine nature.

But each believes that one's own path is the correct one.
The very different other ones would then be incorrect.
And many believers make a big deal of this, eg,
Muslim belief that Christianity has been corrupted,
& they haven't embraced the later true prophet.

 

[sojourner]

But each believes that one's own path is the correct one.
The very different other ones would then be incorrect

Not necessarily. Most spiritual people will say that their path is right for them, and acknowledge that others’ paths are right for those people.

 

[Revoltingest]

Not necessarily.

I'd never say there are no exceptions.
There are many.
But there are also a great many who say the others are wrong.

Most spiritual people will say that their path is right for them, and acknowledge that others’ paths are right for those people.

I don't know about most.
But I see so many who openly say that theirs is the true
one, & even go farther to say that the others are wrong.

 

[Ellen Brown]

But each believes that one's own path is the correct one.
The very different other ones would then be incorrect.
And many believers make a big deal of this, eg,
Muslim belief that Christianity has been corrupted,
& they haven't embraced the later true prophet.

In a dire way, it is all quite comical. As a species, humanity is quite selfish and immature. The exclusivism is irritating to me at times. I've had personal experience with the Muslims saying their religion is the only true religion when in many ways it is a carbon copy of Judaism. Mormons do the same thing but are more sweet about it. Catholics also, but I just ignore them.

My "theory" about Muslims is they don't have the forgiveness that Jesus Christ secured for them, so they spend a disproportionate amount of time praying for forgiveness. Otherwise, in many ways they are just very conservative, Arabic speaking, Christians.

 

[danieldemol]

I'd never say there are no exceptions.
There are many.
But there are also a great many who say the others are wrong.

I don't know about most.
But I see so many who openly say that theirs is the true
one, & even go farther to say that the others are wrong.

That’s what I like about the liberal approach to religions, it acknowledges that religion is mostly personal preference, and one need not change religion to be liberal, just reject such fundamentals as are harmful to society.

 

[Brickjectivity]

But each believes that one's own path is the correct one.
The very different other ones would then be incorrect.
And many believers make a big deal of this, eg,
Muslim belief that Christianity has been corrupted,
& they haven't embraced the later true prophet.

This does happen a lot. I agree with Sojourner that it is unspiritual and that there are spiritual and unspiritual points if view among the religious. I think this is also true among the non religious, and you may well be an example though I cannot judge that. I think the heart of the matter is whether an individual has freedom, and for there to be freedom a religious institution ought to encourage a mixture of believer and unbeliever based upon the understanding that no one can change that.

When children and adults feel they must perform and look like believers that is the time when things become unspiritual. The focus needs to shift from mere appearances, but it cannot happen when everyone is expected to perform. Its like when a corporation starts encouraging employees to support a cause, and people hide their genuine thoughts about that cause and begrudge their donations. Thats not spiritual but compulsion.

 

[Revoltingest]

I think this is also true among the non religious, and you may well be an example though I cannot judge that.

My biggest criticism of others' beliefs is that they're "not even wrong".
In the material world, I see value laden things in the material world as
neither right nor wrong, ie, just preferences, eg, socialism v capitalism.

 

[Brickjectivity]

My biggest criticism of others' beliefs is that they're "not even wrong".
In the material world, I see value laden things in the material world as
neither right nor wrong, ie, just preferences, eg, socialism v capitalism.

I am having trouble understanding whats in quotes, but if I grasp your meaning there is no point trying to criticize people for thinking we are right. That is a lesson that comes with maturity I think, so the criticism cannot be heard just any time. You can sit a child in a chair and have them repeat things back to you, walk away thinking they have learned, their heads nodding and able to parrot back your reasoning about incorrectness. You can try teaching it to college students with even worse results. Their desire to make the best choices will still set up in them the hallucinatory expectation of being correct. I think you can reliably teach liberality but not humility. Besides some ideas are better than others.

 

[Revoltingest]

I am having trouble understanding whats in quotes......

It's from the English translation of the Wolfgang Pauli quote.
If something cannot be proven or disproven, then it's "not even wrong".
Example:
Claiming that undetectable pink unicorns scamper about,
Or that Jesus died for our sins.

 

[Brickjectivity]

It's from the English translation of the Wolfgang Pauli quote.
If something cannot be proven or disproven, then it's "not even wrong".
Example:
Claiming that undetectable pink unicorns scamper about,
Or that Jesus died for our sins.

For what I am about to post I give thanks to The Reader: I forget we are in a conversation about Islam being reasonable relative to non-Islam. Wolfgang Pauli is an important figure, and its a relevant quote.

 

[Ellen Brown]

For what I am about to post I give thanks to The Reader: I forget we are in a conversation about Islam being reasonable relative to non-Islam. Wolfgang Pauli is an important figure, and its a relevant quote.

The forerunner of Islam is spoken of in Gen 16:12, and it certainly has worked out that way. I often feel that Muslims have a little brother complex toward the Jews. Being Muslim, sometimes I think that Jews are insufferably arrogant, and others sweet and loving. GAH !!! They are a matter of great frustration to me; just like my older siblings.

From what I can determine, Muslims adopted many of the practices of Jews; the Women's Head-covering, the prohibition of Pork, and so on. It is a mystery to me why to most Christians, "Shabat" is Sunday. For the Jews and Seventh day Adventists, and for the Muslims it is Friday. Maybe I should just observe Wednesday as my day of religious significance? For me, the major difference between Muslims and Christians is the fate and role of Jesus Christ, while I think that Jews like totally don't get him one little bit.

Sometimes I wonder if Allah SWT sits on his throne in the Heavens and laughs at us?

 

[danieldemol]

The forerunner of Islam is spoken of in Gen 16:12, and it certainly has worked out that way. I often feel that Muslims have a little brother complex toward the Jews. Being Muslim, sometimes I think that Jews are insufferably arrogant, and others sweet and loving. GAH !!! They are a matter of great frustration to me; just like my older siblings.

From what I can determine, Muslims adopted many of the practices of Jews; the Women's Head-covering, the prohibition of Pork, and so on. It is a mystery to me why to most Christians, "Shabat" is Sunday. For the Jews and Seventh day Adventists, and for the Muslims it is Friday. Maybe I should just observe Wednesday as my day of religious significance? For me, the major difference between Muslims and Christians is the fate and role of Jesus Christ, while I think that Jews like totally don't get him one little bit.

Sometimes I wonder if Allah SWT sits on his throne in the Heavens and laughs at us?

I could be wrong, but I think for Jews and Seventh day adventists it is Saturday